Good for you LL and congratulations!

Please, print this out and post it on your mirror and elsewhere. Let God work in your life by not trying to second guess the future, okay! Honestly, I'm really happy for you and truly believe you can work out the long distance problem.

I wish I had something encouraging to say, lordslady, but honestly I'm not feeling too good about this.

Suppose you marry this guy, and suppose you find a way to continue satisfying the "letter of the law" as you understand it until your wedding day. What troubles me is my suspicion that from your perspective, you would unequivocally consider this to be a successful outcome.

I'm still missing any sense from you that you are earnestly desiring to know what God wants for you and for your life, beyond the rather narrow bounds of the thou-shalt-nots - which you mostly seem to want to know in order to avoid punishment.

How is this relationship bringing you closer to God? How is it helping you to grow deeper in His service?

Perhaps I'm looking for too much. Personally, I would not be willing to marry a woman just because I loved her, or were "in love" with her, or because I wanted to get married again and it just "felt right." But most Christians today seem content to be lukewarm in their faith, in the Laodicean fashion; and although that must surely disappoint God, it doesn't stop Him from loving us anyway or from doing what He can to bless us within the limits of what opportunities our choices provide.

In Pride and Prejudice, Charlotte Lucas was content with her choice to marry a man she could not fully respect. She wanted security in a home of her own, and she got what she wanted. Elizabeth Bennett rejected that same man's marriage proposal, choosing to risk never marrying rather than compromise her ideal of marrying someone she could love and respect.

In the end, both woman married without compromising their individual standards. But Elizabeth got the better deal because she held out for a higher standard.

Of course, that's just a fictional story told by an author whose ideals were apparent through her writing - but who wrote of a happy ending which she herself never experienced.

I like to think that my ideals are founded on the reality of a God Who loves me and Who wants what is best for me, whether or not that's what feels best to me at the time.

<applause to LetsTry and Gnome>

I'm here LL. Not sure what I think yet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> They both made some excellent points. I'll try to gather some thoughts for you. I know your head is swimming!!!

((((((LL))))))

GDP,


Um, yeah...I guess you could say that. But it's not just because of satisfying that one law. If you love someone, isn't your eventual desire to spend your life with them?

As for the whole punishment thing, I can't put my finger on that exactly. It's not that I could actually define what my fear was of continuing down the path I was going. I just knew it was wrong. God said "don't do it" and I take his word literally.

As for the letter of the law, I know what you are getting at. I go back and forth. And this may sound crazy, but I actually was thankful to God that he gave R the strength to maintain the boundaries he maintained, because I do know how difficult the situation was. I actually saw it as great progress, both on the boundaries front and where it came to R and his feelings for me and desires for a future. If he didn't care, he would have pushed much harder. And in my mind, if he didn't at least on some level feel that abstaining is what God wants outside marriage, again, he would have pushed hard. (He's already conceded that scripture does say we shouldn't do it, but that he struggles with that...this weekend his actions backed it up, even though he was honest about how difficult and frustrating it is and how what we did this weekend can't continue because it will drive him nuts.)

The way he acted this weekend has given me renewed hope that he truly is a believer, but just one who has weaknesses and struggles and needs to grow. I'm sort of there, too. I have no room to talk. My weaknesses may just be different ones.

I don't want to grieve God. But I've prayed and prayed for a Christian marriage. And in being totally honest, yes, if I felt the person was a believer and I loved them and it "felt right", that would be enough for me to marry them.

I guess I've been one who has felt that my service to God right now is in how I live my life and what kind of a witness I am to others. I don't feel this huge calling to be a pastor's wife or a missionary or something like that.

How has this relationship brought me closer to God? Well, at least until a month ago, it hadn't at all. From there I've been all over the board. Right now, I don't feel as close as I have at other points in my life. And that is probably because of how things played out and my lack of faith in God to sustain me no matter what.

So last night I was driving home and I kept thinking about how I've prayed for God to work in my relationship with R, and how I've prayed for him to work in R's heart. And so when he held better to boundaries than he has in weeks, and when he then shared his feelings for me and brought up the marriage idea, I felt like this was God showing me how he has worked and giving me proof of his faithfulness to help strengthen my faith.

LL

I'm soooo biting my tongue this time!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

No, if you love someone, your desire is to do whatever is best for them - which may mean spending your life with them, or may mean "letting them go" or may mean any of a number of different things.

I'll buy this. At a minimum, it appears that God has used your attempt to honor His will to show you that standing for your morals isn't going to automatically result in rejection. And it appears that God also used it to induce R to obtain some needed perspective. Both of you should be the better for it. But I would be very hesitant to say more than that.

