Alluring, nams, B2M, DW:

OK, ladies, I know full well that all of your concerns and warnings are to be protective of me, so believe me, I don't take offense to those at all!! I actually value the warnings, because as I said at the outset, I am as interested in constructive feedback and criticism as I am in the cheering section <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. So, keep up the good work on both fronts, and don't worry about being direct with me, even if to tell me I am screwing up. I value the inputs of my dear MB friends very much!

Yesterday was the 2 month-aversary of our first date (when I started this thread), it's interesting to look back and see what a journey this has been. It sure feels like I have known G for much longer than two months already. And since it only has been two months, I am sure there is still lots for us to discover about each other before we really know where things stand. So, I'm hoping to keep taking things one day at a time, enjoying her wonderful company, and see how the jigsaw puzzles fit together. I'll keep you apprised <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Your name really suits you, AGG.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know, I was thinking also... if I fell in love, I wonder if I'd be so much objective and have that right approach as you do...

Who knows, AGG, even if they make "forest", you might find 'that forest' is still much more beautiful and enjoyable than the other one, for, in every case!!, there are some 'trees' we won't feel comfortable with and we'll have to work on... i.e. what prevails on 'the scale' is what matters at the end, and that is just individual thing that shouldn't be, not a bit, influenced by anyone but yourself...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, keep enjoying... and we'll keep being protective... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
sometimes over included <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


You know, sometimes I hate my objectivity and cynicism, precisely because they don't let me fall in love as deeply as I might want. I mean look at this thread - in the beginning, I was head over heels with G (and still am, to a large extent), but look how quickly the "fog" lifted and I started worrying about every little (or big?) thing.. I wish I could enjoy the feelings more before letting my thinking side take over <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Still, in the end, I guess I am glad that I can see things fairly clearly, because otherwise I know I would have been already remarried to a Ms. Wrong.


That is a very interesting thought, one that I agree with completely. I am not looking for the perfect person, and I am willing to accept SOME differences and incompatibilities, depending on what they are.

The problem is this - you know how we all here have gotten used to reading each other's posts here, and we can yell "RED FLAG!!!" faster than the blink of an eye. So, in a way, we have convinced ourselves that in a good relationship, there should be no red flags or "issues". As I myself said on this thread, I believe in "not settling".

So, given that, doesn't that box us into a perception that no incompatibility should be accepted, since it would be "Settling"? IMO, that is not right. While ideally there should be NO issues or incompatibilities, I think we all realize that especially as 30- and 40-somethings, with kids, divorces, etc, we are more set in our ways and routines than we were 20 years ago, and that some amount of settling and compromising should be expected. The key question, of course, is how much is too much?

I know that Wiftty often does the numbers game here, where he takes the general population, peels away the unavailable (married) people, peels away the "undesirable" people, etc, and ends up with some ridiculously low chance of meeting the right person. So, some amount of "settling", or accommodating, is prudent. Still, the question is how much is OK and how much is too much, to the point of getting into a bad marriage.

I wish I had the answers; I certainly don't have them with G yet. But I'll find out sooner or later <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. In the meantime, I love her company <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Heck, today is our 2nd monthaversary of our first kiss <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Understandable, so why not compromise, to work on one room or even one pile at a time? Then take a break and go out and have fun? Instead of trying to do it all in one day break it down to smaller time frames?

That is another thing my husband and I have done in the past, we pick one area we want to focus on, and make plans for something fun once that area is finished. It's also less overwhelming breaking it up like that.

Recently I went in and started cleaning out the closet, he seen what I was doing and started helping. I took all the clothes to the garage and re-washed them put them in bags and a week or two later I put the bags in the car and took them to a shelter. So I took the one day to clean the closet out, and another day to give them away. My husband was glad when I finally took the bags from the garage and loaded them in the car to get rid of them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also had a bunch of winter jackets my dad had given my kids they no longer wear, so I washed all of those and got rid of them another day. What got me motivate that time was knowing a friend had two bags of clothes in her car she was planning on taking to a shelter and she was needing to go in for surgery before she could take them so I offered to take them when I took the jackets, and as she volunteers at the shelter I knew she would know if I had taken them or not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
So it really held me accountable.




So maybe do as someone else suggested and take a cooking class where you can experiment with new recipes? we have a grocery store here that has a guy cooking a different meal for shoppers to try. They have all the ingreidents right there with the recipe card so that you can go home and cook it yourself. All the meals take about 30 minutes to make, my daughters and I have stopped by the store a few times just to try the new recipes, and then buy everything and go home and cook together.


