Sorry, I know I am overdue for an update <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Things are going great, we are spending a lot of time together these days, and neither one of us is getting tired of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. My kids like her quite a bit, and she loves being with all of us, so that is wonderful. And of course when it's just the two of us, it is great too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I guess I feel myself slowly moving from the Infatuation phase into the Uncertainty phase, which the books say is perfectly normal and good. In other words, I am probably beginning to see her more as a normal human being than a goddess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. So, I am looking at things more realistically and assessing if aside from all the chemistry, similar outlooks on life and relationships, values, and personality, if our lifestyles and expectations will make us a happy couple.

I don't see anything that would be a showstopper or a red flag, but to be sure, I see things that are different between us. I mentioned the different sleep habits, and I see her really trying to change those. But there are a couple of other differences I see, and I need to figure out how that would work out.

For instance, she has a LOT of stuff laying all around her apartment, in big piles. We talked about it, and she is basically a pack rat... So, it's not just a matter of getting rid of her stuff, it's a matter of being able to let go of it, and I am not sure she can. I, on the other hand, like my house very stark and picked up, and I keep it that way (despite having kids <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). So, I don't like the idea of her moving in and slowly having my house fill up with piles. We may be able to POJA this, but for now it's on my watchlist. FWIW, she does say that she really wants to get rid of all the excess stuff, so at least the intent is there.

Another issue is eating. She does not cook at all, so she has cereal for breakfast and something at work for lunch, and likes to go out for dinner. I prefer to go out no more than 2-3 times a week, and eat in the rest of the days. It's not just a matter of $$$, but also of gaining weight, which I do if I go out too often. Also, she seems to have fairly fancy tastes, so when we go out it is not to the $15/person family place (e.g. Olive Garden) but more like $20-$30/person, with the occasional $40-50. Again, not a biggie on an individual basis, but can become an issue after months and months. So we need to figure this out. Again, she says she would rather stay home and make dinner together, so hopefully that's what will happen.

I think a lot of these differences come from her having lived on her own for a long time, with no kids. And so I think (hope?) that when she is with us, she will slowly "creep" more towards our lifestyle. But of course, I will let her do it on her own accord, and I will not [censored]-u-me that she will change very much, that would be a recipe for disaster.

So, that's about it. I am very happy with her, she is with me, and I think we are in this for the long haul. So now, we can sit back, relax, and enjoy each other's company, and see if we can build a happy life together. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Thoughts?

AGG

AGG,


Reality seeping in...thats a good thing


So maybe encourage her to learn to work on that now, before things progress between you. Maybe ask her if she would like some help, I know I need help in the pack rat (clutter) area, and no matter how good my intentions are, it's always helpful to have my husband encouraging me in that area, so I try harder in that area because I know it makes him happy.

Is it that she doesn't cook meaning doesn't know how? Or that she just doesn't like to cook, because cooking for ONE is so difficult at times?

And maybe you can compromise on the $20-$50 per person dinner dates when your kids are with their mom, with a few of the lesser expensive out to eat places when they are with
you?

And pay attention to the making dinner together comment, because that is probably what she means, that the two of you will work together to make dinner. Not her in cooking while you sit down and help the kids with school work or watch tv, and not her doing those things either. So you may want to dig for more information in that area.

The clutter issue is tricky. My sister has piles of stuff. She has them at her house & still has piles of stuff at my father's house She is unable to get rid of most of her stuff. It's not that she wants to but can't find the time it's that she clings to stuff. She will occasionally say she'd like to get rid of clutter but I don't think she considers her stuff as clutter. There are people you can hire who will help you de-clutter. They are sensitive to the fact some people have great difficulty letting things go.

Me? If I had a dumpster AND help I'd get rid half the house. This summer I plan on getting a dumpster & ex will rid the house of his crap. The ever so important army stuff from 20 years ago that has been moldering away in the garage since we bought this house 11 years ago. At the same time I will pitch things mercilessly. The thought of it makes me feel lighter.

The cooking thing. I know when the boys are with their father I don't usually cook for myself. If I have leftovers I'll heat them up. If she doesn't know how to cook maybe the two of you could take a class together. I plan on taking a Japanese cooking class with a friend this summer. Could be fun to learn new methods of cooking if you do it together.