Honestly, I'm not trying to say "This man is not for you." It would certainly be presumptuous of me to make such a statement - although I don't think that would stop me if I was really convinced of its truth. This could work out well if it goes the way you obviously want it to.

But there are just too many reasons for concern for me to be willing to bet on it.

*swoon*, Gnome, I think I have a crush on you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Ok, I digress..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LL, I don't want to be negative, but I would hate for you all to marry, or rush into it, so you could have sex, b/c on this side of things, that's what it looks like....*shrugs*.....now, for something positive....be proud that you stood up for yourself, by basically telling him to him to er, <blank> or get off the pot. You got him thinking and moving and acting, and basically ended his pity party. I know that was huge for you, as fearful as you are at standing up for yourself.

DW

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Talking about teenagers?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

OK

I knew somehow that would happen, especially when you said he lived in a very small town... and that he has no so much of a sexual life experience...

As I told you many pages ago - I know some women did got what they wanted (marriage) by 'no-sex-before-marriage-tactics'.
I don't see them so happy after all, but, well, they achieved their goal...

I see that the marriage is what you really want and I can just say - congratulations.

It makes me feel sad though, to see how people didn't learn enough from the past experience, then they rush to get married all for wrong reasons... (I hope I'll never lose my mind again and do the same...)
But, you know what, I also don't know so many (i.e. I know too few) married couples that are 'happily after' - at least not without (full-time) hard work.
So, if you do work hard on yourself and your M, everything might be fine.
With my best wishes, here is another advice (that you won't hear, but I'll do 'my part' whatsoever): please be persistant with counseling, working on yourself, your insecurity, anxiety, above all - please don't give up your daughter; I do believe it's not late you have some positive influence on her.

I have to say, I would have been far more impressed with LL's boyfriend had he agreed to pursue the relationship without the sex. By proposing to her this way, it looks like he's just giving in for the sake of having sex again. This isn't good footing for a relationship, in my opinion...

What's more important to you, LL? Not having sex before you marry him or jumping into a relationship that could lead to another divorce? There are children to consider in this relationship, not to mention unresolved relationship issues on both sides of this partnership.

I'm not feeling the warm and fuzzies about this. In my opinion, this guy REALLY is ruled by his genitalia. Cripes--he wouldn't even ENTERTAIN the idea of marriage before the sex was cut off and now he's proposing....ugh... [color:"red"]DANGER! DANGER! DANGER! [/color]

GDP,

Okay, you do give a more accurate description of love. I do want what is best for him, too. I just see us a two people who overall seem pretty well suited for each other. I feel very good when I'm with him, and I miss him dearly when I have to leave him. And he has stated that he feels good when he's with me as well. So it wouldn't seem to me that the best thing would be to stop seeing each other. It makes more sense to me to somehow work past this very tall hurdle of staying on the up-and-up unless/until we are married.

DW,

You are not incorrect in saying that being able to enjoy physical intimacy with him again played a big part in this new situation of a possible suggestion of marriage. But it is for sure not the only reason I'm feeling this way.

First, yes, if we married at 8.5 months that could be viewed as rushing to all the "two year" people. But we're not talking about meeting and marrying all within 3 months.

Second, good physical chemistry is not the only thing we have going for us. We get along great--we've had very few true disagreements--and we've worked through them very well. He is very family-oriented and spends quite a bit of time with his parents and his kids which means that being with him, I've spent oodles of time with them, too, and we get along very well. I feel quite comfortable in their home. He is also rather a homebody just like I am so we've been very compatable in our dating life, because neither of us has this big desire to go out and do things and spend money. We do fine with microwave popcorn and M&M's and a DVD. We neither one are neat-freaks. We are both cold-blooded so we enjoy about the same room temp, shower temp (yes, gave that up, too), and bed temp. We both aspire to retire to a warm-weather destination someday. He's taught me all about his fave sport--football--and I've really come to enjoy it (so we do well there with recreational companionship...he was initially worried about how I'd handle being with a football fanatic this fall.) We share the same intellect, he has a good sense of humor, we are very attracted to each other, and I truly do believe we share core beliefs (still asking questions there).

I'm sure I could list a lot more. There are obviously concerns, too, and a couple of them aren't small.

And even though he stated that he "practically proposed" to me last night, I realize it wasn't a true proposal. Being very out of practice with this type of thing, I have no idea what he's thinking--if he's really intending to move in that direction and just waiting for the right time for the real thing, or if he was just tossing out an idea last night. But I assume this isn't something I can ask him as the woman, right?