The thing is, marriage is not all about romance, it's about life getting in the way of romance, and keeping the romance alive while trying to live life...LOL

And working together to accomplish things can be part of the romance. I know I have more attraction to my husband when we work together on things than me doing it alone, it actually helps me feel emotionally closer to him and in turn more sexually attracted to him.

Oh, of course, that is all I had in mind! I am not expecting to clean up the whole apartment in one weekend. But, I am also hoping that if we spend a weekend together, with the intent of helping her organize/clean clutter, like we have decided to do next weekend, then at the very least we should be able to do one of the following: clear the kitchen counters of piles, and at least move them to another place; clear out one closet of "ebay" stuff; get rid of some of the unwanted stuff in the hallways; etc. I would hope that we can do one of those, and still find time to go see a movie or two, chat, bond <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, go for a walk, etc. Is that unrealistic? If we can't do that, I'll probably only build some more worries about this...


I'm curious, was it your motivation that got this going, or your H's wishes? I too would be thrilled if G decided on her own to do some of these things; my concern is that I do not want to end up in the role of the nagger, as we all know where that would lead.


I agree, and I think/suspect that this (cooking) will be the least difficult of the three "trees" to conquer, the more difficult ones being "sleep" and "clutter". I don't mind cooking, and G says she likes to cook with me, and wants to take classes with me. So, if we can find a way to take a class together (realizing that she cannot be available until 9pm on weeknights <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />), then that would be a fun thing to do. As it is, I am planning to take a class and experiment with new recipes, and I don't mind being the "leader" here, as long as I don't feel pushed to go out too often.


This is an interesting perspective, thanks TR. In fact, I have already heard G say the same thing - that the way that I take care of the kids, the house, and everything else in my life, is very attractive to her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And that she loves that I am willing to work with her on getting her place organized. And of course I love hearing that, and I love helping her, absolutely. But, I don't want to push her, you know?

I bet that if/when I will see her make these efforts too, to be more on "our" schedule, and to pick up and clear out clutter, then that would definitely make me think even more highly of her. In fact, she says that she is now sleeping about 8 hours a night and feels much better and more energetic than when she slept for closer to ten hours. So I do see some promise there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I know that whenever I end up "oversleeping" or moping around, I actually feel more drained and sleepy than if I get up when I first wake up. But maybe it's just me.

My concern at this point is what will happen if I do not see that effort from her, KWIM? I am afraid that my love bank will drain, and it will show (I am really bad at holding stuff back), and then her love bank will drain too if she will feel controlled, pushed, etc. Yet I am petrified at the thought of stuff slowly accumulating throughout the house, I wish I weren't, but I am. The reason for that is that unlike cooking, where I can simply take the lead and be the "cook", clutter is something that I cannot take care of for her, I can only help. And if she doesn't feel that clutter is clutter, then we'll be at an impasse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I really would love to know more about how long it took you and your H to come to a happy medium in this regard, and how easy or difficult it was to get there. Certainly your story shows me a big ray of hope. Thanks TR!

AGG

I have been keeping up with your thread AGG, and it's a tuff one, my opinion.

First I will say, the piles would absolutely drive me crazy! And the counters would probably put me over the edge. It would be too much for me I'm afraid.
I don't envy your position. Having strong feelings for her, and the traits that are present.

I have seen this from my x-sil.
I never understood it, it used to make me crazy to visit. I wanted to start doing as you are describing, clean, purge...
THEN, I had the pleasure of going to her parents home. AHH, same thing.
She apparently didn't know any better. Grew up that way I suppose. Her mother never cleaned, cooked, etc, so this is what she knew from growing up.

I don't have any advice to share, but will keep reading what the other's have to say. Good luck!

Karona

AGG - you have to come to some agreement on somethings. . . . my girlfriend is like G, i understand it, and the only way that I can go along with most of it is that IF and WHEN we live inthe same house together, that we agree on two items: the quantity of stuff allowed in the house, and that she trusts me to throw out useless junk without doing it together 100%of the time. . .

now, we won't know until we try it. . . and a vacation together for two weeks would be a great way to try it out. . .

however, the most interesting note is that once you limit what you buy, only buying essentials, the cleanup is much easier. .. the trick is to get the junk out, and then limit the intake into the house. . . once you can limit the intake into the house, then the dejunking easier. . . .