TR:


This is good advice, TR, thanks. Like I said, G is very consistent in her desire to get rid of clutter. In fact, we decided to spend last weekend at her place to clear out clutter and organize. What I observed, though, was that while she wanted to get rid of "stuff", she could not part with almost any of it. For every item that to me seemed silly to have, she had a heartfelt answer of why she should keep it, if for no other reason than it may be worth money on Ebay.

I had quite a few issues with my ex regarding piles of her stuff laying around, so I am a little anxious about this trait in G - which, BTW, is on a much worse scale than my ex was.

Now, the one big difference is that G seems to want to change that, while my ex always told me that it was my problem and I needed to deal with it - so there is hope here.


I think it's both. She not only doesn't know how to cook, but does not own any pots and pans (I brought mine over yesterday to make some pasta). I know people can get by without cooking, but still, this seems odd to me. One of her reasons for not cooking was the cleanup, which again seems a little strange.


Yes, I want to clarify something - it is not that I want her to cook for me - I pride myself on being totally self sufficient when it comes to taking care of me and my kids (cooking, laundry, cleaning, etc) - so I do not look for a nanny/cook/maid. Not at all. But, I want someone who can be a partner in my life, which includes household chores like picking up after themselves, grocery shopping, cleaning/vacuuming, etc. Domestic support is not high on my EN list, but I know that I will start getting resentful if I do all of those chores while my partner sleeps or watches TV. And, I am seeing some signs that G has no interest/skills in domestic chores. And while I am fine taking care of me and the kids, I do not want my partner to be a third kid for me to look after.

I know we can hire a maid, I know we can hire a cleaning person, I know we can eat frozen dinners (BTW, I am not a great cook, but I certainly get by). But, knowing my personality, it may bother me that we would have to do all those things simply because my partner doesn't feel like doing them.

Again, I am not saying this is on a dealbreaker level, but it is definitely on the watchlist.

nams:


That is precisely what I see with G.


Well, on the one hand I pretty much know that one of my boundaries for us to ever live together would be to get rid of a lot of the clutter (either by ourselves or using an agency). But, my real concern is what will happen after that - would it simply start accummulating again?


I am the same way. I find that throwing out "stuff" is cathartic. Now you see how different G and I are in this regard.


Absolutely, and she said she would like to do that. So, once again, she seems very eager to change all these things that we both see as being different (sleep, cooking, clutter). And if she does, or we find a middle gound, that will be great. This is why I am saying that the next few months will tell us if we can come up with a compromise/solution and both be happy.

The bottom line to me still is that we are crazy about each other and view (most) things the same way. So I really do hope that we can conquer these differences we are seeing. Time will tell.

AGG

AGG, the comedian! the set up with a deadpan tone:

Just to confirm, [color:"blue"]I, on the other hand, like my house very stark and picked up, and I keep it that way (despite having kids )[/color] and G's traits aren't a red flag! [color:"red"]For instance, she has a LOT of stuff laying all around her apartment, in big piles. We talked about it, and she is basically a pack rat... So, it's not just a matter of getting rid of her stuff, it's a matter of being able to let go of it, and I am not sure she can. [/color] and to prove that this is not a red flag from experience: [color:"red"]I had quite a few issues with my ex regarding piles of her stuff laying around, so I am a little anxious about this trait in G - which, BTW, is on a much worse scale than my ex was. [/color]

that was the set up, and then the punch line:

[color:"blue"] Domestic support is not high on my EN list, but I know that I will start getting resentful if I do all of those chores while my partner sleeps or watches TV. And, I am seeing some signs that G has no interest/skills in domestic chores. [/color]
or how about

I know people can get by without cooking, but still, [color:"red"]this seems odd to me. One of her reasons for not cooking was the cleanup, which again seems a little strange. [/color]


LOL! AGG, you are too much. . .

She is definately way high on the N and you are way high on the S scale. . . from your last description, IF you had issues with X on lack of starkness, you are going to run into the exact same issue, regardless of her dedication to try. . . sorry bud, you are slowly coming out of the infatuation stage. . . we are down to 70:30 on the probability scale.

