Not to worry, you nervous souls...no proposal yet.

But during tonight's conversation we talked a little about things and while I'm not pushing my luck at this second, I said, "So you really are serious."

He said, "Yes, I am. I'm not sure what I can do to make it clearer." (Okay, well the actual proposal would probably do that, but I realize that even *IF* it happens, over the phone is probably not how it would be done.)

So he is planning on seeing me on weekends, somehow. He agreed we won't go three weeks without seeing each other again. We just have to work out the specifics, because none of this changes my boundaries.

LL

LL,

Just a heads up. You most likely will not get an "actual" proposal. This plays out more as a problem solving solution. He's stated his intentions and he's made it clear that he was serious. You got your proposal. Now it's just for you to not say "YES!!!!" but agree to his idea and then you can make plans. Don't expect a proposal.

I'll tell you a little about me. H and I met online. I lived in America, he in Norway. We spent alot of time getting to know each other via the comp but mostly over the phone. He came to visit me for a week. He actually came to help me do some things on my house I wasn't able to do on my own to get it ready to sell. After selling my home (which I was planning to do no matter what) I went to Norway and spent 3 solid months together with him. He wasn't working at the time (summer and he was an instructor) so we were together 24/7. We had a fabulous time. We clicked really well. I'd never been so happy or felt so loved.

I had to go back to the States for immigration reasons for 4 months. Before I left H and I had a talk. We both wanted the R. I wasn't willing to continent hop and needed a real commitment to continue the R which felt "right" for me and I was willing and prepared to change my life to be with him. H expressed that things were moving too fast and he was unsure about marriage (he had actually been the one to bring up the future on many occasions and talked of M). I again said I was sure and very comfortable with the sich. He didn't say anything. I wasn't too bothered based on his previous comments and ideas of our future.

After my return to the States I called him and told him how much I missed him and Norway and how ready I was to move. It was really hard to be away. He said, "You come back as soon as you can and we'll do what we need to do to be together." That was my proposal. We set things in motion to get married and after my return we did what we had to do and got married. I was a little unsure right before but after all the paperwork was done and we had a date with the JP H seemed really happy about it. On our wedding day he was telling everyone about his "wife" and had such a big smile.

Fast forward a few weeks. H suddenly felt trapped into M. H didn't really want to get married. He just followed the program and did what he had to do to be with me. He changed alot. He actually became quite a monster that first year. After a year of devastation for me, he mellowed and finally told me he never really wanted to get married. HE loved me but wasn't ready to marry me. What a crushing blow. It took me a long time to get over those words.

During that first year I tried many things to get away but unfortunetaly I was so sure that this was "right" that I hadn't covered my butt and was stuck here in a foreign country alone. Since he wasn't being a monster anymore I worked on forgiveness and getting to really know the man I married. He was NOT the man I said "I do" to. One problem that can come from LD R's is that you aren't dealing with the real every day moments and stresses together. In my case I found that H's statement, "It's easy to be the Cary Grant of the internet but much harder to live it in real life" was really true. Now remember, we did spend 3 solid months together and CAry Grant lived in all his glory. It's not that tough to put on yoru best face for a weekend visit or an overnighter during the week. The real test comes from real daily contact. Having to deal with those little frustrating moments as well as the big stuff like with your daughter. It's easy to say and do everything right for a short amount of time.

We've been married almost 5 years. 1st year of that was the worst ****** I have ever endured. Years 2,3 and 4 were really hard and I had to work through so much hurt and resentment and H had to make some changes and learn to really love me. This last year has been the best. We are friends now. Just friends (mind you he was the best lover I have ever had). That came after 2 separations this last one being last year where we were apart for 7 months. After coming back H had somewhat of an AH-HA moment although his AH-HA moments are not real waves but more of a ripple. AFter his AH-HA he started being more affectionate again and treating me with love and respect. We've still got a ways to go to really have an M but at least now we are friends and we communicate alot better. My hardest challenge is to love and commit my life to a man who is not my ideal husband.

The biggest mistake I made was not waiting for a real proposal. The one where he was so into me that he couldn't imagine his life without me. The one where he KNEW beyond a doubt that his life wouldn't be life without me. The one where he KNEW I was the one for him and it just didn't feel "right" but any other choice would be wrong.

