Lordslady - you are your own worst enemy and frankly you will have no one to blame but yourself... Instead of working on yourself this holiday weekend and trying to start off the year as a new beginning and living a life that you want and that you require.. You are going over to his house and you are going to sleep over and you know you are going to end up in his bed... and really I dont' think anyone can blame him -- You are and will be putting yourself in this situation.... Havent you heard what anyone has said??? - you need to work on yourself and your relationship with your daughter .. but nope first phone call and you running back over there...

THUNK

THUNK

THUNK

THUNK

That is the sounds of many heads beating against the wall.

Glad to hear you are going to be in therapy. Try some meds for the ADD and see if you can find a psychologist/counselor/therapist to help you work on the ADD issues.

Focus on the healing that needs to go on in your own home. You can do this....you CAN live a more sane life.

LL, I'd like to commend you, again, for starting therapy and for your willingness to keep coming back despite the frustration directed at you. I also agree that your reasons for not liking the Al-Anon meetings nearest to you are valid - you need to feel comfortable and a somewhat larger group with more emphasis on sponsorship, as well as the steps and traditions might be a better fit for you. I'd suggest attending a meeting several times before you completely write it off. As for how Al-Anon can help with seemingly unrelated problems, Al-Anon teaches a new way of life that influences every area of our lives. It's not a cookbook you can follow to get what you want, it's about turning "our will and our lives over to the care of a power greater than ourselves", which is a process. It's also about keeping the focus on ourselves by learning to love and accept ourselves enough to be able to look at our shortcomings, the behaviors we've relied on for years that no longer benefit us, and let them go.

As for your BF, I don't have the negative impression of him some others here do. I understand his frustration and confusion with your change of heart. I hope as you work on your issues in therapy, it will help you build a healthier relationship with him as well as with yourself.

As for this weekend, how about a friend/your therapist/someone here you can call if you start to feel weak in your convictions? It will be hard to stay with him without sex - you know the old adage about closing the barn door after the cow's already gone - but it can be done. You need to start now by sticking to your words, and beliefs, on this one. If you need to leave and stay in a motel, then do it. I think making a back-up plan, in advance, would help. Hope you have a wonderful time and come home feeling proud of yourself.

I dont have negative feelings about her boyfriend - I just think she is driving herself nuts - getting into this situation - and then she will end up sleeping with him and confusing him all the more - and freaking herself out - about how bad she is - and this isn't what she wanted - or what she believed in... Personally I think she wants to believe in something that she really doesn't believe in..

Maw, I understand why you feel that way because here, many of us have had to learn the hard way to believe only what others do rather than what they say. Since LL's words and behavior have been at odds on this issue, it's clear she's conflicted. Hopefully this is one of the areas she'll focus on in therapy - either fully committing to celibacy outside of marriage, or accepting a less stringent standard without beating herself up. For now, out of respect for LL, I can only accept her word that her desire is to maintain this high standard for herself and to find a man who will honor her choice on this.

Okay gals,

Truly, I have mixed feelings about going. I have strong feelings for him still and very much want to see him. It's been 3 weeks and I miss him. On the other hand, I am scared of boundaries, or rather my historical failure at enforcing them. I am also nervous about being with him in person again and feeling like things are good, and then leaving and realizing that nothing is resolved and that odds are not in our favor. It's almost easier not to see him at all. That false hope really hurt last time. I don't want to do that again. But if tell him I'm not coming (which would basically drive the final stake into our relationship), I will forever think "what if I'd gone". That I am sure of.

I am thinking hard on boundaries, and sleeping arrangements (if his son decides not to stay at his place Saturday night), etc. There are no motels in his town or within 25 miles of it (it's truly SMALL town Iowa), but if nothing else, I could just get in my car after midnight and make the 115 mile drive home. Not the safest thing to do on New Year's Eve, but better than the alternative if it looks like boundaries are an issue. That right now is my backup plan. (Well, the other one is that I'm going to try my best to push for his son to spend Saturday night at the apartment with us which creates a "slumber party' atmosphere in the living room. If that doesn't happen, I need to come up with serious strength to say "I'm sleeping on the couch tonight" despite what will be a very strong desire of mine to snuggle with him. Snuggling in itself wasn't the issue, it was waking up next to him in the morning that caused the problem.)

I'm not worried about sleeping with him as in "going all the way". I have made it through four times seeing him, one of which included two nights at his apartment without his kids there, and not had sex with him. But what DID happen went further than what I was comfortable with, and further than what I am certain God says is okay. That's what I have to prevent this time. And I don't totally trust myself to stop him once things get heated. So I have to stop BEFORE they get to that point. And then, if I put my foot down, and he gets angry because I stop him, then I have to pray for strength to stand tough and remember I am only responsible for how I deal with things, not with how he deals with them, and I need to deal with them in a way I can feel comfortable with afterwards. (I KNOW this, I just have to find the internal strength to DO it.)

I'm feeling guilty because I'm doing something that you all think is stupid. I sort of feel like I'm a WS who is doing something very wrong by seeing this person, and everyone is trying to reason with me and I'm in "the fog". But at least I am not seeing him as perfect anymore. I don't know if that's progress or not.

As for quality time with my daughter--she already has plans with friends for that night, as does my son. No one is going to be around the house but me and the dogs. I've known this for over a week. And if I tried to force my daughter to stay home with me, all that would ensue would be an ugly power struggle. There would be no "quality time".

I AM trying to work on myself. I found a therapist. And yes, I am serious when I say I will try and find a different Al-Anon group--not in the next 3 days, but sometime in January.

I don't have strong feelings that this thing with R and I will ultimately succeed. Thare some huge hurdles. But being pig-headed, I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet--not when I'm not more sure. And I think the therapist is thinking, in making a support network my first goal, that if it does need to end, it will be easier to cope with if I have good support, vs. if I'm doing it alone.

So as of this moment, I have chosen to spend NY Eve with people I enjoy being around if I don't psych myself out between now and then. I truly do really like his family. I am not going over until Saturday mid-afternoon, and I am planning on coming home on Sunday, so there should only be one night to deal with.

I'm trying to look at it as an opportunity to see if he's serious and see how he behaves. I'm not expecting perfection, but I am expecting him not to push as far as he did last time, because he is aware of the lines that were crossed and my feelings about that.

LL's goals for 2006: STOP OVERANALYZING things maybe?

LL

AGG's suggested variant : "LL, STOP PUTTING YOURSELF in situations that you know (or should know) will cause you grief and drama".

He told you he is conflicted and can't control himself around you.

You told us you can't control yourself around him.

So why on earth are you going over there for an overnight trip?

Even if "nothing happens", you are probably guaranteed to create tension, anxiety, and drama - the very things that neither you nor he needs right now.

And you still ask us why we think you are a drama queen? Look at your actions, LL, you can't live without drama - so drama is what you will be reporting to us come Sunday - we both know it.

Happy New Year, but I wish you stayed home.

AGG

I hope I’m wrong… I hope I’m wrong… I hope I’m wrong…

“””On the other hand, I am scared of boundaries, or rather my historical failure at enforcing them.”””

Which is proof that you shouldn’t go. Again using the alcoholic scenario, if an alcoholic is new in recovery and doesn’t wish to drink he wouldn’t go sit in a bar, yet you are going to go sit in the bar. It’s unreasonable to think that something won’t happen.

“””I will forever think "what if I'd gone". That I am sure of. “””

So it’s much better to thing “Why did I go, I knew I would do things I didn’t mean to do”…

”””I am thinking hard on boundaries, and sleeping arrangements …..but better than the alternative if it looks like boundaries are an issue.”””

I’ll be the first to make the prediction that there will be different sleeping arrangements and you won’t have to worry about that…

“””I'm feeling guilty because I'm doing something that you all think is stupid.”””

In recovery there is a simple phrase “Do the next right thing”. That is simple yet there are times when we truly don’t know what the next right thing is. At those times, simply do not do the wrong thing. This guilt you feel is an indication of the wrong thing and yes IMVHO it is STUPID.

“””I'm trying to look at it as an opportunity to see if he's serious and see how he behaves.”””

And what will you do if he disrespects one of your boundaries?

Just say [color:"red"]"NO" [/color]and stay home.

I agree, doing an overnight given our situation is not particularly bright, and I can't blame any of you if you refuse to continue corresponding with me on here after this weekend...

I think the anxiety is coming from the fear of getting hurt no matter which way I would decide. Reject invite and stay home; get hurt because it ends the relationship. Go, and get hurt because I'll get my hopes up, he will hit his sexually frustrated wall, and we'll end up tense and "undecided" again.

That said, I told him I was going, I miss him, it's been 3 weeks since I've seen him, they are expecting me, and so I am going.