Another way is to put money from work check into investment savings right away, and then there is not alot of free cash to spend on junk easily. . . .

So what are her buying habits that get her into junk trouble?

wiftty

Hmmm, that is a thought. But, if she views her stuff as not junk, then wouldn't it be too hard for her to see me toss it? Sounds scary <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But I see your point.


Absolutely. And that is what I am hoping to observe in our upcoming weekend of trying to declutter her apartment. Again, I am not looking for a miracle, but if we cannot achieve any of the limited objectives I outlined earlier, I'll start getting really nervous <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.


How true... I don't know her long enough to know her buying habits, but I do know that she subscribes to many different magazines, gets tons of catalogs, etc. Part of it is hobby (fashion and interior design), part of it is her job (researcher/librarian), so it's hard to fault her for this. But, over the past 7 years, this has built into a mountain, and I am really not exaggerating.

As far as other stuff, I do sense that she buys more than she needs (I know, judgemental). For instance, on our second date (two months ago today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), we stopped by a store and she bought two big table lamps. Now, two months later, they are still laying in a box in one of the piles. This may be just one small example, but it is setting off a little warning bell in my head that G may have a habit of buying things because she likes them, rather than because she has a use for them. I estimate that she has around 200 sweaters/tops, 100 shoes, 50 pairs of pants, etc. Again, maybe in and of itself these are not big numbers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />, but when I see this combined with four hair driers, dozens of shampoo bottles, and many other redundant items like TVs, VCR's, printers, etc, something is just not feeling right to me. You know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

I am not even sure how to start a conversation about this.. "Honey, why did you buy those lamps if you have no place to put them? Why do you need 10 identical shampoo bottles? Do all 15 pairs of jeans still fit you?".

AGG

AGG,

Maybe she is a compulsive shopper. She sees something that she "likes" and she purchases it. She never asks herself "do I need this and do I have a place for it"? The lamps still in the boxes after 2 weeks is indicative of that.

Maybe shopping takes the place of something emotional for her. Some people are emotional eaters...same would apply to shoppers.

I am kind of skeptical I guess...I would see this as a problem. At least she isn't hiding it from you...as in not letting you ever come to her place. She evidently doesn't see it as something undesirable in some people. It's become quite commonplace to her.

The clutter must be really bad if she is ok with you helping her to clean it up. I HATE it when people get in my "stuff" ...that might be why I don't clutter...huh? lol

JMHO
committed

[color:"green"]I think you may be seeing some of what I had seen and talked about in my thread on my BF. He has trouble letting go of things. He has entire rooms in his house devoted to his hobby. Part of giving up his home would be the huge undertaking it would be to recreate parts of his house again in a new house.

BF also does not cook or do much household stuff - he hires people to do it for him now, although he used to do it himself (I think). I too would not be happy having a fourth child to take care of rather than a partner.

Eating out, staying up late, sleeping in - all of these are single person disease.

The good news is that BF is very devoted and some of these issues would become shared tasks. He is pretty good about helping out when I ask him to do something as long as I am specific.

I'm jealous though - I wish my BF were as active as you are in "encouraging" me to take care of my house better. He generally wants to spend time with me and is disappointed if I opt to clean or paint. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

V. [/color]

committed:


Yes, that has crossed my mind too. Of course so far, I only have the example of the lamps; the other stuff she might have accummulated over years and years. And in all honesty, given that we have been seeing each other nonstop for the past two months, I can see that she might not have gotten around to the lamps yet. Again, I am not making excuses, but trying to see all possibilities.


It could be, I don't know. Or it could be just something that she likes to do because she enjoys it. I think that will become more clear in time.


Oh, it's pretty bad alright, at least to this "clutter-free" guy. But I don't think that she is "OK" with it, I know she wants to get rid of it - the question is will she be able to, or will all of it feel "important" to her.

Thanks for your thoughts!



sunny:

Single person disease, I like how you put that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Does it get cured when the person is no longer single, or is does it continue because the person has spent all their adult life having it? (I know how wiftty would answer this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

AGG

I exactly know what you mean here.
I've always been like that, and always felt sorry I didn't allow myself to love so madly till I lose my sanity, without thinking/analysing, just letting my mind fly on wings of love...
(I wonder how come I ever made any mistake with this mind... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
Even now, I envy people not thinking this way... it's so much nicer for them... anyway we pay the same price at the end... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Because you are mature and serious about life and responsible too.
Also, you know what you want/need (in general <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) and that's stronger than 'simple' being head over heels, for you know that cannot last long enough, and you want to be fine with what you'll have in your hands when first strongest waves of passion are gone...