And that physical intimacy hurdle. How does one handle that with someone who has stated that he can't continue to do what he did this weekend because the frustration is extreme? I don't fault him for that. He's just being honest. I think it means, "LL, I want to do the right thing but I can't continue to be in that situation because I don't trust myself. It is too tempting and too frustrating."

Yep, lots to think/talk about.

LL

B2M,

I do appreciate your opinion. Truly, giving up sex was not a tactic to just get him to marry me. It was a very difficult decision and one that has had a huge effect on our relationship, and still has the potential to end it. But it is what I believe is "right".

As for learning from our past, I married an alcoholic. That was my biggest mistake. Had he not have been a substance abuser, he probably wouldn't have had the affair with the woman who parties along with him, and we'd have still been married.

R isn't an alcoholic, and in fact rarely ever drinks. He came from a 15 year marriage himself. Given that both he and I married very young the first time (I was 19 and he was 20), add to it that we both had kids right away, and then look at the fact that our marriages lasted 19 and 15 years respectively (very unusual for young marriages) and for both of us they ended because our spouse left us for someone else, I think in that respect our odds are good [color:"red"] IF [/color] things should actually end in marriage for us. It is by no means a given at all at this point.

LL

“””He's just being honest. I think it means, "LL, I want to do the right thing but I can't continue to be in that situation because I don't trust myself. It is too tempting and too frustrating."”””

Hey, LL, you know I have to dump in my two cents worth. I stopped by the office and read you unromantic novel of the weekend turn of events and have to say, I see things a little different than you. I don’t see him saying that at all, to me it’s more like him saying “My desire for sex is greater than my desire to build a relationship based upon communication, honesty, and respect for each other, therefore let’s get married so we can do it”…..

Sorry, I call ‘em as I see ‘em…..

When is your next counseling appointment? What I would highly recommend is that you work through EVERYTHING in counseling and get HEALTHY before marrying again…. Do you think that can happen in a matter of months? Think about it, 19 years of chaos has to be unraveled to find your true identity and worth, then and only then will you know if this proposal or lack there of is valid…..

aeri,


Okay, first, he hasn't actually proposed to me yet. I've not been given the opportunity actually accept a proposal. He hasn't made any formal commitment that I am aware of at this point.

And second, while sex does play a part, I think what it has done is caused him to truly assess his feelings for me. He used to tell me, when we'd discuss the 2-year thing, that he wanted things to feel "right" with someone--that he didn't want to rush a relationship given his history. So when he said last night that things feel "right" with me, I think that's what he meant.


I don't see those two as an either/or choice. I'm not going to continue in a sexual relationship with him.


Okay, first I'm going to make rather a blanket statement just based on the guys I've known in my life (friends, family, coworkers...everyone but my 'ex' who made me go 9 months without once): Most guys have very strong sex drives. Why is SF often a #1 or #2 need? I am well aware that most guys wouldn't have even entertained a relationship with me once I pulled sex out of it. He has at least stuck around this long and is trying to make it work.

He had talked many times of "future" with us, just not actually using the "M" word. However, we'd both been very upfront in the beginning about our thoughts on living together and how we won't do it, so to have a future with him would have meant marriage at some point.

LL

What? Stuck around? Tried to make it work? You must have seen a bunch of stuff you didn't report here....

Please.... explain this. Do you mean.... "he didn't dump me right off the bat"? The opposite of "not being dumped" is not sticking around and working on the relationship. is it?

LH,

You're being a downer... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I know, you're only being honest because you care, and I appreciate that.

I have no idea how long it will take to unravel things. I do know that I can't financially afford therapy for a great amount of time, especially once I meet my number of visits per year that insurance will pay a portion of. I was hoping that it would slow considerably after the first few months. As for my next session, it's tomorrow.

As for R, I do feel that he's trying hard to be honest with me. Honesty may just be things that aren't always easy to hear, like the fact that he knows he has a very strong desire for the physical. He has been upfront about that since the beginning.

As for respect, maybe I don't have a clue what respect is because I wasn't respected. I can't really answer that. I feel respected by him, and I did feel respected this weekend. He was honest about his desires, and honest about not being able to continue this way, but he DID work very hard to not act on those desires this weekend. That took effort on his part, and that to me was respect for me.

And truly, this may all be blown way out of proportion. He has not yet proposed to me. I'm afraid to get my hopes up because he could easily decide not to at all. I don't know...do guys say what he did and then not actually follow through with a proposal? Probably all the time.