It's not that I'm sitting here just certain I'll violate another boundary. It's more that I'm very nervous of how he'll react when/if I need to stop him. When he gets "chilly" and non-committal, it hurts me.

This week has been more relaxed on the phone. He's been calling me. And yesterday he was still on vacation but was basically just hanging at home doing nothing, and he called me probably 5 different times. He did ask if I was staying Sunday night as well. I told him no, that it was pushing things too much. (He won't have his kids that night--too much risk.)

[color:"purple"] So, if you really want to help me but you know I'm going, give me some constructive ideas on keeping things on the up and up. [/color]

I have not discussed sleeping arrangements yet because I don't know if his son is staying at the apartment. If he is, it's a moot point. If he's not, one of us needs to sleep on the couch.

And sorry about being a little graphic here, but I am aware that the move that doomed us last time was when my hands left their stated "safe zone" above the waist. It may have been prompted by him, but it was a decision I made, and a very dumb one. He has been pretty good about respecting my boundary of keeping his hands above my waist. One or two tries were quickly nixed and he got the point.

My sister just called. Her take is that this is my chance to really prove what my boundaries are and stick to them and see how he reacts. She agrees that not going would be the death of whatever relationship we have left. But she also has pointed out that I need to go with no expectations of the relationship continuing, and just enjoy the time with him and his family for what it is, knowing that his decision may very easily be that he can't deal with the frustration and he may end things. That's hard, too.

LL

Thanks God, you stopped calling it your 'beliefs';
'boundaries' hurts my ears a lot less.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I want so much to prove this weekend to all you guys, to R, to myself, and to God, that I can do what I say I am going to do and stand firm by my boundaries. I really, really DO want to accomplish something positive in this respect. I want to come home and say "I did it right this time". If I could do it once, it should be easier to do it a second time, right?

And maybe part of my issue is that I still haven't decided if the boundaries I've set are still too far to go. I can about convince myself sometimes that it's wrong to do anything beyond simple hand-holding, but on the other hand that to me seems unreasonable in dating.

I don't want to succeed only by default (not going near him) because that proves nothing to me. It's hard prove you're strong enough to do it if you're just sitting home with the dogs. I feel no sense of accomplishment there--just a feeling of fear that next time I'm with him or some other guy, I'll face the same issue.

I also want so much to trust that God will give me strength if R decides the frustration is too much and opts to stop seeing me. That is the really scary part. I'm not ready for that. You all know that. And I know I could be setting myself up for that this weekend by holding tight to my boundaries.

I know you think I'm nuts. I'm just trying to share what's going through my mind.

LL

Sort of like a recovering alcoholic insisting on going to a bar to "prove" that he doesn't need a drink... Play with fire, LL, you know the rest...

AGG

[color:"blue"] LL [/color]
Just popping in...hope to hear a report when you have a chance to post <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LL, Hope your weekend went well. I have to disagree with AGG. To continue the addiction analogy, I'd liken it more to a recovering overeater who has to eat, just not overdo it, than to a recovering alcoholic who has to abstain completely. At some point you're going to have to learn how to maintain your boundaries with SF, so it might as well be now with R. Maybe it would be easier if you hadn't already crossed your own boundaries but that's not where you are right now. This is all about respecting and honoring yourself.

So,does mean that LL decided to stay an extra night after all???

cm

I respect the differing viewpoints, but see a basic flaw in this logic. Food is a necessity, one has to eat, so abstaining from food is not an option, even for an overeater.

Booze to an alcoholic, like overnight visits between two people who both are unable to control their hormones, is totally optional and unwise. Sorry, but I do not buy into the idea of going to a bar (or an overnight visit) just to "prove" that they can.

I doubt that anything good will/did come out of LL's visit.

AGG

I thought about starting a new thread, but let's just keep it all on this one...

First, no I didn't stay the extra night. I got home around midnight.

Second, yes I did change my mind and I slept (as in zzzz) in his bed with him last night. He promised he wouldn't cause trouble, and I had decided the moment he did I was going to the couch.

But the big news is this: The boundaries remained uncrossed. I am very aware of how difficult it was for him (it's not exactly a cake walk for me either), but he did an excellent job backing off and taking a breather when he knew he was getting close to crossing lines.

It was just a very nice weekend--we spent most of it at his parents' house with them and his kids, watching movies and New Year's tv, cuddling on their couch with football today, or just visiting with family. We were only at his apartment overnight and then this evening when we came back to watch a movie.
--------------------------------------------------------

But now is where it all starts to get a little surreal. This was why I almost started another thread...

