oh, and AGG, did you say she was a librarian?

now, being a librarian would suggest to me that she loves books, magazines, reading material, etc. . . the more the merrier! makes sense to me!

wiftty

Makes sense to me too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Which is why I am trying to be as "understanding" as I can (read - nonjudgemental and not critical <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />).

AGG

Wow AG, (this is long sorry!)

I skimmed through your update and hesitate in posting so I hope I made the right decision to post.

She reminds me so much of my Ex-Aunt-by-marriage. Aunt S kept everything, sentimental reasons was most of the excuse although I could not see how some of the stuff she kept was ever for sentiment. It wasn't that bad the first years I knew her...but...

Through the years the house just got worse...and worse...and worse...At first it was clutter mainly, sometimes she would clean it and store things, and it would look better, other times I would come over and help her clean and store things, and each time she would say how much she wants to make a change in her life and she would say how she is going to keep the house looking nice from now. She seemed so proud of having a less cluttered house, (although, at even the house's best days, it was still way too much clutter for me and I would want to do more but she was content with what we had done) but within weeks I could see clutter building, bills, papers etc building. I would never comment on it, as this was her house, but when she mentioned it I would always offer to help her clean it again. After years had gone by it got so bad that eventually she wouldn't let me help her because she was too embarrassed about how bad it got. We would take turns going to each others house on special occassion for dinner but it got so bad that it was no longer just clutter but also not clean. She put curtains up in the kitchen and wouldn't let anyone in there, she kept all the doors closed in the house and would keep us confined to the living room and dining room. Then eventually I suggested she just cook and bring it to my house and I'll provide the house. I told her I knew how much work it was to cook and didn't want her to worry about everything else. She loved the idea and it was what we did until the divorce. I would hate to see what her house looked like after she had no reason to ever clean or remove the clutter.

Then I think back, the clutter, the sleeping a lot as well, the disfunction her life seemed to have.....depression? I think so...

This lady you are with, is she wanting to change for the right reasons? Is it to keep you around because she knows you want it or is it because she truly wants a clean house?

It makes me wonder if people who collect clutter to this degree are addicted, just like alcoholism and drugs.

I hope this post isn't too depressing and I am not saying it's doom....it may not be, this person is not my Aunt and things may come out differently.

Take care,

Anna

Oh P.S.

I never answered your question, I meant to several times and then changed my mind, I guess because I always had more questions than answers as I typed my answer....I will go back, find the post and see if I can come up with something now..... :-)

Hi Anna,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I don't think that G is anywhere near where your aunt was, but I can certainly see the similarity. I guess the one big difference would be that if G and I were together, then I would be there to provide a constant moderating force against things becoming too cluttered; although I am not sure I want to become the "clutter police" - that could get old and cause conflict and resentment. Anyway, I am still pondering all this.

We have actually hit a potentially much bigger snag, a possible dealbreaker actually, sigh. It just came up last weekend that G wants to have a child of her own (she is 39 1/2), which surprised me. At the very outset of our e-mailing, she said she might want one, but it did not seem very definitive, and I thought of it as one of those "well, if it happens, great, if not, no biggie" positions. And then she hasn't mentioned it again for the next 4 months, so I figured it must not be too important to her. So, this came as a surprise to me.

The problem is that I am 99% sure that I do NOT want another child. But the last thing I want to do is deprive someone of having a child - I adore being a parent. So, I certainly don't want to deprive G of her desire to have a child (if she can have one) - I just don't want to be the father <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Now, I have very serious reservations about whether she has any realistic chance of having a child at this point of her life. It doesn't take much web searching to see that all the celebrity hoopla of "have your kids at 44!!" is mostly baloney, and that the cold hard facts are that the chances of delivering a healthy child after the age of 40 are many many times lower than at 30. So, realistically, I am not sure that I would be "robbing" G of her chance to have kids at this point, I think she mostly robbed herself of that opportunity by staying with her last BF for 10 years, right through her most fertile point of life. But, I am not going to be one to tell her that, it needs to be something she needs to decide for herself, and NOT resent me if she decides to stay with me and forgo the chance of having a child. I know, tall order.