Its not in her nature and she won't get very far with that. . . in other words, are you going to get resentful when she has her ups and downs? starkness is a bit excessive, but then again, I am an N.

What i am reading and iNtuiting from your meager description, is that most likely, she has lived alone and not done very well on the marriage scene for precisely those qualities that you wish that she would change, and she would like to change, but after 35 yo, its psychologically very hard, and requires massive determination. .. she might have it. . . BUT she will be doing it for you. . . not for herself. . . not the right reason to get too much farther down the road.

My girlfriend is almost exactly like G, and i can deal with her, since S is definately NOT my forte. . . however, here is where your challenge lies, in order for G to move in with you, you have to reach the middle ground. . . and several middle grounds are:

1) she trusts you to throw out some of her things that have [color:"blue"]possibilities[/color] from her perception.

2)Since you typed possible junk for money reasons on Ebay, then she has upside down issues with money, meaning saving useless junk for Ebay and spending lots of money eating out.

3) If your eating habits are different about breakfast and lunch, and that annoys you, then meals 3x a day are going to be an issue for YOU. (why, i haven't a clue. . . who cares what she eats for breakfast unless its causing a health problem. ) or is it the dishes issue? You are going to have to give up any food / control issues. . .

4) cooking / dishes. . . or lack there of. . . the POJA agreement is that meals are going to have to be a joint project for a long time, so that she learns your way without you getting resentful, or her trying herself, failing, and then you being the parent / authority figure. .. my GF is like that. . . and she agrees to do dishes and house keeping together, otherwise, she can't do every well. . .

[color:"blue"] G can't function like AGG in SERIAL, but can participate in PARALLEL up to a certain degree. . . [/color]

5) the MY house issue just came up. . . you are going to have to discuss that so you don't throw too many current house rules at her, she is not one of the children, so she doesn't have to abide by those children rules.. . so what rules are you to going agree on, and what are you going to bend on?

6) there's a sleep timing issue? do you want an AGG clone?

I have it down to 50-50 probability, and its not looking permanent for AGG. . .. ans seriously AGG, she sounds a tad ADD, having problems staying focused or easily overwhelmed with the tasks of managing a well kept house. . . but, as i always say,

THE FUTURE IS STILL UNCERTAIN!

sorry AGG, same issues for you, different packaging. .

wiftty

Wiftty,

Thanks for the well thought out post, I truly appreciate your analysis.

For the most part, I agree with you. The things that I have observed recently with G are giving me food for thought, and that is precisely what I am doing with them. Part of it is moving from Infatuation to Uncertainty, though another part of it is more easily explained - it is simply getting to know a person better.

So, at first we only corresponded and talked on the phone, and then we met, and all was great. Eventually, I got around to seeing her place, and observing some of her habits, and that is when I started seeing some of the differences. So, it's a logical progression - the more you get to know a person, the more you find out about them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Some will be good, some will be cause for concern.


I guess it's a matter of semantics. I don't consider all differences to automatically be red flags, it is a matter of degree. To me, automatic red flags would be things like addictions or dependencies, dishonesty, bankruptcies, mental disorders, etc. So, I don't see a cluttered house or sleep habits to be automatic red flags. But, there is no question that these differences may be big enough to eventually become deal breakers - that is why I said they are on my watchlist. Anyway, I think it's a matter of semantics, and I am definitely aware of these potential issues, no matter what we call them.


This may sound contradictory, but what I meant is this: I don't need domestic support from the standpoint that I can cook, clean, etc etc perfectly fine, and have been for years. So, all I need is for my partner to be similar, i.e. be able to take care of her own "stuff". But, if I end up having to clean/pick up after my partner, then that would become annoying. You see what I mean? I don't need a maid, nor do I want to be one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


That is very true. This is why I am trying to simply observe her, and discuss how we can find a middle ground, rather than trying to change her. I know that the only changes that will stick are those that will come from her own free will (with my help, if she wants it), so that is what I am watching for.


Agreed. Still trying to understand this in her.


I have no issue with her breakfast/lunch habits, I simply stated what they were. The cooking stuff is a bit more complex. I think it's not that she doesn't cook that bothers me, but the more underlying message that I am sensing. The more we talk, the more she says that she doesn't like to cook because it "takes too much time", and there are so many better things to do. Now, I agree, cooking does take time, but then again, to me, that is part of life, as is cleaning, vacuuming, picking up, etc.

So, maybe this is the real underlying issue or difference between us that I need to understand. Perhaps she views all of these things (cooking, cleaning, dishes, picking up, straightening up, etc) as one big waste of time, and instead she would prefer to shop, eat out, watch TV etc. Again, to each their own, but I am not wired this way. And I am afraid that if she is "play before work", that it may become a source of constant friction. So, as I keep saying over and over, I am aware of this difference but I need to understand it more and see what to make of it. I certainly do not see it yet as insurmountable enough for us to call it quits.


That is precisely what I plan to find out over the next few months of dating - can we find a happy middle ground.


Let me clarify this. It is mostly an issue of weekends, since on weekdays I am up and out by 7am. On weekends, I typically get up by 7:30, and hit the ground running. It's not just because of the kids, I do this even when I am alone. I am very active, and I can clean the house, go grocery shopping, do bills, read the paper, and do a home improvement project, all by 5:00pm. About that time, I start to unwind and look forward to a relaxing evening - dinner, movie, or reading.

Now, G sleeps in on weekends till about 1 or 2 pm. Then, it takes her almost 2 hours to get ready to face the day. So, do the math - by the time I am winding down my day, she is just ready to start hers. See what I mean? This is not a one or two hour difference.

Again, she has been in the habit of staying up till 1 or 2 am, which explains this to some extent. And she is now going to bed at 10, which she says makes her feel much better and lets her get up earlier. I don't expect her to ever become an early riser, so if she can be ready by 11 or so, that would probably be fine. And I can see us being OK with being out of synch on most weekends (I can do my stuff while she sleeps, and then we can spend time together when she is up), but I don't know how it would work at other times, like on vacations, if I want to go explore at 10 and she can't be ready until 4pm. I do see potential issues here. Again, time will tell. I am not looking for a clone, but someone with whom I am compatible.


I'd say that's about right, which is not all that bad in my book. I have dated worse odds than this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Of course; this is why we date.

Look, wiftty, nothing you said surprises me, and I appreciate your analysis. I am still at the fairly early stages of seeing all the jigsaw puzzle pieces, and there are several possible ways of putting them all together to get the full picture. That is exactly what I am doing these days.

Once I see the picture that starts emerging, I'll know better what to do with it. At this point, I can still assemble the pieces in various ways, which would give me different overall conclusions. So, instead of trying to force fit the pieces, I am letting them fall into place. My eyes are full open, I promise you that.

But, yes, I agree that some of these traits appear to be consistent with the "never married no kids" person who has gotten used to that lifestyle, which typically is different from the one we "divorced with kids" people have adopted.

Time will tell <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

While I agree with some of the potential issues wiftty has raised, I see more room for success than he does.

The term stark is definately on the opposite end from piles of stuff. If indeed you are that far apart there will need to be VERY firm boundries on your part as to where she can pile & where she can't. Perhaps she has a room of her own for her stuff but the rest of the house if off limits to piles.

I'll tell you how it's worked & why in my house. I recognize this won't work for people who CAN'T live with disorder.

Though I would like to have a clean, orderly house I have three boys who are not clean & orderly. For my mental & emotional health I long ago gave up trying to get them to keep things clean once they're clean & getting them to keep their rooms clean & orderly. What this means is I live with more mess & clutter than I'd like to live with. What it also means is that I don't have the emotional turmoil & discomfort of not having things my way.

When I was trying to get them to keep things clean & orderly it was just me doing all the work. They (including ex) did not help. The kids did a bit of work when I was right there with them saying pick up this, pick up that. It drove me crazy & built lots of resentment. So, I gave up what I wanted to have less turmoil.

Now, if ex were to read this he'd probably think it was all bull. That I'm just messy & could care less about having a neat, clean house. But that doesn't matter as he didn't ever ask or help. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What's the answer? It depends on much you're willing to allow. Just as in sexual matters where the frequency is with the person who likes less than the one who wants more, this goes to the person who can live with the most mess.

It's not that I like my house stark or spartan, that is probably an overstatement. I like the kitchen counters mostly clear, I like the floors mostly clear, and I prefer the other horizontal surfaces (desks, tables, shelves) to be at least organized in some fashion (even if in piles). Definitely not the "no items left in plain sight" like you see in home magazines <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Now, let me describe G's apartment. Every closet is filled to the gills, not just the shelves and hangers, but including the floor space, up to the ceiling. A lot of it what I consider useless junk (I know, judgemental) - things like old packaging boxes for 4 different hair driers, 3 VCRs, 2 cell phones, you get the idea - these were the ones she said might be useful if she decided to sell the items on ebay someday.

The kitchen counters are stacked completely with magazines, catalogs, brochures, mail, election pamphlets, and god knows what else. I am talking about 90% of the countertop area, about 2-3 feet high. Got the picture?

Since all the closets are full, there are boxes and piles lining the walls of most rooms and hallways, again about 2-3 feet deep. Picture that for a sec. We are talking magazine piles, boxes of books, storage boxes full of clothes, etc. We talked about the magazines and catalogs, especially the really old ones, and she felt that they may have ebay value; and some catalogs, though expired, might have good ideas in them for decorating. I had to bite my tongue on that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

The bathroom counters are filled with probably close to 50 or more full sized spray bottles of stuff I don't even understand, aside from the obvious shampoo, conditioner, and hairspray. I get the impression that she tends to have several examples of everything, from hair spray to hair driers, and I think that is just more of the same "pack rat" trait.

Anyway, I think you get the picture.



Thanks nams, and this is where I feel there may be more compromise than wiftty sees <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I realize that I will have to lower my expectations regarding things like cleanliness and "starkness", just like you say. And so, I believe that this will be my goal in the near future, to see how much of a change G can make and how much of a change in attitude I can come up with.

I am not expecting it to be easy, but I am at this point willing to try. G is a wonderful, sweet, loving, genuine, honest, and pretty woman that does not have any of the real red flags or deal breakers I have seen with so many others (extreme neediness, mental illness, bankruptcies, unresolved issues, etc etc). So I am still enjoying my time with her, and I truly enjoy getting to know her, good and not so good. I certainly don't see the need to break it off based on what I have seen so far, that would make me come off as the wacko... But sure, I am observing and digesting, and am trying to find to make a way to make it work.

Thanks for the thoughts. I wish I could remember who it was who had big issues of clutter with her ex, was it Greengables? Maybe she would have some insight to offer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

True, but this is where I get a bit nervous. While part of me thinks that it would be workable if I simply established such firm boundaries (e.g. G can have the basement, the guest room, etc, for her "stuff" but the rest is off-limits), I think wiftty is right that this may build resenment in G because she will feel controlled like a child.

It's a tough issue, and I think is one of those issues that will need time to become clearer as to just where we stand. For instance, if I see that over time we can clear our some of her stuff, I'd feel a bit more encouraged. But, if I see her simply acquiring more stuff and always having an excuse for not getting rid of anything, that would only heighten my concern.

Oh, BTW, in case anyone wonders, it's not like she just moved into her apartment and hasn't had a chance to unpack - she has been there 7 years.

On the other hand, she said that before that, all her stuff fit perfectly in all the closets, and she worked a more "normal" job of 8-5, where she always got up at 6:30. So, it tells me that she at least had the ability to be much closer to where I am. Shrug <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

AGG,

The clutter issue could become a really big issue, especially having kids. I say that because your kids could see her not cleaning up after herself and then begin to question why they have to. And it become a matter of "G doesn't clean up after herself, why do we have to clean up after ourselves?" And you will find yourself more often than not, saying "Because I'm YOUR FATHER AND I TOLD YOU TO!"

And it really could become a battle of wills in your household. Right now, your kids clean up after themselves because they know it's expected, but if you have someone NOT like that, it could become horrid. Even if she is a step-mother.

And I fully understand not wanting to be someone elses maid.

And I am certainly not that bad, that I keep things around that could maybe be sold on e-bay. My biggest problem was I needed to buy me a paper shredder (which I did) and go through and shred old bills once they are paid. Otherwise they sit on my desk in piles.

