Okay, just two FYI's for everyone... (and I'll put them on both of my threads since this thread still gets some posts even though I intended it to just be short term)

1) I have a therapy appointment next Tuesday with a woman at a Christian counseling service. I know nothing about her or the office--pulled them out of the Yellow Pages because they are at least on my side of town. My out-of-pocket will be $35/session which could be worse, I guess. It will all go on a credit card. I truly feel rather unfixable sometimes, because I'm not ready to cope with the "you may be alone forever" option, but I'll go see her and pray that she truly is Christian and that God will work through her to help me and that he will work on me so that I can be helped.

I don't really know where else to turn for one-on-one Christian help. My pastors' wives STILL have not called me, and the only talk I've had lately with either pastor was when I called one a few days ago. They'll say, "Oh, I was going to call you...", but no one ever does. I think it would be better if my church was bigger and we had elders who were each responsible for a group of people, but we don't. So the pastors are responsible for everyone and everything, and they're just too busy to give personal attention.

2) Mr. Guy emailed me today--first time this week. It was just a short email, more or less rubbing it in that I have to work tomorrow and he's now off for two weeks on Christmas break and telling me about some really goofy dream he had last night. It was friendly, but nothing more. I did email back--just commented on his comments. Hopefully that wasn't pushy. I will pace my floors if necessary tonight and won't call him--from what he said last night he's planning on playing poker with his brother and friends tonight before he gets his kids for the next several days.

I am not going to call him about "taking a break" or "breaking things off" before Christmas. As crazy as this is driving me, I think to do that right now would be even harder, and probably not fair to him either (or maybe it would provide him with intense relief...he wouldn't be "conflicted"). Analyzing again. Should I? Shouldn't I? Oh, to be able to actually make a decision just once.

LL

LL, I still think that 'no sex before marriage' is just... excuse/'manipulation', or something even more serious (e.g. your approach to sex itself), and not your REAL beliefs...
I mean, you can say you want to have these beliefs and that you want to work on that, but you cannot say you now have them...

And again, see what you write:


If you had these beliefs, you would live them; THAT would be "how You want to".

Think of it.
It might help you to see real reasons of doing these things, and being aware of problem is a half way of resolving it.

LordsLady:

I think you'll benefit from counselling, but I'm curious why you're interested in Christian counselling. I went to a non-religious counsellor and when she questioned my values, I simply told her that I had my own beliefs and that was that. I don't understand why religion plays a role in this....

I have a few suggestions for you and I hope you'll benefit from them.

Firstly---when my Husband and I split, I was alone and I wasn't interested in men so I joined a Christian trivia channel in mIRC. mIRC is a chat program that you download to your computer and use to connect to other mIRC users. Choosing a Christian channel meant that men didn't hit on me, didn't send tons of private messages AND didn't send suggestive messages. I found that in general, the men were very respectful. I developed wonderful friendships with many of the people on the channel and I continue to converse with them now. I really appreciated my Christian friends because they helped me understand the basis for the "Christian" faith. You seem pretty computer literate so I hope you'll try this. There are many other games you can play OR you can join Bible study chats. It's very interesting and very fun.

I know that the vast majority of people advise AGAINST internet relationships but I don't. I think you have to seek out locations that are conducive to good relationships--such as religious based channels.

Secondly--if you do choose to go that route, keep in mind that you may find a very good man who respects your values and is quite willing to wait until marriage for sex. One of my closest friends from my Christian room was a virgin--(at age 34) because he was waiting for marriage. I have great respect for him for upholding his beliefs.

Aside from that, you may develop a wonderful long distance relationship. You're not interested in having sex before marriage, so a long distance relationship might be easier to negotiate. After all--you can be wildly attracted to someone but if you can't be together, you won't be succumbing to it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LordsLady, there are men out there who will wait for marriage for sex. My husband who was only 28 years old when we began "dating" and was willing to wait, even though I hadn't come to any decision about what I wanted to do. I was Catholic and had just left my H of 8.5 years. I'd never had sex with my first husband before marriage, so it made sense not to do it with any boyfriends, either. He came right out and told me that I was WORTH IT. You may be shocked to find out that he's an atheist and that his decision was based on *MY* feelings, since I was still completely entrenched in my former religion back then....My point is this--a man doesn't have to be RELIGIOUS to respect your wishes--he just has to love YOU more than his URGES.