I fear that your BF has "proposed" out of circumstance and not because he KNOWS. I fear for the reprocussions of that because I have actually lived it. Sure, you might get lucky and it may be different for you but when reality sets in you may find your R isn't what you think it is and your new H isn't who you thought he was.

There are alot of red flags in some very passive agressive behavior on his part. I wish I had seen those in my own R but I didn't, I chose not to or I was just stupid. Don't know. But, sitting here reading your story I see the red flags flying and I have to send out a warning whether you will listen or not. I would hate to see anyone make the same mistake I did. Sure, easier for you to get out if things go bad and start life over but why set yourself up? Why take such a risk? It's really not worth it. M is a commitment. Second marriage, well, I'm sure we both agree that you would do whatever it took to not be twice divorced.

Another thing is it's very obvious is that you aren't completely healthy and if you are to get married you should go into it with the least amount of baggage and being the healthiest you can be. It's quite clear that you don't handle stress well. You either ignore what you can do and just throw up your hands saying there is nothing that can be done or you turn yourself into a sniveling, shaking, starving, stressed, anxious wreck instead of dealing with your life head on.

There is a reason you married and stayed in a M with an alcoholic for so many years. There is alot of damage that is done that you likely don't even realize. One being dependance. You didn't leave, he left you. There is a reason you can't stand the thought of being alone. BEing alone for a time is not bad. It's actually healthy and in that time you would be able to become strong and learn to love yourself. You worth seems so dependant on who loves you, not from what is within yourself. There is a reason you feel that if you don't have THIS R then you will forever be alone and a reason you take yourself down a destructive path of self pity and worry. If you can't take control of that and your own life you cannot be a real wife or partner. You have to know who you are and love yourself before you have anything real to offer anyone else.

I wish you the best. You have some tough decisions to make and alot to think about. I hope you will make the right choices for the happiest and healthiest future. I hope you will not accept a proposal of circumstance but will wait for one that is real and undeniable.

Symphony

Well said Symphony!!!!

Thank you so much for sharing your story Symphony. Wonderful wisdom for all of us in there. Thank you thank you.

Good read Symphony!
and, very good wisdom shared!

Karona

Lordslady - really I dont' even know what to say... last week you were wondering if he was the one - he didn't anything to do with your daughter or have his kids have anything to do with your daughter... He didnt' think he could live without sex - and now you are contemplating marriage - Honestly I don't think you should worrying about paying for your therapy I think you find a way to double it up..... I mean symphony has some great points..... And you know I am not even sure this is the wrong guy for you.. but at this time - I think any guy is the wrong guy for you.. I think having a guy is a quick and easy fix but not a solution to your problems.... just a temporary fix.... Honestly - slow it down..........

Lordslady,

I registered to write to you first, though I'm guessing I'll be writing to others soon enough.

I've read this whole thread and some of your others also.

What you're doing to R is cruel. What he's doing to you is cruel. You're both being manipulative. You are using sex and he is using the "relationship".

I can't imagine why you would sleep in the same bed as this man. It's like taking a reformed gambler to a casino and telling him not to notice the bright lights, whistles and bells.

And it was just a test. Lots of testing going on for you, isn't there? He passed. This time. Congratulations, right? But what did he win? What did you win?

You've gotten so much good advice. Symphony's is excellent. Read it again. Then print it out. Read it again. Carry it with you. Read it again. In fact, print out this entire thread and sit down silently and read it. Look at your writings as if it were someone else. What do you see?

You need to be cautious, LL. You are in a very dangerous situation. You just can't see that. Sad.

Best, RC

Symphony,

I really do appreciate you taking the time to share your story. I do understand what you are saying, and I wanted to comment on a couple things:

I do understand your concerns for me, and the one thing I do need to know from "R" if this plays out is that he made his decision because he truly wants to marry me now and not because he feels forced into it. I don't want to "force" anyone into marriage. That's why I still feel like things are very unresolved for us.


There are two reasons I stayed with my husband. The first was that I truly loved him. I wanted the marriage with him; I just wanted it to be better than it was. The second was because I will never divorce someone unless they are habitually unfaithful to me...again, it's a biblical thing. And that is indeed what ended up breaking up the marriage, because he met the OW and turned his back and walked away. Yes, there were fears of being alone. But primarily it was a strong love for the man despite his flaws and a commitment to God to work for the marriage that kept me with him through all that.


