I'm saying that your emotions ALWAYS lead...they DRIVE your rational thought processes.

The problem with this "theory" you have is that the God of the Bible doesn't agree with you. God says follow his rules NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL. So, if I do that, they my emotions canNOT lead. So, you are wrong or God is wrong & I tend to think the creator of the universe knows a little something about this. God says letting your emotions lead is a dangerous game that will lead you to sin. I guess it depends on whether you believe God or man in this.

Post deleted by LowOrbit

It is a matter of black/white. Yes or no. Good or evil.

Simple as that.

I think some people get caught up in feeling good. Or feeling good about themselves. Or they are bored.

And that they believe nobody will find out..until they get stuck in quicksand and cannot get out...and the affair sucks them down.

For me, nobody had to make me want to keep my skirt down and my pants up. It wasn't a matter that I was so in love with my then H, it was a matter of this is who I am...this is how I am. This is what I believe is right and wrong.

It was n't even a decision I had to make. However, when I first left darth, I went on a cruise to the carribbean with my sis and bil and ds and their kids...and yes! my mil and fil and sil and her H. I was madder than Hades at darth! He had betrayed me the day before the boat left and I had the d day hours before...when I as packing.

While on the cruise...one night we let our kids all go to kids' club. We went ashore to carlos n charlies. It was nice! (not in aruba mind you)...the manager was a very very attractive latin man...and he kept sending margaritas to me at my table. He asked me to dance, and to hang out with him...I said I was a married woman.

If I had ever had a second thought...or a revenge fantasy, it was then! Here I was..with only my sis and bil...the outlaws were NOWHERE around as they go to sleep rather early so they can reach the all you can eat buffets before everybody else does (sorry...that's what they do). I found out my H was cheating again...AGAIN FOR SECOND TIME WITH MONEYHO! I was already crushed. And here I am in a carribbean bar, wearing a sexy sundress and heels, flower really in my hair...and having the best margarita in the world...and ALONE! My xh had CHOSEN TO STAY HOME B/C HE HAD GOTTEN BUSTED HOURS AGO FOR HIS AFFIAR...AND CHOSE TO STAY THERE WITH HIS AFFAIR GIRL BACK HOME RATHER THAN JOIN HIS FAMILY ON A LUXURY CRUISE? Did he deserve my faithfulness? [email]HE@L[/email] NO!

But I HAVE MY DIGNITY..MY MORAL CODE. AND HE WAS NOT WORTH CHANGING IT FOR. I AM WHO I AM. AND NO ACTION OF ANYBODY ELSE WILL MAKE ME SOMEBODY I AM NOT...OR BECOME SOMEBODY I WOULD BE ASHAMED OF.

Post deleted by LowOrbit

LO,

"10 years ago I thought I was too. I LOATHED adulterers. Never imagined I'd end up as one."

I am sorry LO. I wish things were different for you. I really do. But you no longer have to be one ever again, you know. And that counts for something.


JP,

"I HAVE MY DIGNITY..MY MORAL CODE. AND HE WAS NOT WORTH CHANGING IT FOR. I AM WHO I AM. AND NO ACTION OF ANYBODY ELSE WILL MAKE ME SOMEBODY I AM NOT...OR BECOME SOMEBODY I WOULD BE ASHAMED OF."

No need to shout. We hear you. Dr H writes on the main site that most people will change their belief system rather easily when confronted with something they desire. No matter if it is contrary to all they stand for. If they want it bad enough they can justify it.

IMO, your xH has never had a belief system to change in the first place.

I so apologize for the vent and tj...

posts deleted

I think this is exactly what many WS's feel - that the BS, who has never been to that place of moral confusion, can't possibly understand the altered perspective that applies there.

I think there's a valid point here - and also a wrong assumption.

Yes, there are BS's who are virtuous largely because they have taken few risks and remained in a safe, unchallenging ewnvironment. They can't imagine being unfaithful, mainly because they can't imagine an emotional mindset different from the one they're familiar with.

But to extrapolate that to all BS's is a logical fallacy. There are many BS's who can clearly imagine the circumstances in which they might lose sight of their moral fixed point, and plan carefully to avoid just those circumstances.

There is a big difference between people who do a risk analysis and plan against it, and those who accidentally miss the pitfalls through sheer innocence and ignorance.

I have been involved with organising many large-scale IT implementations. In all of these, I rely on subject experts to tell me whether solutions are workable or not. When someone says "I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work...", I hear sirens in my head. What they really mean is that they haven't used their imagination to project all the problems that have arisen in their previous experience of putting such solutions together. They mean that they haven't looked off the neat path they have designed on paper. I can't think of a single time this statement has ever resulted in anything but trouble.

I am much happier when someone comes up with a list of potential problems, with contingency plans and workarounds to save us if those things do go wrong. The reality is that projects involving those kind of 'pessimistic' individuals have a much higher success rate. That's not a coincidence. And those individuals have not always learned through personal disaster - they've often learned from observing the woes of others, and from making a simple assumption that things will inevitably go wrong.

I believe that many BS's plan to avoid failure. They assume that fidelity will be hard, so they plan ahead to avoid getting into areas where the pressure would be worst. Their fidelity is not a coincidence, any more than a successful project just got lucky.

It would make no sense to say that all BS's apply this instinctive preparation. Equally, it makes no sense to say that no BS can understand the moral quagmire that the WS finds themselves in. Many BS's will never experience being in this quagmire, because they will have arranged to steer well clear of the swamp in the first place.

There are lots of FWS's here who have learned the hard way that the swamp is a bad place to be. They are among the best advocates for fidelity we have. But to imagine that the only way to understand the evil nature of the swamp is by coming close to being sucked under is nonsensical. Frustrating though it may be, there are those who can interpret the symbols on the map and find an alternative route.

“And even when I do find myself in a compromising situation I assess, decide and I run the other way.

And what if your very ability to make this assessment is critically broken? How will you decide?”

Good question. I am glad you asked. Makes me think.

I would not be me any more, for one thing. If my ability to choose ethically and morally suddenly broke, I still could not justify my choices. But then, in my case at least, I would probably not be able to rationally justify, or choose, much of anything at all.

After one is caught in a strong addiction, ethics are indeed blurred and indistinct. But in every conversation about choices I have ever had with recovered alcoholics and drug addicts, each and every one said they always knew what they were doing was wrong but chose it anyway - each and every time they drank or used. They freely admitted to being weak and a coward.

Yet they cleaned themselves up with supreme effort, and some I would now trust with my life.

I know I am capable of committing adultery. I am also capable of rape, serial murder, bank robbery, embezzlement and kicking puppies.

But I have yet to commit any of these offenses. I think it is because I know they are all very wrong. They all have unintended consequences on me and my family and they will have victims.

Why is it so easy for some people to ignore the consequences of adultery but not the consequences of these other bad things? What is the difference between adultery and these other kinds of bad things? In some ways, the consequences of adultery are even worse than these other things.

And that brings me to victims. For example, if a WS knows they will not leave their family, OP is used and is victim too.

Perhaps that is the bottom line for me. Empathy. I always knew I would not want to hurt anyone like that, neither W, nor DS nor some OW.

Maybe that is a big part of the answer, empathy? Some people have none.

With prayers,

I would like to add in a few things now.

One,I think TA's assessment is a very valid one and how I see things in many ways.It's analogous I think to how Dr.Harley suggests we protect our marriages.We have to have set plans in place and boundaries to prevent it from being hurt/destroyed.

And what Apphelion said about having empathy.In the very beginning after a few weeks had passed and I wasn't "suicidal", I actually told my WH how sad I was for the OW and what she was a part of.I was comforting my WH AND the OW in my mind and wanting to help both of them! That was my first reaction because I truly felt that my WH would see that what he did was terribly wrong and want to make things better so I was willing to be there for the both of them.That all faded away when the contact continued and the pain kept getting poured on me for what they were doing(and my "hatred" of the homewrecker grew).It was the continued contact that was the worst for me.I think I could have been much better off if my WH ended it on DDay.But he didn't nor did the homewrecker and my forgiving heart closed down for the two of them.So I personally have trouble with waiting it out in a Plan B for 18 months as suggested in SAA.It is asking a lot of a BS even though the idea behind is to wait until the A dies out.