Less than an hour before I had to leave tonight, out of the blue he says very seriously, "LL, I can't see you and continue to do what we just did. We're going to either have to get married or break things off."

Uh...buh...ub...(LL fumbling for words)...

First, the only thing I heard was the "break things off" part. My heart totally sunk, after just spending this awesome weekend where he gave it his all to show me he cared and respected me. And then he kept talking.

So I'm going to try and write down what I remember, as best I can, because it sort of is swimming in my head.

He told me that he has been giving our situation a lot of thought, and that after not seeing me for three weeks, which he realized he didn't like at all, seeing me this weekend he realized that the feelings and emotions and everything all came together, and that things between us just feel "right" to him. He realizes that we haven't known each other for all that long and he still has some questions and concerns about certain things. He's not so concerned about what his parents would think, but is more concerned about his kids' reaction if we got married. There are also the issues with distance for the first couple years.

I said, "so what are you saying?"

He said he thought maybe we could book a vacation over spring break at the very end of March to Las Vegas and get married.

I said, "I really need to know if you're being serious here."

His reponse, "I pretty much laid it all out just now, didn't I?"

Given that guys aren't always as good at expressing emotions as women are in a non-sexual way, I will take that to mean this guy is darned serious about me and truly has been struggling with what to do.

I don't even know what to think at this moment. He has admitted he's not even sure how to deal with next weekend, or the following weekend, or the following... This to me means that he could still decide that "breaking things off" is the only option.

But if that's the direction he was going, why would he have brought up the Vegas idea or told me how right he feels with me, and how he realized this weekend that everything just sort of came together.

He also said that he doesn't want to just get married because of feeling like a gun is being held to his head, but then he went back to how things feel "right" with me and how much he enjoys spending time with me. He also said he thinks sometimes he's overly cautious because of his past experiences. He's afraid of marrying someone and having them change into something totally different, and regretting his decision 2 years down the road. He wants his next marriage to be his last. I second that.

I don't think it was a proposal per se. But it has definitely been tossed out there for discussion, and he has taken my statement about making a decision one way or the other to heart. We spent a weekend together, and it was wonderful, and yet exceedingly difficult all at the same time.

There is a lot to talk about. I have no idea where to start with him, whether to let him just bring it up again, or what to even do. I don't want to push. But neither do I want to act uninterested, because I'm most definitely interested, although there would be things we need to resolve.

I have prayed that God would somehow work things out. Maybe this is it? Maybe I'm just delusional and he's going to decide he was nuts to bring up marriage and he'll choose Option B instead.

I'm sure you all think I'm nuts at this point...

LL

See, I toldya you shouldn't have gone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />!! Sounds very encouraging, congrats!

AGG

My head is still sort of spinning. It seems too good at this point, so I'm waiting for the bomb to drop. Maybe it actually won't this time.

I called him this morning. I really needed clarification that I did or didn't hear all that right last night. I told him I figured I gave him my deer-in-the-headlights look when he said what he said. I explainded that it was due to my hearing only the "break up" part the first time and not having a clue how to react after having such an awesome weekend.

He laughed and said I had a rather dumbfounded look on my face and he figured I was wondering what in the world I'd just heard.

So I said, "Let me clarify, you're not wanting to break up with me."

His reply, "LL, I practically proposed to you last night, and you are still needing to clarify?"

Okay...got it.

We didn't talk long this morning. I'm not really sure what all to say. We know we have lots of talking to do. And a big thing we're going to have to work out, as he has so honestly stated, is how we're going to handle things going forward, because it IS very difficult to see him and for us not to cross those boundaries.

I reminded him that we've made it six weeks now since we stopped the sex and said that's a good thing. He countered, "It's not a good thing, though it may be the right thing." Okay, I stand corrected. It doesn't feel "good", but it does feel "right". So that's going to be a big hurdle, and one right now I don't have many answers for.

I want to see him. He wants to see me, it would appear. It's just figuring out how to do it without compromising boundaries and without putting him through h*ll to maintain them.

Now, for anyone who reads this: Yes, I do intend to keep seeing the therapist and working through my own issues. How this plays out may make it even more critical. Yes, I am still intending on looking for a church more geared to what I need. And I'm not ruling out Al-Anon either.

I think my goal for 2006 needs to be to take things one day at a time. If I worry about all that could happen going forward and how this could all play out, it could drive me nuts.

LL