See? Must be a good reason for everything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Oh, yes, I noticed that too, many times I think of...

First, it's always easier to advise than to receive advise, for you can see someone's situation much better... a view is larger when you are looking at 'from outside'... and our theory! can sparkle, who doesn't enjoy in their own wisdom <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...

All of us here were hurt, and now we feel as we learnt a lot, now all 'specialists' in what kind of relationship is acceptable, healthy, and not hurting at the end, we 'know' what can work and what cannot, and, of course (because it's just theory), we - idealize...

In real life - no one we meet will make us happy (in the long run) if we don't work HARD on that relationship, and no one we meet will be perfect (OK, we know this, but at the same time, in our theories, we put our 'standards' too high...)

Yes, we convince ourselves, that in a good and healthy relationship there is no 'red flags' and there is no 'issuess.
And you know what? - We ARE right. And when we say to someone here 'red flag, be cautious', we want that MB friend to get THAT relationship - from our theory, as we wish it for ourselves.

BUT, in real life, and for all of us, there is no 'perfect match' without issues and hard work to get to the point of a stable, good, healthy relationship.

And I know you know this too.


Still we have to distinguish... if it IS 'settling' (as giving up our dreams of what our R/partner really should be) or just accepting reality (where someone still keeps that 'dream' of ours alive, just there are things we have to compromise and tollerate, and still be fulfilled with)...
Very often, the line between (this) 'settling' and accepting reality can be tricky, and we tend to console ourselves in sa many different ways... by mixing these two as well...


Compromising is always expected, it was in our 20s too; only now it's more difficult, for our habits are stronger, our patience weaker, our capability lower to love regardless what we take...



We can only guess... that it cannot be too much if we get into a marriage 'at all after all'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

IF we give it enough time and not rush with any major decisions... not before we learn about someone all we need and not before some issues that obviously won't make us work together are not only addressed but resolved as well...

Hmm. I want to say first of all that I think wiftty in particular really nailed it in this thread. But beyond that, I have my own insights...

I am a very high-N personality with serious clutter problems. I too have difficulty letting go of things - not so much because I value them so highly, but because I can so easily fantasize about having a use for them. Reality says differently, but then my own head-space often seems so much more real to me. And it seems that every time I steel myself to, say, discard all the empty boxes piled in my basement and my third floor which take up way too much space but which would sure be awfully useful if and when I move some day, somebody's birthday comes up and I discover that I have just the right size box somewhere in the pile. What if I have another need some day for another one out of the dozens of variously sized boxes?

Making decisions about discarding things is a very energy-demanding task for me. This credit card receipt, shouldn't I save it in case the IRS audits me? Or if I need to use a warranty. But even if only 1% of my receipts are worth saving, now I've got hundreds of receipts thrown randomly in boxes, and in order to throw out the ones I don't need, I would have to sort through all of them... Arrgh!

And those defunct pieces of electronic equipment. You know you're not supposed to just throw those in the trash, right? There's all kinds of toxic materials in the circuit boards. But how are you supposed to dispose of them? I don't know. And doing the research to find out never seems to make it that high on my task list. So there they sit piled up in one corner of my third floor. Well...OK...two corners.

I buy furniture items sometimes which don't get assembled and put up for weeks. So many other projects in the works, what's the hurry on this one? Heck, my living room walls were completely bare for years, with picture hooks left over from the previous owner still embedded in them. I had accumulated a number of prized limited-edition photographs and a painting, but somehow they never managed to get put up on the walls. After all, I knew I had them and could picture them in my mind. Wasn't that good enough? It wasn't until my parents were visiting (from out of town) one time and my mother remarked on the bareness of my walls that I did anything about it. I showed her my artwork collection and she dragged me out to a frame shop to get it done. Now I get lots of compliments from guests on my decorating - which indeed was all according to my taste - but I had been quite content to let my image of my living room exist solely in my mind until I was given an external push.

But I hate the mess and clutter. I can wander through my house completely oblivious to it most of the time, because after all it's just material reality. But the weight of the mess is constantly on my mind, threatening to suffocate. I know I should just start carting stuff out to the curb - but it just takes so much mental energy, that I have a terrible time getting started. Once I do get started, I have a hard time stopping (hmm...I should have gone to bed an hour ago, but maybe just one more pile...), because once I've focused on the mundane mass of the mess it just shouts at me to get it out of there, and I know that when I wake up in the morning it will have lost its grip on me again.