What about a storage area that she could store some of her things that she 'might' one day sell on e-bay? Or better yet, does she have an e-bay account? If so, why not encourage her to go ahead and see what would sell and what wouldn't? Or maybe have a yardsale, and see what could sell that way? Or put things in storage, and if after six months to a year if she hasn't needed it, she could go back in and get rid of it.


Of course cooking takes time, which is why there are so many 'fast food' places out there, but the thing is she apparently doesn't eat very much fast food, but prefers to go out to expensive restaurants and be served. However cooking takes just as much time as going to a rest. waiting to be seated, ordering your food, allowing time to cook your food, and then someone bringing it out to you.

So is it really a time issue? or a cleaning up after herself issue?

And as far as the 'play before work' type people, I'm one of those...LOL..and my husband is a 'work before play' type person, and what really works for us is planning ahead for certain things.

Like if we are going to clean the garage or the shed, or do yard work we set a day that we are going to do that, and we also plan an activity to do after those things are done for later that afternoon or the next day.

There have also been times when I wanted to skip the yard work on the weekend and just go have fun, so *I* hired someone to come in and do the yardwork one day during the week, so that it's done, or I go out myself one day during the week and get it done, so that we can go have fun on the weekend. Granted it's much more fun having someone there with you helping, but I had other things I wanted to do with them that didn't include cleaning. And those are things my husband really appreciates my doing especially after he's worked all week.

So there are compromises even in those areas.

okay now let me put my 2 cents..no make that 5 cents worth in.

A. She's a long time single woman who is used to fending for herself and doing what she wants to do with no one to answer to. She doesn't know what it's like to have children and have to get up in the middle of the night to give a bottle to or change a diaper or because they are sick, she hasn't had to provide good nutritious food for children, she hasn't had to provide a safe environment for children. You on the other hand have experienced this and your mind, body and environment is on a different playing field so to speak.

B. Could she change? Heck yeah...anyone can. Are you willing to change too? I sure hope so.

C. Could she be telling you she's willing to change this, throw out that, and learn how to cook to keep you until the deal is sealed? You betcha! Not saying that's her conscience motive but it wouldn't surprise me if it happens down the road.

I know myself I am NOT a morning person. BUT because of my kids who are 15 and 9 I HAVE to be a morning person whether I personally like it or not. I would love to be able to stay up until 2-3 am and get up at noon but that just isn't an option for me. So I can relate to her on the fact of being a night owl but I can relate to you on the fact of it's not an option when you have kids. She hasn't had kids to know this first hand. Remembering those infant days of every 2-4 hour feedings. They pretty much kill the night owl life style. LOL

I know you are a smart guy when it comes to this dating stuff...and I'm glad to see you are willing to say you are coming out of the infatuation fog and back to reality a bit.

Keep processing everything and stay on your toes. Hopefully everything will work itself out for the two of you!

HUGS

TR:


These are all good ideas, and perhaps these are the compromises that can be worked out. My concern is this - on the one hand, I want to see if we can work this out NOW, because this will tell me if there is a workable compromise or not. On the other hand, I think that she feels that her move to my house would be a more logical time to "clean house". Again, seems logical, but you see where it contradicts my outlook. I do not see her moving in until well after we have worked out all these issues, which we have barely started.

So far, when we have tried to organize her stuff (which she says she wants to do, especially if I help her), it ended up with her saying she would rather do something fun, because she felt overwhelmed by staring at the piles. I understand that, but I would have preferred to at least start with something, instead of walking away from it.

Again, I am looking for signs of progress, and I would need to see progress before considering this issue even close to being addressed.


My point precisely <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. That's why I am not a huge fan of going out for food. I look at going out, especially to a nice restaurant, more as a treat than the routine. G says the same thing, but yet we seem to go out more often than I'd like. Again, fine for a dating lifestyle, but not the way I'd like to live day to day. Then again, it may be as much my fault as hers, since I often suggest going out and she simply agrees. Certainly every time I have suggested staying home and cooking, she has wholeheartedly agreed, and always complimented my cooking. So, I don't mean to say that she always wants to go out. And again, she often eats in when alone, a frozen dinner or leftovers. So, maybe I am making this sound worse than it really is.