Then this is all for naught anyway.

LL

Now... my general thoughts about everything. I have no idea if your marriage could work or not... or where his heart truly is... or your heart.... or any of that. (Sometimes I think you just really want to be married. Period. And are terrified of being alone, and that is the wrong reason to be married. Even if this is true, he could be the right guy... we just don't know.)

But I do know that you need to continue counseling.... please.... regardless of what ya'll decide.

Faith,


He was honest with me that he was "conflicted", that 50% of the time he thought about me and how wonderfully we get along and wondered why he was letting this be such a big deal, and the other 50% of the time he was thinking it could never work and he'd made a dumb decision getting into a distance relationship. I reported exactly what happened. He didn't see me for three weeks. His calls got short and sweet for a while. It appeared to me that he was backing away and getting ready to move on. That's what I reported because that's the feeling I was getting.

This last week he has been calling me if I don't call him, and talking longer, and been more relaxed. He also chose to invite me over and take a chance on us, even with his kids being there. (His son is very fond of me...R's dad made that mention again last night.)

Maybe I misinterpreted some of his actions (or maybe I didn't). Maybe he really did keep me away because he wasn't sure how to act around me? Maybe he did keep me away because he didn't want his kids and I growing closer until he decided what he was going to do? (the two weekends we didn't see each other were both kid weekends for him). He mentioned wanting to protect them.

This was a big blow to him, especially the way I dropped it sort of out of the blue. Maybe he did need to think on it for a while.

I don't know. Maybe I misread things. Or maybe I didn't.

LL

Quote

Okay, first, he hasn't actually proposed to me yet. I've not been given the opportunity actually accept a proposal. He hasn't made any formal commitment that I am aware of at this point.

LL--from what I understand, when you first told him that you weren't comfortable continuing with the sexual aspect of your relationship, he wasn't even willing to visit, let alone continue dating you with any set frequency. What concerns me is after three weeks, he's willing to consider marriage. If waiting two years was important in the beginning, why has that dynamic suddenly changed? Regardless of whether this was a true proposal, it didn't come up so casually three weeks ago....

Quote

And second, while sex does play a part, I think what it has done is caused him to truly assess his feelings for me. He used to tell me, when we'd discuss the 2-year thing, that he wanted things to feel "right" with someone--that he didn't want to rush a relationship given his history. So when he said last night that things feel "right" with me, I think that's what he meant.

I think something is seriously wrong with a grown man that requires LACK OF SEX to force him to re-evaluate how he feels about someone. He should have known whether you were "right" for him through your conversations and through your interactions.

Quote

Most guys have very strong sex drives. Why is SF often a #1 or #2 need? I am well aware that most guys wouldn't have even entertained a relationship with me once I pulled sex out of it. He has at least stuck around this long and is trying to make it work.

[censored], [censored], [censored]!!!

LL--you're using this generalization to justify this man's actions! My Husband (who, incidently, has a very healthly sexual appetite) was more than happy to go without sex for 8 month stretches and was even willing to wait until we married to have sex, if it meant he could be with ME. Your problem is that you have LOW SELF-ESTEEM! You believe that this man is a PRIZE because he didn't run---you're wrong, sister.....

Your problem is that you're comparing this man to your ex-Husband. Of course, as long as this man isn't an alcoholic and he respects your religious beliefs, he seems like the perfect man. You're not looking at the big picture and you're ignoring warning signs that are indicators of potential problem areas.

Do you think that enjoying the same room temperature and understanding his love of football are important factors in a good relationship? Those things are so miniscule! They mean virtually nothing, yet you cite these as REASONS why you're perfect for each other! Incredible! I'm dumbfounded!

Quote

Maybe I misinterpreted some of his actions (or maybe I didn't). Maybe he really did keep me away because he wasn't sure how to act around me? Maybe he did keep me away because he didn't want his kids and I growing closer until he decided what he was going to do? (the two weekends we didn't see each other were both kid weekends for him). He mentioned wanting to protect them.

Yes, you misinterpreted his actions.

He didn't bother to phone you...when he did, he didn't want to discuss the relationship. While you sat home, anxious, taking tranquilizers to sleep, he went on his merry way, looking for the bigger, better deal....

When Prince Charming realized that perhaps he couldn't find better than you, he decided to send out the bait again and lure you in (see the half-assed invitation for New Year's Eve)...now, he's resigned himself to the fact that it's better to wait a few months for sex than to strike out and find someone new. His favorite quote must be: "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush"......

Verrrrrrrrrry romantic.

You overanalyze, LL--this much is true...you just don't analyze logically.

Why was protecting his children an issue AFTER you stopped having sex with him? Could it be that NOT having sex was a complete DEAL BREAKER for him and he was going to dump you ANYWAYS, so it wasn't feasible to have you getting close to his children? It's just SO clear to me that this guy was ready to dump you the moment you didn't want to sleep with him anymore....

I have a question--does this new man know about YOUR history with your ex-Husband? I did some background reading and it seems that although your ex-H left you for someone else, you ALSO cheated on your H. Is this something you intend to disclose?

I know it would be best not to even reply to your post. But then again, I don't always do what is best. It is uncommon for me to come out with guns blazing at someone on here unless it really struck a nerve. You did...

Let's just address that issue first:


Perhaps you should have done a bit more background reading before you made that accusation. First, yes I was unfaithful. I am very sorry for what I did, and I have long ago repented and asked forgiveness even though what I did will always be with me. I won't go into more detail than that other than to say that unlike my husband, I did NOT walk away from my marriage. I wanted my husband; I loved him. He did not want me.

But that said, if you'd read a little more you'd see that right at the beginning of my dating R, I DID disclose everything about my past to him. He has done the same thing with me. I wanted the relationship to be based on honesty.

These things, along with the issues with my daughter are a major part of why he wanted the 2 years to get to know me. His marriage breakup and his 2-year relationship before me left him very gun-shy. He wanted to make sure I was who I said I was and I can't blame him. He wanted to feel "right" about it. He's been open about the "why's" of the 2 years. The other reason for the 2 years was the distance issue. There are some things that prevent him from moving my direction for at least 2 years, and originally I didn't want to move at all.


When I first made my decision, he did indeed consider ending the relationship because he didn't see himself trying to see me for 2 years and not giving in to temptation, and he didn't want to deal with constant frustration. (It's one thing to be apart from the person you love and be abstinent; it's another thing entirely to be with them all the time and deal with the temptation. One is a whole lot easier than the other.) He told me he wanted time to think, and didn't want to make a rushed decision. And he didn't want his kids to be confused or hurt if things seemed one way and all of a sudden went the other. They're older--12, 15 and 20. They are very aware of what's going on in their dad's life.



Uh, EXCUSE ME?? He never once dated nor even looked for a date with anyone else. While I was very worried that he was getting ready to do this, because things felt so distant between us, he openly told me a couple times that though he was conflicted and wasn't sure what he needed to do, he was by no means looking for anyone else to date. If he chose to date, he could have easily found people to go out with. He has been open about his dating history, and no matter how many times he tells things or what questions I've asked, there haven't been any stories that come out differently the second time than the first. I believe him.


Okay, let me toss out a few others. We enjoy each other's company, we are both very affectionate--enjoy touch, he has older kids as do I, so we are both looking at quite a bit of freedom in the next few years (vs. my finding someone who has a little kid), we neither one want more children, we share common goals of wanting to become financially independent enough that we can retire someday to a warmer climate, we both enjoy road trips, as I said we are homebodies (may sound dumb, but it's important--if one person is very social and the other isn't, it creates tension), we are very similar intellectually, and not to be forgotten, there is good chemistry between us. Oh, he's also very close with his parents and I'm not so much that way, so the issues of where to spend a holiday or trying to figure out which weekend to visit who is not an issue with us like it can be for some families. And I am very comfortable with his family--again, something I think is very important because you don't just get the person, you get their family.


I admit to not having read much of your history, so I very well could be mistaken, but were you seeing each other regularly during those 8 month stretches of abstinance, or were you a continent apart? Did you wait until marriage for sex with him, or was that a hypothetical statement? I gathered from a post of yours that you were intimate during the times you got to see each other, however rare they may have been. It's a lot easier to be abstinent if you're miles away from your partner than it is to do the same thing in an apartment alone with them.

Maybe R is not the pillar of self-control, but in a world where sex is pretty much just expected after a certain date and most people think I'm kooky for giving it up, the control he did show last weekend I feel is worth something.


Can't deny that something has made him reassess things, be it the lack of sex, my telling him he needed to "<blank> or get off the pot", or the three week break of not seeing me and having a chance to figure out how he feels about me. I really don't know.

While I do feel that most people on here really do care and have my best interests at heart, and that they probably get very frustrated with me when I disagree or do dumb things despite their warnings, in your case I feel like you are simply trying to point out everything that is wrong with me, right down to my prior infidelity (which has NOTHING to do with whether R is the right person for me) and your accusation that I have not been honest with him.

LL