DW,

Thanks. It's been 3 weeks on Saturday since I've seen R. Before that, we saw each other during the week and every weekend. This morning was hard, as I was imagining if we ever have the "we're done" conversation how I will react. I still haven't accepted that even though we're not seeing each other, that our relationship is gone. But right now I'm more just really sick to my stomach and sad than panicked.

As for the A/D's, I've been on them for 2 weeks at full dose now and they're really not doing what they used to as far as leveling my moods. I can still have a very good cry, and I can obviously experience panic, and anger and a host of other emotions (which is proof that A/D's DON'T numb your emotions like some people fear they do). But I know they can take weeks to get the full effect for depression. So I'm trying to be patient and hope that I'll wake up some morning a few weeks from now and realize that I do feel more normal.

LH,

I'll see if I can figure out my password to Yahoo. It probably would beat checking hotmail all the time, because my hotmail account is the one that R was emailing, so every time I go in, it's like a habit to look for an email from him, and then feel the disappointment when it's not there.

And I am going to look for a different church. It's a very scary thing for an introvert like me. Changing churches even as a family was difficult. But I do feel, and have felt for some time, that this church probably isn't the right one for me. I've felt bad about bailing when so many others have done the same, and have told myself that I'm there to worship God, that it's not 'all about me'. But still, it's just not a good fit. I just am not sure where to start. So many of the non-denominational churches have watered down their beliefs to accommodate everyone that I feel like they might not be good. But they are the churches that have the most opportunities for singles and divorcees. The other churches around here are smaller and have less going on. I guess I just pick one and go?

Yes, you have mentioned Screwtape Letters. I'll try and pick it up sometime. I did go on B&N's online site and check out the reviews and it does look interesting. I'm still trying to get through some other stuff. My therapist wants me to read "Boundaries in Dating" (which coincidentally I told her I already own and have read part of). I'm trying to make more time to read the bible. But truly, I haven't forgotten. I just have so many books that people have told me to read, and I've not read them yet, because I'm not much of a reader.

Maw,

Not making excuses for Yahoo. It was the truth. But yes, I can set one up.

And I'm not saying I can't have friends who don't share my beliefs. But my point (and that of my therapist) is that I ONLY have these types of acquaintances. I have no close, true friends who DO share them and hopefully not only share them, but live them as well (i.e., it would be good to become close with some singles who share my beliefs, to see how they deal with the struggles associated with them). I need that to keep me strong, to support me when I feel like I'm the only one in the world who has these convictions, and when I feel like just throwing up my hands and giving up. That's my point here.

And as for my daughter, my worry is not about her foul language, but more that it was just a reminder of where she's gone in life and what a mess she's made of her life. Sure, I can call the cops on the guy. What good will that do? It will just make her very angry and drive her further toward him and her friends and away from me. And the less time I have with her, or the more distant our relationship is, the less chance I have to have any positive influence on her at all.

I realize that no one wants to hang with someone who feels sorry for themselves. That's the point I made about depression, that it makes it really hard for people to find friends because nobody wants to deal with it. I hate it myself. But it is a real condition, and not one that a person can just snap their fingers and make go away quickly.

And I was dumb to have gone off my A/D's this fall, though when things were so good with R, I didn't feel I needed them. But that meant when things fell apart, I wasn't prepared at all. And I crashed.

And then I'm having the whole spiritual crisis of sorts on top of it all where I'm asking "God, where are you taking me?" For a person who is not particularly strong in their faith or beliefs this is probably never an issue. But for me it is because I do have strong beliefs and sometimes I struggle with them or how they impact my life. That's what I'm doing right now.

I've not gone on a drive like LH has where he had a 3-hour knock-down, drag-out with God, but I've had a few times where my anger or frustration has come out.

LL

As for your daughter which is the only comment I am going to make - who cares if turns her further away - turning her further away or letting her face some consequences of her actions just might be what starts her coming back to you.. But allowing a 16 year old to go and live with a man - I don't care what your religious beliefs are is just plain crazy.. my daughter is almost 16 and there is no way - come h*ll or high water - I would put her in jail before I let her go and live with some guy...

(((LordsLady)))

If you are up for a little reading, I'd like to share two things with you, that actually IMVHO relate very well to where you are today.

First, is actually the 1st sermon I ever wrote. It was actually the sermon I used in Lay Speaker school and later gave it to a couple of congregations. This sermon was inspired by "Mark 10: 17-31" but also ties into that 'Knock-Down Drag Out' that I had with my Father.

The second, I know I've shared with you my favorite bible verse and that is Romans 5: 1-5. Well it just so happens that the very last sermon I gave was over that scripture and I happen to think it was one of my better ones. I think my best one was over Job where I used my grandfather as a similar character but that's beside the point.

Anywho, if you are interested, my wife and I have a joint e-mail account, I obviously wouldn't do this without her blessing.

Please let me know either way because I do want to take down that e-mail addy as soon as you read this....

LH,

You should have mail.

LL

Maw,

Can't put her in jail for doing something like that. It isn't against the law. Nor is him having her move in unless I can PROVE that he's sleeping with her, and even then it'd be difficult because 16 is the age of consent in Iowa. The only thing I could do is say she's "run away", and after a while the cops get tired of retrieving someone when they know they're not really a runaway. They have better things to be doing.

And since she's not in school, she's at home when I'm not and has freedom to come and go (or at least to go, even if I lock her out) while I'm not home. I can't "force" her to do anything.

So, honestly, I'm asking, what can I really do?

LL

LL, just lettibg you know I am still praying for you. I will be home for a couple of weeks so I may find myself on here more often. I just had carpal tunnel surgery this morning an have to type with 1 hand , so it willl take longer to reply LOL. But I am praying so much for you. We have been through alot of similar experiences.

Have you ever tried A-anon? That is free support and I found it to be tremendous help in getting ME back on track. Living with an alcoholic makes changes in us that we need to address and it is important that we do that even though , or especially the we are no longer with the alcoholic.

Take care and know that I CARE,
HUGGS,
Dawn

I did and now you do as well......

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

IMO, you don't have to limit your friends to people who believe exactly like you. You can gain support, companionship, and learn a lot from others.

When i was alone and struggling, a year ago, after breaking up with J, I started going to church. Every Sunday. I was determined to see what God could show me if I looked for Him, because I sure wasn't finding it on my own, just sitting around waiting. I started trying different SS classses, and going to different activities and ministry opportunites. I felt very awkward at most of them, because I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere. I even went to a knitting group, and learned how to knit! I just wanted, and needed, to get out there, and meet some people, and find some things to do. Did I keep knitting?? no. But it got me DOING something, and meeting meeting people. So that later on, when I saw those ladies somewhere else at church, or in another class or group or at the Habitat House painting, we knew each other.

And my Singles class is made up of ages 21-30 yo's. I'm 36. But I don't fit in with the "older" singles class. They are 42'ish and up, and all with kids. (I don't have kids) So, I don't quite fit in with my class - most haven't been married before - and we don't all agree on everything in life. But it doesn't matter. We have developed caring friendships for each other. We learn about God's word, have enough in common to feel comfortable (we're all single, and we all work), and we can laugh and learn together and support each other.

I'm glad you're seeing a counselor, and are thinking of trying other churches. Don't put blinders on though, and limit what God can do through those people he puts in your path.

hugs,
Faith1

Dawn,

Sorry to hear you had surgery, but hope it helped and that you're feeling better soon. I know one handed typing all too well. I fractured my wrist in October and for a while was in a very unhandy split. I'm right-handed and of course it was my right hand. So it was a challenge for a while!

Thanks for thinking of me, and for the prayers! I only attended a handfull of Al-Anon meetings. You're one of many who told me they might benefit. I just evidentally didn't find the right fit. Right now, going to Al-Anon would mean rehashing "the alcoholic" and I'd just rather not think about him most of the time. We'll see what the therapist has to say though. I'm sure we'll talk about him and the effects of living 19 years in an alcoholic marriage.

LH,

Got mail. Thanks! Skimmed it already. Will read again, more in-depth next time.

Faith,

Not saying I don't need friends who don't share my beliefs. Just saying I also need friends who do because they will be my best source of strength in convincing me to hold firm to mine.

I don't even know how to start looking for a church. I've always moved and followed someone, either a pastor or people I kneew. I know there are certain denominations I won't be comfortable with--views are too radically different. But from there, it gets more confusing. Guess I just need to look at what's in my area and just go see what's out there.
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And finally, for everyone who encouraged me to make closer friends from here on the board or to at least get some emails going, I do have the password to my yahoo account, and I'll try and remember to start checking it (not a habit right now, hotmail is, but it needs to be broken).

So:

lordschild65@yahoo.com


If anyone wants to take me up on it.