The one thing that I don't want to come across is that even though BS's make the decision not to cheat in their marriages,it doesn't mean we are better people.I have the utmost respect for those who make mistakes,any kind,and make ammends and better themselves and make wise choices.I have a BIG problem though with those who continue to hurt other's thru their selfisshness or "confusion" or whatever excuse.

LO,I am sorry you are having a bad day.Your W is acting inappropriately and I can sympathize greatly why it would bother you that she is out and about.That is wrong but then she may have given herself that ole' "permission" that other's do to do whatever she feels she wants regardless.

The board has been a bit rough lately but then I seem to recall it is seasonal.We should get back to basics again and things will calm down like they usually do.Hope you feel better soon.

O

LowOrbit:

My hats off to you for apologizing to all. I am "so sorry" that you're going through all of this stuff and that things are so tough. Please remain strong and lean on the fine people who care for you on here.


What seems impossible one minute becomes, through faith, possible the next.

FR

justpeachy,

I completely agree with you. There may not be many, but I do believe there are a few people out there would will & would never cheat - no matter what. Not just myself, but I have a very good friend that I've known for years & years. She is the type of person that others call "goodie 2 shoes". There isn't a dishonest bone in her body. We went to college together & she was a straight A, 100% attendence, always honest person all the time (no kidding). Before meeting her, I didn't believe people like that existed anymore (except for my grandmother). So, I think Dr. H's assessment is that anyone from any moral background call fall into an affair under the right circumstances tells half the story - I believe there is something MORE to it. There are people, like my friend, who I KNOW would never cheat. She wouldn't even do it if forced at gunpoint. You'd have to kill her first.

But, I would agree that they aren't many people like that anymore.

TogetherAlone,

Your post about risk analysis is EXCELLENT! If you were to sit & chat with my H & I, you would find that we work in the ways you describe.

ME - people who do a risk analysis and plan against it
FWH - those who accidentally miss the pitfalls through sheer innocence and ignorance

Even through our discussions, I analyzed the situation in both events (EA & PA) and was able to give him information he still didn't see. That EA girl was purposefully leading him on for attention and PA girl had planned this A long before (pursuing him & playing victim around him - complaining about her live-in BF all the time). The evidence pointed to it, but he doesn't analyze people like I do. Now, he realizes that the OW weren't innocent victims that he saw before. The PA OW was calculating & continued to pursue long after it was over. He just was blind to it all.

When I would be out to dinner with a male friend(s)(business meetings), I was ALWAYS accessing the situation. Did they understand I was a committed wife? Did they have any ideas that would be out of line? Did I see any behavior that was inappropriate? I also always spoke positively about my H AND never spent time talking about my personal life. I kept my relationships very professional (on purpose).

I had these safeguards in place because I didn't want to find myself vulnerable to an A. I did plan ahead. I'm a VERY hard-headed person so when I make my mind up, I don't change it. I made up my mind that I would never cheat on my H so I made sure to never do anything to get me there.

On the other hand, I had warned my H that A's start with friendships. He didn't believe me even after the EA. And he repeated the same behavior. Girl leans on him for emotional support (bad boyfriends, bad lives) and he is their rescuer giving encouragement. This lead him to have feelings for them. He never thought he couldn't have women friends & never even analyzed the EA after it happened to make sure he didn't go there again. He didn't learn from it, but instead went further the next time around.

NOW, that he has understanding, I believe that no matter what, another A will NOT happen. He knows he cannot have women friends. If he has a woman co-worker, it must remain professional. If they want to dump their problems, they will have to go somewhere else. If they are physically attractive (and he's having a problem with it), he will have to not work with them even if it means changing jobs. He is NOW doing what I have done all along. Maybe a big part has to do with knowledge & planning.