So, this is where we are. We decided to think things over for a few days and then chat about this some more. I know my position (I do not want another child), so I will have to wait and see what she decides for herself. Either way, I don't think this will be very easy...

Time will tell <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I wonder if she initially downplayed this. To avoid sounding like a desparate, clock-ticking near 40 year old. Maybe letting the relationship take its course, eventually you wouldn't want to be without her, and bam! you agree to being daddy again.

I totally agree with your position about not preventing anyone from being a parent. Its a difficult thing for her to pursue alone.

But better for this to come up now (3 months in) rather than later when she might be resentful of the time "wasted" with you.

And be careful...

[color:"green"]AGG,

My BF when I met him (age 43) said that he "probably" wanted children. I think he was either feeling a little left out because his ex was now having kids at age 40, or he didn't know how I would react to him not wanting children since I had children myself.

Later he changed it to he didn't want children because he did start thinking about his age and how tough it was to have kids running around when you're physically tired. 40 is less energy than 30 I think.

Anyway, your GF may be hesitant to NOT want kids because that may imply that she doesn't want your kids.

Otherwise I would tell her plainly not to have false hope, you will not change your mind, this is how you feel, you do not want more children, period.

She may be one of those women that think you will just change your mind once she talks you into it.

I would be very wary of oopsies too with the birth control if I were you...

V. [/color]

It's possible that she downplayed it intentionally, but I think it's more a matter of us both making "[censored]-u-mptions" early on, which now appear to have been incorrect.

I know that if she decides to stick with the idea of having a child, we will have to part ways. And, even if she agrees to give up on the idea of having a child "for me", I will not want that - first, I want her to have a child if she wants one, and not feel like she sacrificed that opportunity "for me" (I can see the resentment down the line already). Second, like I said, I don't believe she would really be "sacrificing" all that much at this point, as her chances of having a child are extremely low - so she made that "sacrifice" years ago. But, again, if she wants to try, I want her to do so - just not with me.

So I know I am asking for a lot at this point - I will only stay with her if she decides that she does not want a child, and is enthusiastic about it. I know, this sounds a bit like "my way or the highway", but it's kinda hard to compromise on having a child, so we need to both be enthusiastic about our decision, or go our separate ways.

I agree, it is good that this came up now rather than in six months, when she truly might have felt that she gave up her chance for a baby because of the time "wasted" with me.

AGG

[color:"green"]My BF when I met him (age 43) said that he "probably" wanted children. ...Later he changed it to he didn't want children because he did start thinking about his age and how tough it was to have kids running around when you're physically tired. 40 is less energy than 30 I think. [/color]

I am in the same boat, right down to the age <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, so I understand. I initially told G that I may be open to having kids (hence the "[censored]-u-mptions"), but now that I picture it, I don't want to start all over again. BTDT, loved it, but I am done <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

[color:"green"] Anyway, your GF may be hesitant to NOT want kids because that may imply that she doesn't want your kids. [/color]

I know she loves kids (including mine), and so I don't worry about that. But I do worry about someone who is so into kids ending up NOT having kids - it seems unfair to her. Then again, I think it is mostly her doing that she ended up at 39 with no kids - and I don't want to feel guilty for that.

[color:"green"] Otherwise I would tell her plainly not to have false hope, you will not change your mind, this is how you feel, you do not want more children, period. [/color]

That is my plan, and I will stick to it. Having a child I am not enthusiastic about is too much to ask, and wouldn't be fair to the child.