So, you are in the same boat as we would be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Glad to see that you made it work, hopefully we can do the same.

I think overall, it's not an issue of clutter, food, sleeping, or cleaning - it is more an issue of the BIG picture, of who the "real" G is - while I adore her as a "dater", I also want to make sure that I can adore her as a partner, and that would include her contributing to our day to day life, both fun and not fun (i.e. chores). I know this sounds very unromantic, but again, if I felt that I did all the cleaning, all the cooking, all the vacuuming, picking up, throwing out,shopping, maintaining cars and house, and that "all" G did was sleep, look pretty, and be fun to go out with, well, I'll know I'll resent it. It's not that she is a worse person than me if that were the case, it's just that we would be too different. But I am not saying that this is where things are, that is more of the worst case scenario.

Alluring:


I am definitely willing to try to change myself and meet her partway. I don't know if we can both change enough to find that happy middle ground though, only time will tell.


Agreed.


The problem is that I am this way even without the kids <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. So it's not like in 10 years, when the kids leave, it'll get better for me; I'd still get up early. In fact, the couple of times I tried to play along and stay in bed with her till 11 or 12, I found myself going stir crazy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. So, I think the solution there will be for me to get up when I'm awake, and let her sleep in. But again, even that has limits, and if she does not get going till 4pm, I think we'll be too far apart to have a normal life. Remember, Harley says to maximize time together; it's kinda hard to do that when you are 8 hours out of synch to begin with.


Thanks Alluring <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I am definitely on my toes. In fact, knowing my cynical personality, I am probably more negative right now than I should be, since we haven't even tried to work all this out, and many will say that these big differences I see are really nothing to worry about (e.g. the cooking or the clutter or the work-before-play). But for me, I get very nervous when I see big differences, and knowing that it's hard to change people, I prefer to see eye to eye on everything. We do seem to see eye to eye on many many things, but to be sure, these differences I now see give me something to think about in the near future.

AGG

Your description of her place is...a bit scary. G sounds like she's on the extreme end of pack rat/cluttler bug. It's not so much the stuff as it is her attachment to it.

I completely understand not wanting to have a room or two for her stuff which would be placing her in more of a child's role.

Like so many things in life this may just require time to see how things play out.

Yes!


Yes, I don't want to do put her in that role.

She says that everyone who sees her place tells her she needs to get rid of stuff, but she says she wants to spend her time with me, instead of clearing out junk. The problem is, if she does not show some progress in clearing out her stuff, I'll start backing out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Which is why I am going out of my way to be supportive to help her clear stuff out - but not to the point of pushing her - it needs to be her decision. Talk about walking a fine line...


My thoughts exactly.

AGG

Sleeping, clutter, eating... all of that can be solved/compromised/changed if there is desire/love (enough)... if it's only that and that doesn't make 'big picture' too...


Wish she thought of so much sleeping as a waste of time too... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

I understand what you are saying here but one thing that popped into my head is the changing of someone else. People can't BE changed they have to WANT to change themselves. Which I believe you already know...but I just wanted to put it out there in plain sight.

We are protective of you guys...LOL...Don't want to see you set you or your children up for pain.

HUGS

Yikes! Poor AGG!

So much, look out! Be careful! Don't let...! Can't...! Won't...! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You know what? I think AGG has a very good handle on what he's up against & a very healthy approach to what he needs to see happen in order to move forward.

I'm hoping we didn't spoil your fun AGG. Enjoy what you can, the other stuff will sort itself out one way or another. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are very right, nams.
All other things aside, that's my essencial thinking too.

And, as AGEyes nicely said, we are just protective...
... and with the best intentions.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I couldn't agree more. Like I said before AGG, you got it going on!

Now, you don't happen to have a brother do ya?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ah, B2M, I wish you hadn't edited your original post, about the forest, the trees, and even indolence - I wanted to give it some more thought.

But, from what I remember of it, I think that it is precisely what I am doing, trying to make sure that the three individual "trees" of sleep, cooking, and clutter issues, do not lead to a "forest" of indolence. Unfortunately, that is an easy conclusion to draw, one that I am trying to avoid drawing until/unless it proves to be the only rational conclusion.

Thanks for your thoughts!

AGG