Why am I saying all this?

Because while it's true that if someone really wants to hold on to all their stuff and is content to live like that, they may indeed come to resent someone "forcing" them to change, I can testify that it is also true that if someone simply has a hard time making this kind of monumental effort (which an S-type personality may not be able to comprehend just how tough it can be), they may be delighted to have encouragement and help in this area. (Of course, there's also OCD, which is an entirely different matter...)

Sometimes all that's wanting is a little motivation. About half of my house is kept quite orderly, while the other half is a wreck. But I can guarantee you that all of it would be a wreck if I didn't have frequent guests. I want to have frequent guests, because it gives me the push I need to keep my house in order.

My ex-wife was even messier than I was. Not by a whole lot, but she was unconcerned about the mess and sometimes (carelessly rather than deliberately) sabotaged my faltering attempts to dig our way out. I can imagine that being married to someone who got uptight about the whole house being kept in extreme order would become oppressive to me after a while, but I would have no problem with compartmentalizing my mess, and I would value a partner who could help and encourage me to deal with it.

See, I'm a thinker rather than a doer, because the idea is nearly as real to me as the deed. But when you're doing something with someone...well, that's a different matter. Now you're sharing a world outside your own head.

GDP:

LOL! very well said, as I am very high on the N scale also, and my parents are very high on the S scale. . . its very, very obvious. . .
so because i was brought up with an S FOO, i can fall back on that when necessary, but its not very necessary very often. . . because i have that single disease

wiftty

B2M:


I think that this is what it all comes down to, and that is my plan. Thanks for the thoughts.

GDP:

Thank you for sharing these thoughts. It really helps me understand how it feels on "the other side" of things <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But this part I found very interesting:


That seems to be very much in line with how G said she views this, and I am perfectly content to participate in that role of encouraging/supoorting without nagging or pushing. So this will be our goal; we'll see where it gets us.

wiftty:


Hehehe... Are you guys sure it is the S/N difference at play, and not the J/P? I am actually a very weak S (in fact, tested as a 10% N on some tests), but a very strong J (100%, to be exact). G tested as a very low N also, and a low J. Isn't it the high/low J difference here, as that seems to have more to do with order/finsihing up than the N/S category?

AGG

I honestly don't see it as the S--N thing either as my husband and I are both S's. I would say according to the check list of J-P pairings it's more in line with those.

Strengths...

The P gets the J to play and the J gets the P to work on and finish projects.

The P thinks of play ideas and the J plans and implements them.

The J keeps things ordered and mapped out, and the P adds adventure and exploration 'off the map.'

Weakenesses...

The P wants to play, be spontaneous any time, knowing the work will get done later; the J wants the work done before play, therefore play time has to be scheduled.

The P sees the J taking life a little 'too seriously' and wants the J to 'lighten up'; and the J sees the P as irresponsible and wants the P to spend more time seeing that tasks get finished.

Differences in the amount of household structure/cleanness desired (or willingness to put energy to see that it happens) often causes rifts in our lives

The J may be afraid the P will not get the job done; the P may be afraid the J will ALWAYS find more tasks to do

We have difficulty agreeing exactly WHEN a decision has been made

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right about the P-component being a heavy influencer (because of course like wiftty I'm an INTP). If I had to guess, I'd say that at least for me the contribution to this problem is roughly equal between the N and the P components.

On the other hand, my ex-wife was an N-J.

OK, I'm an INFP, but I don't think any system can guarantee compatibility. I've been reading along, vicariously enjoying your romance. Inevitably, reality has set in, or as you said, the fog has lifted, and you're seeing the negatives as well as the positives. Everyone and every relationship has them.

Of course some are unacceptable and non-negotiable, but the rest... I think each of us, when we're ready to recommit, especially after all we've been through, will have to accept on faith that we can work through them together.

My husband is a strong ISTJ, I on the other hand am ESFP, and none of my scores were so high that reflect a really strong leaning to any of them. But, that neither one of us have an N, I'm not really sure where that would play a role.
Though I'm sure it could on some level.

Thorned Rose. . . LOL!

neither of us have an N, so I'm not really sure where that would play a role. [color:"blue"]LOL! of course you don't, you need some N to see the relationship on how it would fit! ROFL![/color]