[color:"green"] I would be very wary of oopsies too with the birth control if I were you... [/color]

Sigh, I know. I actually think that after our "chat", even if we decide to keep going and not have kids, I might well go for the big V. It will make me feel safer, plus will make it clear that I am not likely to change my mind on this. Until then, cross my fingers, I guess, and rely on the miserable statistics for getting pregnant after 40 even with science helping, never mind while using birth control. Of course with my luck, who knows <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

AGG


The way I see it if you are adament you do not want ANY MORE kids, then YOU need to be taking responsibility for that, not waiting six months down the line to see where things are at, THAT JUST MIGHT BE TO LATE!

Seriously AGG, I mean you really don't know this lady all that well, you don't know what she's capable of, maybe her last boyfriend HAD a vasectomy which is why she didn't get pregnant during that time.

but if you really don't want anymore kids that is YOUR responsibility to make sure you don't have any more, not hers or any other women you might happen to date in the future if things don't work out with this one.

Consider this, she wants a child, she decides to stop taking precautions, you don't want more kids, you are then putting YOUR future in her hands and trusting her that SHE is protecting YOU from having more kids. How logical is THAT???

it could end up you pay child support on another child for the next 18 years, but hey, that would be your own fault, not hers.

AGG, what does that mean?
I.e. what does 1% mean, circumstances or the person you are with?


And she's 39,5?
Hm...
I got pregnant with my son when I was 41,5; that was my first pregnancy in my life, and went so smoothly that's unbelievable.
I worked all the time, (full-time), with no single day off, driving to&from work & around, even dancing in a night club with my X when I was 8 month pregnant (disco music dance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), never having ANY problems (except heartburn during the last 3 weeks, that was gone after drinking a glass of milk <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).
I stopped working on Friday, ten days before delivery date... well, I gave birth to my son 2 days after my last day at work that Friday, natural labour, no difficulties at all, and my son, ah, my son is not only very cute <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, but so smart... really.. he knew all letters when he was two, now speaks two languages fluently (his English is very soon going to be better than mine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), and he learnt to write a couple of words just by himself, reads a bit too (he's 4 now). (Knock, knock, knock on the wood <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
And just for the records, my X helped me nothing when I got home with our son... OK, he changed diapers a few times <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



This is not so nice, AGG...
I mean, I agree you are not 'robbing' her... she'd rob herself if staying with you/anyone who doesn't want kids and she wants... for, she still has the time, much more than a common thinking is, trust me... (and I'm not talking just from my experience)...
E.g. I'd love to have one more child, and if my M worked and I were still with my X, I'd have another one, even now, I feel I can, actually I know I can (handle all of it)...

Who knows, maybe your GF waited he'd change his mind and stayed so long in that relationship, maybe her wish for kids came latter after that relationship broke up…

Anyway, hope she learnt the lesson, if she dearly wants to be the mother...



This is very very very nice, AGG. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />




Then you know what to do.
First, change 99% to 100 percent, then convince her you mean it.
If she chooses to stay regardless, she either doesn't want kids so much, or she'll make a very big mistake (again?) and have resentment/bitterness later on if she does want, but well, at least it won't be your fault...

I know exactly what you mean when you say "loved it but I'm done." I am a devoted mom and especially when they were young I gave them almost all of my energy. Now it's starting to finally be "me time". I look forward to an empty nest where I can come and go as I please, go on vacations more often, etc. and as they get older and older I just find so much more me time.

And J has never had children, he says at his age he doesn't think he want any children because he doesn't want to be old enough to be there grandpa when they are in elementary. It is not his deepest desire but he's 38 and I notice each time he says "doesn't think" so it leaves me to wonder if he'll change his mind in a couple of years.

I wish you luck with lady.

Anna

TR:

Of course, I agree. But until about last weekend, I was not sure that I did not want any more kids, I was just leaning in that direction.

Now that G brought it up, and I really REALLY thought about it, I realize that I am done with kids.

I plan to have the "baby" chat with G in the next couple of days, not next couple of months. So, I do think that I am taking responsibility for this and not putting it entirely on her shoulders.