See, my problem here is that this is how I feel about HIM. Even getting past the issues of my fears of being alone, I've tried imagining being with someone else and it just doesn't feel right. I feel right with him. I've felt right with him pretty much since the beginning. It just all got "un-right" when I took away the sex and things went all crazy.


Yes, I do.

LL

Maw,


I love my daughter dearly, but even *I* am hesitant introducing people to her. You don't know her. You've not met her. He has. She is not your normal teenager with a few issues.

I can't deny that she truly is a bad influence on others, and I don't blame him for wanting to protect his somewhat impressionable 12-yr-old son at this point. There is no burning reason that they have to meet each other right now other than his son is curious. But I have no idea how my daughter would react or what she might say, nor does he. She can be very cruel and very rude, or she can be really caring. Just depends on her mood. She will say whatever comes to her mind. So I have not at all pushed for our kids to meet.

As for therapy, I see my therapist tonight. I'm sure she'll have things to say.

LL

Well I wish you the best.. I mean truly if this is what you want - then I am happy for you and I hope it all works out.... It just seems to go from one extreme to the next... Good Luck..

LordsLady...I've given up trying to reason with you. You're still suffering lots of fallout from your marriage, yet you continue to try and seek out new relationships. Heal yourself first. Heal your relationship with your daughter--then (and ONLY then) should you begin to share yourself with another person. He won't make the problems go away--I can guarantee that.

I will tell you what I've told a few other people here at MB---when everything comes crashing down, we'll all still be here to listen to your tales of woe...You won't learn anything the easy way, so you may as well go ahead and learn the hard way.

I promise I won't say "I told you so"...I hope you prove me wrong.

LL, I understand your reasons for staying with your alcoholic XH because they're the same reason I stayed with mine. I also know no one comes out of an alcoholic relationship unscathed, which is why I (and others) have suggested Al-Anon.

Others have pointed out your stubbornness and you've acknowledged it yourself. An important part of our personal growth is finding the strengths within our weaknesses. I see you changing, becoming more open to suggestions and choosing to begin therapy and stick with it no matter what happens in your relationship. Now your "stubbornness" can carry you through this period of growth.

You've gotten lots of good advice, but you still need to live your own life, as we all do. Your current relationship offers an opportunity to work on your relationship issues since some of our issues can really only be worked through within a relationship. Meanwhile, you seem committed to continue working on your own issues in therapy and you say you're still open to considering Al-Anon. Let your "stubbornness" work for you!

RC,


I am not "using" sex. I made a decision (abstain) for a reason, and it had nothing to do with testing him. And I honestly think he's torn as to what to do. While I am very clear on how important the sex was to him, he has also stated on a number of occasions that he understands my reasons for taking it away and really can't even argue them. He just doesn't like them. So yes, it IS his decision as to if he wants a relationship or not. I made a decision; he then gets to make a decision. It's not like we disagreed on the color of a new sofa or something. This really is a big issue to deal with, especially to have it and then take it away abruptly due not to a mutual decision but to MY decision.


In a way, it was a test for both of us...can we continue to see each other without sex? But there really is nothing to win, that I see, except for the opportunity to continue to see each other.


Just for the record, I totally buy what you're saying here. Actually it goes beyond sleeping in the same bed. Just being alone for a period of hours with him is not a good thing, and yes I can see how it would be extremely tempting for him (and for me). I don't disagree with you on this item, and I feel it is one of the hurdles we must work through if we are going to continue. It seems strange for two 40-year-olds to only be able to date in public places (aka restaurants) when they're very serious about each other and possibly contemplating marriage. But obviously too much "alone time" is very bad for us.

LL

[color:"blue"] [/color] Amen, Symphony. LL, I accepted a direct proposal, but it was a proposal due to an unexpected pregnancy. My pregnancy. I doubt very much that my H would have proposed to me if it weren't for the baby. After all, he had lived with a woman for ten years without getting married. I should have backed out when I miscarried, but I didn't. That first year, when things started going bad almost right away, I started wondering if B. had really wanted to marry me, or did he feel trapped? He hated life with me until I began the doormat version of Plan A. Then, he was happy and I more miserable every day. We went from having a great sex life to having almost no sex life in less than a year.