LL

LL, if you are not sure what I mean, read these quotes from your postings on this thread. . . and then talk with your therapist about how to help yourself so that you can function a bit less dramatically. . . then you might have a shot at dating. . . and the reason that i appear to be torturing you with this, is to help your therapist get to the root of your issues so that you can date functionally again, regardless of how you want to interpret my comments.

wiftty

I knew left on my own, I'd be stupid because I'd reason my way into thinking it would do some good.

And it makes me really angry that I made what appears now to have been just another really poor decision in picking someone and now I'm paying for it.

But yes, I am full well aware that I am suffering depression, and that is making the issue 100 times worse.
But I really am so tired of drama. I look at people I know whose lives aren't perfect, but they don't deal with one thing after another like I feel I do. It's been chaos since I married at 19 for the most part.

I truly have enjoyed every minute I spent with him, and wanted more than anything to please him.
I have a very real fear of being alone and celibate for the rest of my existence.

“””Drama: I did not choose to make this decision to create "drama" in my relationship.”””


I truly do love him, and you tell me how you let someone you love go and how it doesn't about kill you emotionally.
I don't like the drama. I hate it. If I liked it, I wouldn't have lost 10 pounds and be fighting like crazy to keep from losing more. I hate waking up feeling like I do.
And yet it's driving me nuts not hearing from him.
The ball is rolling. I am feeling sick, because I'm pretty sure which way it's rolling.

But I've done nothing this evening but bawled my eyes out. I'm not coping well today with the inevitable demise of my relationship with the guy,

He's had a messy five years. I wanted to make him happy. And all I'm doing is screwing up his life more.

And this is the worst time of year for this to happen at work as well. Being a new business, we are tight on cash and so I've been pulled off my normal responsibilities to do a lot of cash flows. Now we're at year-end and it'll soon be time for our audit, and I've had no time to prepare. And there is no one to ask for help, because everyone is busy right now. So I have to just do it somehow, and try as I may, my concentration is just gone.

I truly question how long I can do this without cracking. Not suicidal cracking, but just snapping and not having a clue who I am or where I am someday.

Now this morning I woke with the normal shakes and jitters which I can't figure out because I wasn't even really thinking of anything (so my hypochondriac self started thinking maybe I have MS or something--okay, it all came on when this "issue" first came up, so I'm sure it's related).

Too much to do at work. It's gotten crazy, which is very bad timing, because I feel like the walls are all falling down around me and I don't have the energy to keep up, and there's no one to help me. Along with fearing that I'll be alone forever, fearing that my daughter is beyond hope, I now also fear I could screw up and lose my job. That'd pretty much be the icing on the cake. I push myself to my limits right now, but it's not enough. I need to be at 150% and I'm not there. If anyone has ever experienced true clinical depression, they know what I'm talking about. It takes a lot of effort sometimes to get out of bed when every day is cloudy and murky and I feel icky. To be able to keep my focus at work and to have the energy to push into the evening (8-9pm at night) pretty much on a daily basis (which then means nothing is getting done at home--it's now a complete wreck with both kids here)--I do have days where I feel like just throwing up my hands and saying, "I can't do this!".

I feel like I'll never wake up and feel "normal" or at peace ever again.

sounds pretty histrionic to me. . .

LL... You analyze everything in such depth, but your actions don't follow 5% out of it...
Yes, I do understand what you are going through... but as much I feel sorry for you, I feel much more sorry for your daughter...
You should be a fighter at least re: her...
She poor girl should be the center of your universe, dear, for where she is now... not your relationship with anyone else...
I don't think that is too late to direct her properly... give some love and time and strong will & action too...

LL, I stopped posting to you a while ago because I got frustrated. I said what I felt and more would just be badgering you. I wasn't sure what else to say without sounding critical and you had so many supporters. Now it seems others are getting frustrated, too.

Here's what I see. You're young, attractive, and intelligent. You've got problems with your teenager - not unusual. You've got strong spiritual beliefs, but keep violating them and beating yourself up about it.

Okay. Those of us who are MB regulars all have suffered a fair amount of pain. That's what brought us here. What keeps us here is wanting to grow and change what we can so we don't suffer the same pain again, hopefully, and maybe to be able to help someone else as we were helped.

I'm one of those who's recommended Al-Anon a few times. While I'm like you and don't have any regular e-mail or phone buddies from MB right now, I have a several from my local Al-Anon meeting. I'm no longer living with an alcoholic either, but Al-Anon isn't about the alcoholic, though it's our concern about them that gets us in the door. It's actually a great place to learn about our own defects of character and grow in a safe, spiritual context. Everyone there doesn't share identical spiritual beliefs, but everyone respects each other's choices.

Like you, I've made what I later realized were mistakes. My WH left 5 years ago but I'm still not divorced. I dated a man for 3 years, including SF, during this time. I realize now that not only was I not ready to date, it violated my own spiritual beliefs. I wanted to bypass the grief and I wanted reassurance that I was desirable to someone after my WH's rejection and abuse.

The decision I've made now is not to date until I'm divorced, which may be a long time since it's already been 4 1/2 years since I filed and WH is still dragging his feet. At 54, living in the boonies, that isn't really a difficult choice, in fact I'd have to go out of my way to find someone (like on-line maybe?). But, it's new for me, even though it's a basic of MB.

Still, some of my friends don't hold those beliefs. It really doesn't matter to me. It's what I need to do, what my higher power is guiding me to do, today. They support me because they're my friends. While I understand your fear of being alone forever, I don't understand your belief that this is what God wants for you. I believe God only guides us one day at a time. Obviously we may not share the same belief about this, but I'm wondering if you've thought this through.

I'm not a bible scholar, but I remember learning the story of Abraham and Isaac in Sunday school as a kid. I thought God was pretty cruel to ask Abraham to kill his own child. It really made no sense at all to me, even when he substituted a lamb at the end. I hadn't suffered much in my life at that point. Now I realize how often we're tested by life and how rarely we have the faith of Abraham. God didn't tell Abraham the outcome, only what to do today, right now. Abraham didn't question, he obeyed. The outcome was much different than what he expected. There are other stories in the bible like this.

I hate seeing you so stuck. I'm glad you found a therapist who shares your values and with whom you feel comfortable. Please stick with it, even when she says something you don't agree with - it's bound to happen eventually. I know, I've been in IC for a while. You're strong enough to uphold your own values despite what she or others think and it's clear from the pain you say you're in that you really need the help right now.

((LL)) Good Morning and let start it off right by disagreeing with you.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.... Al-Alnon is not about "rehashing the alcoholic" it's about you. During that 19 years certain behaviors became engrained in how you deal with life because that was how you had to deal with it to survive. Many of those traits are probably not the healthiest way to go. Likely you became an enabler to your then husband and that bled over to you enabling your daughter and that bled over to enabling your boyfriend which has led us to here where you enable yourself.

Think about that for a moment. Let's take church for example. You admit your dissatisfaction with your church, so many suggest finding another. While on one hand you admit that you'd like to on the other hand awaits a hand full of justification, rationizations, and reasons why that can't happen therefore you perceive yourself as stuck or should I say you've 'enabled' yourself to remain in a state of misery or unhappiness. We can apply this to many other scenario's that have dawned your posts.

That being said Al-Alnon is a free resource of people that encourage you, show you, and help you find a new way of life free from these defects of character formed by living with an alcoholic. Moreover, it is full of people who will not enable bad behavior. They are people you can call, touch, and hug. Your sponsor can become your best friend. I can totally relate to your statement about it not 'fitting' and would suggest to you that one of the major reasons it doesn't fit is not because of the group but rather because of you. If at some point you do walk back into those rooms, sit down, look around, and look for similarities rather than differences. I guarantee you they are there but require you to be open-minded, honest, and willing to see them.

Bring it up to your counselor, bounce it off her and see what she has to say.

Ah yes. LetsTry and LH both said some wonderful things. EXACTLY some of the same thoughts that I had.

DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO

In fact, LH touched on some things I tried to say yesterday. (I can totally relate to your statement about it not 'fitting' and would suggest to you that one of the major reasons it doesn't fit is not because of the group but rather because of you. If at some point you do walk back into those rooms, sit down, look around, and look for similarities rather than differences. I guarantee you they are there but require you to be open-minded, honest, and willing to see them.) But LL "rationalized" it away, as she'll do again.

And the parts about Al-Anon ... ah yes again... they are so much about her behaviors and attitudes which we have observed over and over on these threads... WE KNOW she doesn't live with an alcoholic right now. Remember several pages ago... I mentioned your behaviors and attitudes that are partially responsible for helping your xh stay on his alcoholic merry-go-round, and for your D behaving the way she does?

Al-anon is about you and discovering and moving beyond these patterns...

Oh... I remember the last time I promoted Al-anon.... I mentioned the beneifits it would have for your personal relationship and work, home organization, etc. You said you didn't have any trouble in those areas. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> hmmmm.....