I believe that if a man truly LOVES you, he'll crawl through broken GLASS to have you. Your man has proven that he's not willing to crawl through glass--he wouldn't even resort to masturbation in order to calm his own sexual frustration! Although you love him, his "love" for you is conditional upon your willingness to have sex with him. Consider this--he doesn't respect your faith if he's willing to pressure you to have sex (and yes, with all his passive agressive behaviour, he's pressuring you). You were willing to date him for 2 years, in accordance with HIS beliefs, but he's not willing to be flexible with yours. To me, that is a HUGE red flag and a prediction of how life would be had you married him. Men can live without sex, LordsLady....your man just isn't WILLING to live without it--for him, the sex defines the relationship, not the love.

I certainly hope that you can work through this, LL. You seem like a smart woman and I can identify with you because I , too was in a terrible marriage that was difficult to end. You should feel empowered right now--not defeated! You're as strong as you want to be--just remember, it's ok to enjoy a man's attention and company, but you shouldn't NEED or REQUIRE a man in your life.

Best of luck to you and have a Merry Christmas!

Belonging,

Let me clarify. I have a sex drive, and actually a fairly strong one. I am a normal 40-yr-old woman. The thought of no sex for the rest of my life is a horrible thought. I really desire both the emotional intimacy with the person I love and well, lets be serious here, the physically pleasurable feelings that come with it. I was greatly enjoying what I had with non-BF on both of those levels. That's what made the decision so difficult to stop, even though I know it's what God says.

Take a recovering alcoholic. I'm guessing he/she still very much enjoys drinking, but knows it's harmful and wrong and that's why they are seeking help to recover.

I DO desire sex. It is something I want to do. If I didn't, I think I'd be abnormal. But just because a Christian desires something doesn't mean it's right with God, nor does it mean if someone is a Christian, that they will no longer have desires of the flesh. I believe one way, but I still struggle with desires that conflict with my beliefs.

LL

Aeri,


Because twice in my life (the last time being just last spring) when I've seen a secular therapist, they've questioned my beliefs and this second therapist actually did the "eye-roll" when I told her of my no-sex-before-marriage ideas and admitted that it would most likely make my dating life difficult. The first therapist--years ago now--worked more along the lines of trying to get me to back off my beliefs a bit and go with what would make me happy. Doesn't work that way. I have to reconcile the two. So no more secular counselors.

Second, because of my work schedule and the church I currently attend, in which I am the only divorcee, I believe the only place I have half a chance of finding anyone to date who shares my beliefs (or just anyone to date, for that matter) is through the internet. I'm not young with a group of single friends like college students and young never-married singles are. I was married from the age of 19, so all my friends were families, and they pretty much went away with my DV. The few friends I have are work friends--I don't hang with them outside work--and all but one are married with families.

Before I signed up for Match last summer, I tried a couple Christian dating sites. There are just NO guys on there from Iowa. The closest I could find was Omaha, NE and that's 140 miles away, and there were very few there. I truly believe that everyone listing their location as "midwest" are from Ohio or Indiana.

And even then, I had only one or two guys email me and they had nothing in common. A big concern for me in finding a never-married guy is that I at 40 don't wish to have more kids of my own and they still want families. Physically, I could, provided my heart arrhythmias didn't do me in, but the risk of birth defects is much higher and then I just am not in any mood to be pregnant again at my age. But divorcees--well, the divorce needs to have been scripturally based. That leaves widowers, and at 40, there aren't that many out there.

My only problem with a L/D relationship is that I'm not sure I'm willing to move a great distance away from where I live. I have a very good job and it would be difficult for me to attain the same level somewhere else. I stepped into this one through another affiliated company I worked for for 19 years. I only have an AA degree which usually doesn't get one the accounting management position I currently hold. But I'm not entirely ruling out moving if truly the right person came along.


I do believe my non-BF has some sex issues. I wonder, the more I get to know him, if they are because he feels like he's had power taken away from him by his ex and by his other L/T relationship, and now he feels like it was taken again. And yes, he did make a mention a few nights ago something to the effect of him equating good sex to a good relationship because he's a guy. Okay, guys have sex on the brain 24/7. But I wanted to say, "non-BF, you told me your last 5 years of your marriage you had the best sex with your wife that you ever had, yet she totally blew you away out of the blue by telling you she'd found someone else and that she was filing for DV." Obviously, good sex wasn't equating to a good marriage. But I kept my mouth shut.

I'm sure he does resort to masturbation when I'm not around. It's when I AM around that is the issue. That's why he's not seeing me (which perhaps according to LH he's made and I'm just to dumb to want to totally believe it). When I'm around, he knows he pushes my boundaries, and then that makes him feel bad--so it's easier to not have me around because then he doesn't have to deal with that frustration.

He's never been into porn. He's only slept with 5 women in his life, including me. His wife was his first, and he had no affairs while with her. All in all, his life has been calm. But he does have an extremely high need for sex--like daily if he can get it, or even more on weekends where he has the entire day to be with someone. I've wondered if he could actually have an addiction.

LL

That part is ok, LL, that's the way a normal woman should feel...

I was talking about something else... background of your approach to sex before marriage...
There is something there, not related to God and beliefs...

You wrote this too:

I'm not believer (per your & Bible 'definitions'), but something is wrong here.
('see, I do this, now you do this for me'...)
And... you didn't think of it BEFORE sex... Why?
Desire? Then luck of self-control too? (another issue you have to work on then)

However, I'm convinced that your issues are related to something else, and once you solve them, within yourself, you'd have much easier nicer and happier relationship with faith, God, life itself.

Belonging,

Yes, I'd say lack of self control with someone I was falling fast for, and once it happened, the euphoria took over and I just tuned God out for a while because it all felt so good, and it'd been so long since I'd felt wanted and loved and cared for. And I truly believed my non-BF felt for me like I felt for him. That's the only way to explain it.

I didn't see it as necessarily asking God to do something against what the bible said. I more saw it as, if we keep this up, I'm sinning and I can't possibly expect that God would bless this relationship in any way, shape or form. But if we live according to God's will, perhaps he would bless our relationship because we were doing it his way.

I guess it's all in how one looks at it. It's not that I felt that I deserved anything...that's a big reason I feel like things will always go wrong for me. I KNOW I deserve nothing from God, so it's hard to ask for anything. But I asked because I felt like I could.

LL

I'd like to ask you...

1. Did/do you think he had just USED you by having sex with you?

2. Let's assume he accepts 'no-sex', and continue dating you, kiss, hug, and that's all, but yet he has his own boundaries, no marriage in 2 years - what would you do? Could you accept that? What would you think if he doesn't show any sexual wish (his answer would be: 'because I respects your boundaries')? Wouldn't that be boring for you? Wouldn't you be even more insecure he'd want someone else to be with, sex included?
I.e. would that really be a solution for you?
Or you would try to find reason to 'accelerate' his decision to move m. date earlier?

And that is not "God's voice" you heard as you said, but your fear of losing him (bf, i.e. desirable marriage).


The root of your quite few problems: weakness and luck of self-love and self-respect.
Otherwise you would know that you DO deserve to be happy and that you (YOU) make that happen.
It is not God not being pleased with you, it is YOU not being happy with yourself.
All of that is JUST in YOUR head.
You might fullfil this "God's wish" re: -no-sex before m.', but you might easily find ANYTHING else you "have to do to please God".
And that is scary... Please don't go there...
Look at your inner self and please do get it know, and accept and love whatever you find... for that's YOU, and you cannot escape from who you really are. As any of us can.

Belonging,

1) No, I truly don't feel that he "used" me, at least not just in the sense that he needed a body to have sex with. It's not his history. He has basically only been intimate with people he's been in longer-term relationships with. I truly do think he had interest in me for the long-term. But then I also look back and do feel that his feelings for me weren't on the same level that mine were for him, and that there was a certain amount of self-pleasure that was going on with him because of his very high sex drive.

2) I think that one is sort of a moot point now, but I will answer it honestly. If I truly believed his heart was in trying to work out a non-sexual relationship with me for the next two years and not constantly make me worry that he was going to give up and dump me, yes, as difficult as it would be for me, too, I would do it. I would miss the physical closeness, but I truly do (did?) just enjoy being in his company, even if it was no more than just sitting next to him on the couch watching tv and visiting with him. I could deal with it because it would be temporary. There would be an end date, be it 6 months or 2 years. I proposed the quicker marriage idea to him because HE is the one who can't deal with the lack of a sexual relationship.
Sure, I'd like to be married sooner and experience sex again--I miss it already. But I would be willing to wait, if there was promise that it would be there at the end of the 2 years.

As for when I mentioned God's voice, it was about stopping having sex before marriage (and no, I didn't actually hear him literally talking to me...it was more sub-conscious combined with things I heard around me that led me to study more on the subject of pre-marital sex).

The part about sex in the right context and asking for God's blessing was from verses in the bible where it says it's better to marry than to burn with lust.

Happiness: There are NO promises that I've found in the Bible that say God wants us to be "happy". He wants us to find joy in living a life for Christ (I'm struggling, admittedly, with finding that joy right now), and he wants us to be at peace. But there is nothing in there that says we deserve anything. In fact, we really deserve NOTHING. We are sinners, and we're very blessed that Jesus gave his life for us. But because he gave his life for us, if we make him Lord of our life, I believe that entails doing our level best to follow his instructions and not willfully disobeying them just because we don't like them. We will fail. But to just out-and-out do it willfully and not care and not even attempt to change...that's the issue with this "sex" thing.

You're correct, I can't escape from who I am. And one of those things is that I'm a worrier. My mom is the same, so it could be somewhat genetic and somewhat a learned thing. For whatever reason, God made me this way, with this particular weakness and it is likely I will struggle with it throughout my life. God also made me a person who very much desires physical affection (doesn't always have to be sex, but just being held and being touched). When my kids were small, some of that I got from them, though it's not the same as romantic affection that one gets from their partner. That's my other struggle, and it's the one that is going to make it difficult for me to date and not fall into temptation because it is so easy when the touch feels good to desire to take it further. That's why I need someone who shares my beliefs on what is and isn't right outside marriage. Not saying it would be impossible to "fall" even then, but the odds are a lot better, and if something unfortunately did happen because of letting down boundaries, I think we'd be a lot more careful the next time and our goal wouldn't be to just continue it because it happened once, but would be to rethink our boundaries and be even more diligent going forward.

Maybe I'm delusional. For my reading amusement, I've been just scanning the guys in my area on Match right now, and even those who say they are "spiritual" don't look like they're the waiting type. I see a lot of "looking for a woman who enjoys affection, passion, blah, blah..."

I dread this upcoming week and the holidays because I know this board will be pretty much dead, my pastors will be doing family things, my sis will be doing her family thing, my kids will be off with their friends, and I have no idea what I'm going to do to keep the obsessing from driving me nuts.

LL

His self-pleasure... hm.
Not using you as a body, but yet you felt he had too much out of it?

And what, you wanted to 'check' if there is any ground for the future (i.e. marriage) with him? To check would he be with you if there is no sex? Would he sacrify his 'very high sex drive' for you? Is his sex drive more important than You? How much really you meant to him? Is it waste of time to spend months and months (2 yrs) if he doesn't have a marriage with you in his plans?
What of those ones? All of it? If not, what else??


He 'constantly made you worry that he was going to give up and dump you'... As I had thought, and wrote...

OK, what would he have to do to convince you he'd marry you in 2 years?


You cannot accept uncertainty, that is.
Why??
If you were secure in yourself, you'd know that more time with him before marriage can just be beneficial to you. But you don't trust you could be loved, then you rush 'while is hot', before he learns 'real you', that one you don't like, and that one you think 'deserve nothing'?


... i.e. you cannot deal with waiting and BUILDING your relationship to be 'ripe' for a marriage...


Wouldn't you worry if he'll keep promise?


A worrier means insecure person. And insecurity leads to control issue (too)...

I guess we love ("love") differently...
(When I love someone, I could never think of anyone else... especially not look for other opportunities around...)

I mean, I still think you don't "truly love him", sorry, LL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First, I told him very early on that I had no intentions of dating anyone for over two years without a permanent commitment. That was when we were first discussing our 2-year thing.

But second, it's not so much the marriage that I'm after right now. The problem is that he is not willing to commit to dating me AT ALL without sex. I'd date him 6 months without sex. I'd date him 2 years without sex. If I dated him for 2 years without sex and then he broke it off with me, yes, it'd still hurt like heck. But truly I think if somone dated someone else for two years without sex, it is probably a pretty solid relationship and that wouldn't be a worry. However, that doesn't even look like an option for us.

I can deal with building a relationship. He can't, without sex. That's why I kept trying to come up with options that made it easier for him. I'm not the one pushing the boundaries (though I am the one who has allowed them to be pushed.)

As for scanning the guys on Match, I'm not "looking" for anyone. I would never think of corresponding with any of them in my current situation. And I'm not thinking of being with anyone else. I was more trying to prove things to myself, that maybe people are right and if this doesn't work (which it's certainly looking pretty dead at this point), that there might be other fish in the sea who shared my beliefs. I didn't find anything to give me much hope right now.

I do truly love him. I can't stop thinking about him for any length of time. Try as I may to find bad points or bad memories, I can't shake the good things. That's the problem.

LL

LordsLady:

Why do you use dating services?

Why not spend some time conversing outside of a dating site? Sometimes the best conversations and the biggest surprises come when we're least expecting them! If you're going to be alone while you wait for a man who meets your criteria, why not gain some friends along the way? It can never hurt to open your horizons a bit. Learning to live alone (without a man, I mean) can be very liberating.

You avoid some answers, LL...
(You don't want to admit I'm right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />)



Now.
But before...?

Maybe this is not just because you said 'no sex anymore'...
If yes, than you were right (your guts) checking him... On the other hand, maybe it was too early for that...



I would be worried in this case...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Really? What about his boundaries?
A bit of opposite situation here; you push his, but he presently doesn't allow it...




<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


(Nothing wrong with this, as I said, life doesn't end if ending R with him.)



You truly love not to be alone. (Nothing wrong, if you can be pleased and in peace being alone TOO.) And you are panicking you might be for the rest of life. (All wrong, it's so easy to be with someone... but for what price for what quality...)

Aeri,

I used the dating sites because it seemed the best way to find dates. Like I said, the few people I am at all closer with are for the most part work friends who I don't associate with outside work because they have families of their own. None of them have suggested anyone for me to date. My church is small--I'm the only divorcee there. Not a lot of dating opportunities. And I'm rather an introvert, so I'm not involved in a lot outside work, home, church, and my monthly Bunco with my neighborhood women (of whom all but one are married, and the one who isn't is as wild as wild can be--I DON'T need her finding me a date. She's a fun woman, but she and I don't travel in the same circles.) So, being a woman of 39 at the time with no single friends and no connections, I chose the dating sites. It also allowed me to do my email communication later at night, which was convenient for me. But here I am in rather a mess, so I'm not sure it proved anything.

Belonging,

I didn't intentionally ignore any of your statements. I just responded to the ones that I felt were most important at the time. But a couple more answers...

After the initial few weeks, I wasn't worried that he was going to dump me. My emails from him would all end with things like "counting the hours until Thursday..." or things like that, and he frequently talked "future" talk of things we could do. It wasn't until I took back the sex that things collapsed. Until then we had been doing stellar the last few months.

Worrying: Yes, a worrier is an insecure person. But I think worrying is just in some peoples' nature more than it is in others, just like some people are introverts and some are extroverts. I will always have to deal with it. It's how I deal with it that seems to be the issue--not letting it control me like it is now, because it's very hard on me and it's a sin as well.

Finally, you are correct, I don't like being alone. And yes, I am panicking that I might be for the rest of my life. But on top of that, I am feeling the grief of a relationship ending that I dearly enjoyed and hoped for a future for, and its doing so right at the holidays which for me is about the most depressing time it could possibly happen. And to make the whole thing just a little bit worse, this is exactly the same time my marriage blew up two years ago. It's not so much that it's bringing back the pain of losing my husband, but happening at a time when everyone around me is happy and celebrating with their loved ones just accentuates the pain and loneliness.


And you are correct, if I just wanted to "be with someone" to cure the loneliness, I'm fairly convinced I could have a bed partner within the week. But that's just it--I want to do things God's way and I want it to be the right person--someone who will be my committed partner for life. And THAT'S why I'm so afraid--I'm afraid that person just simply doesn't exist for me.


LL

May I ask why everyone is zeroing in on her beliefs that there should be no pre-marital sex, even though she did cave in for those 3ths I think you said lordslady.

It does say that in the bible as just about all of you pointed out, and you know what else is mention in the bible thou shall not commit adultery funny how you all seem to agree with that but question no pre-marital sex.

If the setting is right for some one to give into their being human and wanting that human touch for just that night and then thinking that well yes that felt wonderfull to be held by someone and to feel something that you have not felt in a while, then to come to your senses because you know that GOD would not be pleased with your actions, that is her right as a beleiver, do so.

Maybe my ramble is off but for all of you to question her on that is off putting to me.

Do any of your kids know you feel this way becuase hey ifs ok to go ahead and sleep with your bf as an adult then hey why not as 16 yrs old because in some states they are concidered adults.

I could care less if she sleeps with anyone before or after marriage...whatever is HER belief is HER belief....My point has been that she made HER choice and HE can't accept it...so she needs to move on, leave him alone and quit whining about it.

Lordslady - I think having sex once is a mistake a loss of willpower - but to have it for three months is a decision that you made - and really I just don't get it... Why ????

I still think it is important you answer (to yourself): if he says 'OK, I'll accept your boundaries, I promise to marry you in 2 years', would you trust him? How could he convince you, what more he would be requested to do that you can trust that? I.e. what would be the next to ask from him to make you feel safe?

My point is - NOTHING he can do to make you secure, till YOU make yourself.
Nor him, nor marriage.

Also, what is it in you that doesn't allow you to be happy, i.e. when you are happy, to ruin it?