B2M:


Pretty much. I was leaning towards "no more kids" for a while already (a few years), but thought that with the right woman, I might consider having one. However, as I got to know G more and more, and all the stuff we discussed in the previous pages here (sleeping in, no cooking, no cleaning, clutter), I have decided that she is not the kind of woman I'd want to have a child with. I don't want to do all the work, and be a de facto single parent again, and I am pretty certain that I would be doing that. I don't mind doing 60-70% of the work, but not 90%. Combine that with the fact that I am also more and more looking forward to the "me" time, and I see little reason to start all over again, other than to do it for G, and that is not a good reason to have a child, IMO. Both parents need to be fully enthusiastic.


Of course, and you are not alone. It can be done. But it doesn't change the fact that the probability of this is many-fold lower than for the younger crowd. In most cases (and I do mean most), this requires medical assistance, and the chances of birth defects and miscarriages are many times higher.



Well, the research I did suggests otherwise, although of course there are exceptions. Just a couple of examples: this and this. The percentage of women who get pregnant for the first time after 40, without all sorts of medical procedures is very low, and of those who succeed in doing so without miscarriages is even lower.



Agreed.

AGG

AGG, I talked about me ONLY in case you are 'afraid' that she's 'too old' (for kids).
Now you explained what that 1% means and not so with her... I understand. (When I think better, I could say about that 1% too, the same reasons... in this age, the one should be ecceptional to decide for more kids, and you are right here too, I do agree and understand you.))
Although, she might change her habits drastically once she's got a kid, you know that too).
Yes, all probabilities are lower, no doubt...

Regards

Well, my fear is that with babies around, the last thing someone will want to do is to become MORE focused on cleaning, cooking, decluttering, or sleeping less - so if these things aren't working for "us" now, I wouldn't expect them to with a child in the picture.

AGG

That would be my fear as well AGG. If it's not important to her now to de-clutter I can't imagine it would be if a child & a marriage were to become her main focus.

Did you discuss the baby issue with G?

Dang AGG, this IS a biggie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Like you said, you both were operating under some big assumptions, but it's good that this is addressed now....

My thought is if G REALLY TRULY 100% had her heart set on having kids, then this would have come up sooner. From what you've told us about her, she doesn't strike me as the type to downplay something as important of an issue as this in order to secure you and the relationship first, KWIM? She's been pretty upfront about herself and her goals up to this point, no?

I agree that having a child is something both parties should enter into enthusiastically. I sincerely hope you guys can work thru this.

Now, as far as the clutter AGG, I'm afraid I don't see her changing much....she may improve, but I think you are realistic to know that people are who they are, especially by 39 1/2, and aren't expecting miracles. I know for me, it would be a deal breaker....I cannot do clutter and I'm certainly not interested in cleaning up after anyone EVER again. I was exWH maid for 12 years thankyouverymuch. Done.with.that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

As for someone changing their habits after a child enters the picture, it can happen. I was always a relatively clean person, but I became EVEN more organized after I had DD. I did it for MY sanity and I took pride in it. So she'd either improve slighty or get worse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> But all this is a moot point, as you don't want anymore kids.

GL AGG!

nams:
Yip, I agree. She did say that part of it is due to the fact that ever since we met, she has not had any time to herself, since we both wanted to spend all our time together, and thus some things/chores went undone. I understand that feeling, because I am affected the same way, but yet my house is still uncluttered, and that's with two kids living here as well. So, I know that while this might be a small (tiny) contributor, 99% of her clutter built up before she ever met me, so the problem is deeper than that. And it certainly isn't something that can be "wished away".

Not yet. I am still pondering if I should make it simply a "I don't want a baby" speech, or be more honest and say that I cannot see her and me raising a child together. I am afraid that the latter might make it sound like "if you change enough, then I might consider it", which is really not the case because I do not believe that she can change enough to convince me that we can raise a child together. Maybe enough for just the two of us to be happy (though I have my doubts even about that), but certainly not enough to bring a child into the picture. Ugh.

DW:


Yip.


That has been precisely my thinking too... But, I now see that I [censored]-u-med wrong <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Still, we have been dating for only a couple of months, it's not like we got engaged and THEN this came out... So, it's good that it came out now.


I agree, but I don't think I'll ever be enthusiastic about having another child, certainly not with G, based on what I see now.


I don't want to be a maid either. And after spending last weekend together with her and my kids, I feel even worse about things. My typical "kid weekend" consisted of me getting up at 8, feeding my kids, taking my daughter to a math contest, coming home, taking my son to baseball opening day, bringing him home, going to get my daughter and seeing her get a medal, taking her home, making lunch for all of us, planning a dinner and buying the groceries, picking up around the house, checking on kids' homework, reading the paper, and making smoothies. All in a day's work. By this time, it was 2:00pm, and G just came down the stairs. I can't help it, I felt resentful. I know they are my kids, but we are supposed to be trying to see how this would work as a family, i.e. she is not just a house guest - and here I am, doing everything around the house, while she, well, while she slept. And then, after she got up, I still did all the "work", cooking dinner, cleaning up, putting away dishes, dealing with kids' showers, etc etc.

I know that if G was not in my life, I would still be doing all the work; still, I am looking for someone who can be a PARTNER in my life, not a guest. And I am still looking for any sign of G taking on that role. She is very sweet, very nice, extremely complimentary of all I do and how good she feels with us, she is great with my kids, blah blah. But, I am seeing her more and more as someone who never "developed" or matured beyond college, if not high school level - unable to keep her apartment clean/uncluttered, hasn't learned "basic" life skills (cooking, cleaning, etc), and doesn't show much signs of responsibility or initiative. And of course I hate feeling this way, because I can't easily respect someone like that, and while I can do a great job rationalizing it all away, the fact remains that she is who she is and is unlikely to change very much. So, unless I see some signs of her changing her ways, it may be a dealbreaker for me too. I wouldn't just give up on her without sharing my thoughts with her, of course, but I just don't know how fair it is to tell someone that I will stay with them only if they totally change themselves. On the one hand it gives them my honest assessment of things, on the other hand it is probably pretty hurtful or difficult to hear that.

AGG
[/quote]

oh gosh -- you hit one of my hot buttons with this:



I've always strongly believed that you should find some that fits rather than change someone who doesn't.
Although I've had many people on this site say that if they WANT to change you should let them.
I tend to believe that changes might happen, but can rarely be sustained before the true nature of the person emerges.

I agree, and this is why I am torn. She says she WANTS to make all those changes, and that she feels very good about making them. So, on the one hand, I want to give her a chance to do so. On the other, I have my doubts about how much someone can change, even if the will is there, and how sustainable the changes might be.

In the midst of all this, I am still trying to assess whether I can live with her the way she is. G and I have a very warm relationship, and we really are very similar in many ways - which makes it wonderful and effortless to be with her - when she is up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. So I feel that it is premature to break up at this point, because I do want to give "us" the best chance possible. But of course, with the baby issue, time does become a factor for her, so it may be more prudent to let her go and have her try to have her baby, rather than to keep trying, only to have it fail, while also "costing" her the opportunity to have a child - I really don't want that kind of guilt on my hands. No wonder my head hurts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

[color:"green"]AGG,

My childless boyfriend is clueless as well, but I don't expect him to help out with the children. When he comes over he is a "guest" and used to get completely "waited on". Now if he is over I'll ask him to help - hon will you set the table or hon will you pour everyone beverages. I accept that he is not much of a cook. I also ask him to help out with the dishes.

If I get out of bed to do something he has the grace to get out of bed as well.

In a lot of ways he seems stunted at some less mature age. It does have me question whether he will ever be much help to me around the house. I have to defend him however, because he is a kind thoughtful man who tries to please me when I point out a problem.

Imagine if G sleeps all the time while a baby is crying to be fed... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

V.[/color]