I then look at my brother who propsed recently. He had drawings of a ring months before. He had the ring especially made for her, and finally propsed. All but went down on one knee.

LetSTry,

Thank you for understanding why I stayed. Most people don't. They see me as crazy for putting up with him, not realizing that A) I truly loved him and B) I took vows that I stand by no matter what. But yes, I'm sure it didn't exactly have a positive effect on me or the kids. I am aware that because he constantly blamed me for everything, I tend to blame myself and/or take responsibility for things that are not mine to 'own'.

I am also not an assertive person by nature...have always been rather shy and non-confrontational...and confronting an alcoholic is a scary thing, so I learned to stuff it quite frequently. That needs worked on.

Stubborn, yes I am...very much so. It can be good, but it can also be bad. It's what has kept me believing in my daughter when everyone (teachers, therapists, her father) have already lost faith in her and written her off.

But it also may keep me in situations that aren't the best for me, because I don't want to give up, even when conventional wisdom says I'm nuts. I'm not saying this is that kind of situation, though I will agree it's not the ideal setup.

LL

LL, I keep toying with the idea of giving up on posting to you, but I wanted to address this one comment of yours.

Yes, the past few weeks were a test of sorts, one that you and R failed miserably. It was your (plural) chance to see how well you two can work through difficult issues, and POJA. And what did you (plural) do during that time? He withdrew and left you hanging for weeks (or worse, as others said, he was simply cruel to you), and he LB'd all over the place with more than one horrifyingly nasty comments. And you, well, you kinda fell apart and became a total mess, unable to eat or sleep. Is this how you two plan to deal with future upcoming issues? The past few weeks do not bode well for your conflict resolution skills.

You don't see how awfully you two failed this "test", which is why you are excited about the non-proposal proposal, instead of running the other way. I maintain that your (plural) relationship skills were shown to be extremely lacking over the past few weeks.

If you think he is "the one", I wish you luck, but in all honesty, I agree with the others who expect to see this proposed marriage become a miserable one very quickly.

AGG

Greengables,

Just playing Devil's Advocate here for a sec:


Does this guarantee that their marriage will be happy and successful? How long have they been married?

My ex wrote up a cutesy little note, sat it by my engagement ring, and surprised me with the whole deal and DID go down on one knee and proposed. We dated for almost 4 years prior to getting engaged. We knew were going to get married. He had been talking about it forever. Did it make our marriage successful? Nope, he felt trapped just as soon as I got pregnant and stopped partying with him. That was less than a year into the marriage, when he started doing his own thing without me. His issue wasn't a lack of feelings for me or feeling pressured to propose. It was a lack of commitment to make things work once there were changes in our life.

Obviously I don't want to marry someone who feels pressured to make that decision. I need to know before anything happens that R truly does feel I am the right one to spend his life with. I don't deny that something sped up his decision. But as of right now, I'm not ready to attribute it simply to feeling pressured. What if being apart caused him to realize that he wants a future with me, and that he's ready to let his guard down and take a chance instead of being so overly cautious due to the burn from his two failed relationships?

I can't see inside his brain. I'm going to discuss all this with my therapist and see what her ideas are regarding finding out more about all of it.

At the moment, he does seem more calm and at ease since spilling the surprising statement on Sunday night than he's been for several weeks. I suppose that could all change, too, the next time we're together if he gets too frustrated. He may decide it's still not worth it. Or he may have a moment of clarity and say "What the heck was I thinking to suggest marriage? I'm not ready!" Who knows?

LL

For lack of time I had to stop but (((LL))) I want you to look at something, these are all your words from the last 6 weeks....... I challenge you to print this off, read it, heck show it to your counsellor and simply ask "Should I get married in 2006 to this man?"..... And again, it ain't all about him, the last two months has shown that you have serious issues to work through.... Anywho, please read these and PS.... I couldn't find the post about his sexual desires (I believe there was something about a 3-some and masterbation)....

LL's Own List of Red Flags to Ignore Today....



First, my faith, or a product of it, is something I definitely am struggling with right now.

After thinking I'd very much learned my lesson to never end up in bed with someone before I was married to them after that big mess with the guy I dated 5 times last summer, yes, I ended up there with him.