LL. I challenge you.... I challenge you to read LetsTry's thoughtful and caring post... and LH's post... and DO NOT respond with more than 4 words. Your replies are always long (you always observe yourself how long they are) because you are listenning more to yourself than the wisdom here... you are excusing and rationalizing.... instead of saying: thank you, I'm listening. Powerful 4 words... I challenge you....

hugs,
Faith1

[color:"red"] <------ [/color] standing and applauding [color:"blue"] LH [/color] , [color:"blue"] Letstry [/color] and [color:"blue"] Faith1 [/color] .

I've also mentioned Al-Anon in previous threads to LL, as it helped me while doing the "Tough Love" thing with my son during his wild partying days. I know it will help her with her daughter, and life in general. There should be several groups meeting on different days to choose from.

[color:"blue"] Lordslady [/color] , please sit back and think about the wisdom in these posts. Everyone here has your best interests in mind, and we truly care for you. You are choosing to spin your wheels and not go anywhere, and you have the power to take steps to change that!

4 words as requested:

"Work's insane! More later."

LL

Cop out - don't address anything anyone said -
How about - you guys are right....

Need to direct thoughts...

Is what I believe Faith was looking for...but again you do your own thing rather than listening to reason.

I am so surprised these good people keep banging their heads against a STONE wall for you. I've given up long ago....my head mustn't be as stubborn as theirs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Well I interpreted it to mean, "I'm busy, but I'll be back"......

I want to point out something good about LL....she sure is able to take peoples frustrations here w/ her pretty well

DW

Which is how it was meant to be interpreted...

Work was very hectic today and there are major deadlines tomorrow. Barely time to read comments; no time to respond. Left late this eve, hit Target for necessities, came home and unpacked, phone rang, hung up at 11pm, fixed myself supper, visited with kids, and at midnight am now sitting down to respond.

First, that 4-word response you are asking for:

[color:"red"] "I will consider Al-Anon"
[/color]
Not a definite "yes" but NOT definite "no" either. I will discuss with my therapist. There are several more groups in the city. The two I attended were the closest to where I live, but there have to be better meetings out there than they were. I want more than 3-4 people there. They never mentioned a sponsor either.

Please try and see the positives. I am starting therapy. I have every intention of sticking with it this time. I am going to check out some other churches. And I am trying hard refocus when I start to "what if" about the future...with prayer, music, noise of some kind, whatever it takes. Not always successful, but it's progress. Given how lousy I've felt for weeks, I could have easily called in sick a time or two, but I haven't. I've also forced myself this week to take care of some finance things here at home that I'd put off for months. The sense of accomplishment last night when I entered the last of the information was a good feeling.

As for saying I didn't need help with relationships or organizing my house, on the former I probably misinterpreted the statement. I get along very well with my coworkers. That's what I thought you meant. But as for building relationships, no, I'm not friends with any of them outside work. I think that was the point you were making?

As for the latter--home organization--if I said I didn't have issues there, I must have had a delusional moment. I share many of my daughter's ADHD tendencies, especially those having to do with organization and staying on task so my house (and office) is and has always been disorganized. I'm not sure how Al-Anon can help--would love more explanation.
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Now will come the 2x4's:

R reminded me tonight when he called that I am invited to come over there for New Year's Eve. I have agreed to go.

I believe last night, when I called him after the Alamo Bowl to talk FB, was the only time I initiated a call to him since the weekend. I have been silent. He ends up calling me. I've sent only two short emails this week, one of which was responding to something from him. I am trying to back off.

Granted, I tend to be more calm if he calls, and that bothers me. I want to be calm REGARDLESS. I'm concerned about how the weekend will go, or how I'll feel after it's over. I'm worried about my strength in maintaining better boundaries this time, should he push again. But worrying before it happens is stupid. Praying is more beneficial, so I'm focusing there.

But you're right. I'm stubborn. R refers to me as "pig-headed". It takes a lot of repetition to get through to me, to really convince me of something. I have to analyze it to death first. I understand your frustration. I frustrate myself.

I could tell you you're all wrong and that I'm sure he's 100% the right one for me. But I've listened to what you've had to say, and I'm not 100% sure anymore. I still care very much for him (that's hard to just shut off), but I'm watching and analyzing. There are things I'm uncomfortable with having to do with whether or not he truly is a believer.

I still get off on mental tangents where I'm trying to guess the future, but I'm trying to catch myself and then repeat a verse I like over and over to change my thoughts.

"Do not fear, for I am with you. Do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you. I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." (Isaiah 41:10)

(I originally memorized it when I was stressing right after 9/11).

LL