I am looking at incredible pain, because while he professes to be a Christian, I don't think he's going to stand for me throwing on the brakes to something that's been hot-and-heavy

I am honestly physically sick today.

When BF and I first met and we talked beliefs, I made it very clear that I wanted someone with shared beliefs and that it was very important that the Lord came first.

What is keeping me apart from God is shame. There is no pride to it. I am totally ashamed of what I'm doing, and I'm hiding.

if two people are in a serious relationship, he doesn't see it as the sin I do. He sees pre-marital sex as sin if it's just casual sex for the heck of it, or with a prostitute, etc.

I did tell him it was my goal to wait until I was married.

because I have totally tuned God out, I've stopped praying, and I've stopped reading the bible.

I barely slept last night. I'm sick beyond belief

I'm terrified of losing him

I'm in a mental mess right now. I can't even eat. I know in my brain that if we're unequally yoked, that's wrong.

He isn't ready to get married yet, or in a year for that matter

Where IS my faith?

Patience is a virtue I don't possess. It's killing me to not have some form of resolution now.

I'm shaking, I'm sick, I can barely function.

His Christian leadership isn't quite as strong as I'd hoped.

Like he said, if he'd have told ANYONE what was going on with me at that point, they'd all have told him to run away as fast as he could.

Second red flag is that he's figured out that about once every 3 weeks, I freak out about something and get it stuck in my head and it's hard to make it go away.

Well, he came...and he went. Yep, he's on his way back home, before any of my family starts arriving. Tense beyond belief.

I do see a few selfish tendencies in him.

My mental state--it's an issue right now--darned anxiety!

But, I need to work on owning MY spirituality. Have we prayed together ever? No. Have we read the bible together ever? No. Do we discuss our thoughts on certain biblical topics or issues? Not often anymore. Do we discuss our goals for growing spiritually? No. Have I seen us grow spiritually? No.

And it hurts to think that he may have had me over last weekend only for his own personal pleasure because he needed something to ease his frustrations over his paper.

Yes, I have a very real fear of being alone and celibate for the rest of my existence because of my stance on pre-marital sex and my stance on only dating someone who has divorced for biblical reasons.

I do believe my non-BF has some sex issues.

And yes, he did make a mention a few nights ago something to the effect of him equating good sex to a good relationship

The problem is that he is not willing to commit to dating me AT ALL without sex.

truly believe you guys are probably right--that this relationship shouldn't continue.

He has shown selfishness and things that are not Christian.

So last night I was a basket case.

I admit I see more and more signs that would make me think he's not the one God wants for me. I still lack the strength to end it.

Her theory from what little she knows so far about R is that she would be concerned about his beliefs because he doesn't seem to be bothered about doing it outside marriage. She feels that a true believer, while they can fall into sin for a time, would be conflicted about what they were doing. So she said I should be worried about becoming unequally yoked. She also told me I have not dated him long enough to be thinking about marriage yet.

LL...
I will repeat what I said a few times - that piece of paper won't solve problems itself, especially not those ones you think it would. Period.

I know that you want to get married no matter what, life or death for you, that's your goal, obsession even. So, I'll skip talking against that M, you won't give it up if he wants anyway.
But, what I could do is to tell you - work very hard on your insecurity, paralelly with your 'preparations' for M.
If you do not, you will always 'feel like things are very unresolved' for you two.

Imagine, you marry him.
If you don't get rid of that insecurity, with any even smallest issue you'd have (and no M without them), you'll get back to analyzing and questioning... wondering if you did forced him or not, and would he marry you if you continued with sex, i.e. is his desire for sex with you made decision to marry you but not his love for example.
Got it?



Many things here are strange to me, but this one the most, I think...
40 years old people with a such luck of self-control...
Something is so fishy here... too much.

Here we go. "As of right now". That will come later on, if/when married, if you don't change.
You want to bet?


Possible.
If you keep thinking that way when/if married, not so bad.
But, will you?
(Especially if you one day driving home listen to radio and hear someone talk about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />)

And, it'll come back to him. He'll reproach you for forcing (or "forcing", won't matter) him to marry you.
Hope I'm wrong.
Only time will tell.


Work, work, work on - yourself.



That's not my impression, not at all.
IMO, you gave up a long time ago, you let her do whatever she wanted, just that you didn't really have to deal with.
For you have had some other things to be occupied with... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />