Can I have an Amen...... And we all said AMEN..... Preach it Cinders........

“””I again threw out "how about late May or June?"”””

So pretty much against the advice of your therapist and preacher, you are already beginning to bend your boundary, September has become June and now June has become May. Soon May will become March and the train wreck can begin, while some may rush to see the carnage, I for one am growing weary. As a brother in Christ, I do love and care for all my brothers and sisters, I guess sometimes the most loving thing that we are allowed to do is to let a friend go to make the journey on their own and pray for them….

“””I still haven't concluded that he's just out-and-out the wrong guy for me and that I need to drop him (I know that goes totally against what most of you think).”””

I would imagine not, even with our list of however many red flags and the flags that get added by the hour, even with the advice of your preacher to wait, even with the advice of your therapist to wait, I would imagine it would take more than that to detour you.

“””I'm not sure how to bring it up, because I am the queen of "foot-in-mouth".”””

If you can’t bring it up then your communication skills as a couple are obviously lacking, but that’s already been proven over and over and over and over again, so again, nothing has changed.

“””I have a feeling if I suggest that he has to wait until say the very end of May, that he'll balk.”””

Why fool anyone, get married in March….. Heck, get married for Valentine’s Day. Don’t wait for him to ask, ask him.

“””I need to figure out a way to explain it such that he can see that it makes a lot more sense to deal with his "frustration" for 2-3 extra months than it does to jump into something that neither of us are totally prepared for.”””

LordsLady, unless prompted these may be my last words to you. Conservatively, I’d venture to guess that if you apply yourself, you have about a year of intense therapy to work through before you find mental health that will lead to happiness. Without that you will never find what you are looking for, it won’t be in any man or any God. As I’ve suggested from the beginning, that is step one before you take another step. It’s been shown over and over again all the red flags here, yet you have chosen to ignore them or at least not address them since I posted them, in fact the only thing you’ve done is add more flags to the equation. In the pits of my stomach, I do feel that this relationship is doomed and to continue in it will only bring doom upon yourself. ‘R’ has shown how he communicates and that just does not fit with your personality other than feeding your co-dependence, which in of itself is at an astonishingly unhealthy level. So unhealthy, that I truly believe you can’t see what he’s doing or hear what he is saying.

I do wish you the best and will continue to keep you and your family in my prayers. I’m going to slip back into the shadows and put a bandage on over where I’ve been beating my head against the wall.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

First off, LL, it's really no big kudos to R that he stuck around after he heard about the PG scare, your past and your daughter. He may have stayed around because you're a great catch or he may have stayed around because he wants someone who is insecure and vulnerable to another's control.

Second, why are you willing to waste your valuable time and energy convincing him it's worth waiting a month or two to get married, especially when he hasn't even proposed?

He hasn't proposed, yet you might get married in June. This doesn't make sense to me. You live far enough apart you can't see each other often, and you have a daughter who is rebeling. It will take a lot longer than 5 months to get all that in order for a marriage.

For the record, you don't have to be a virgin to become a nun, you just need to take a vow of chastity. No sex from here on out. And there are Episcopal and possibly Lutheran monastic orders as well as Roman Catholic and Orthodox orders. Just something to keep in mind.

Lordslady,

I've kept up on your story (even the pre-D days) and I'm going to tell you what I would tell my best friend or sister.

LL - do you want to be divorced again? If so, keep doing what you're doing. If not, then start doing things to avoid that.

First of all, you need to change your perspective. Your goal is not to get married again or just to be in a relationship with someone. Your goals are (I think) to create a great life for yourself, to be happy, to have a closer relationship with God, and, if God wants this for you, to find someone with whom you will take the time to build a great relationship/M. You can't have a great relationship/M until you are whole & complete & happy -- think joy, peace, patience and the other gifts of the Holy Spirit. Work towards those first goals and the rest will follow, in time, if they are supposed to follow. I'm not saying you can't continue to date this person or that you won't end up deciding that he is "the one", I'm just saying that you need other foundations to be in place and more time before you leap ahead. If you two are really meant to be, then it will happen, and it will happen without all this stress & doubt.

Second, take a step back and spend some time really thinking about what you want in life, in yourself, in a partner. Then make steady progress towards those goals. On the partner side, spend some time refreshing your memory on what it takes to have a great M - maybe read the Buyers/Renters book - and then look objectively at your current partner/relationship and ask yourself if this is really at that stage or if there isn't some work to be done. Try to approach the decision with a calm heart/mind and really analyze the situation. You should NOT be factoring in his "frustration" as a criteria for whether to marry him. Be wise about this choice. It is not easily undone and will cause you tremendous pain if you make a wrong decision. Take your time. Keep your focus on the real goals and keep your eyes open to reality.

Hope I'm helping somewhat.

LH,

Wasn't going to respond any more until tonight, but need to clarify this one:


I never said September, nor did my therapist (who is one of those "two year" people, I think, nor did my pastor, who didn't even say March was bad--he just wants to make sure we're spiritually right). That was a statement from someone on here. And when I'm going from June to May, I'm basically talking about the first week of June vs. maybe Memorial Day weekend. That's a one-week difference (I was just thinking of opportune times to be off work for more than a couple days, if it came to that). So I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that I had ever tossed out a September date, because I didn't. What I'm doing is trying to extend things from the last week in March which does make me very nervous to at least the last week in May or the first week or so in June which would give us both more time to talk, think, pray, and figure it out.

And darn it, try as I may to do something right, it's never right enough, it seems. You all said "slow it down". That's what I'm going to try to do. But now that's not enough. And as for why I didn't bring all that stuff up last night, most of it I didn't think of until after we had our conversation. Like I said, I listened mostly to HIM last night, I did less of the talking. But I got off the phone and thought through our conversation, and came up with what I want to propose to him.

LL

"(And yes, a lot of guys if they found out right before I met them for the first time that I was afraid I might be PG by someone else, and then they found out about my past, and then they found out about my daughter and her issues, and then I abruptly pulled sex out of the relationship...this all in the first 5 months..."

Wow.

I don't think that you are anywhere near being emotionally stable enough to even consider marriage at this time. Can't you two just date for a while . . . like a year or two? I know that you want this marriage to last. Boy it is starting under a pretty omnious sky.

If this guy wants to marry fast because he just wants to get some soon because he can't/won't control his desires, well, let's just say you two are probaly going to have issues.

Breathe in . . . breathe out. Stop analyzing everthing to death and just be for a while.


I think you need some calm and stibility and less of the whirlwind that your life has become.


CN

How exactly has he "stuck it out"? How have any of these matters cost him anything except for the sex bit? As it turns out, you weren't pregnant, so we'll never know how he might have responded if you had been. And your past is just that - your past; it makes no demands on him. Your daughter...well, she's your daughter, not his, and although she can apparently be a bit of a pain, it doesn't sound like she's had too much of an effect on him. Indeed, he's already asserted his intention to minimize such effects, since he wants his kids kept away from her. It wasn't until something came up that interfered with his desires that he had reason to react - and react he sure did! Even now, his only interest seems to be to get back what was taken away from him, and to do it in the most short-sightedly convenient manner possible.

You know, I'm really not impressed with the argument, which as I recall he has made more than once, that "this is the way men are; you just need to accept it and make allowances for it." That's a cop-out and a manipulative lie designed (consciously or not) to get both himself and you to buy into lower expectations and standards. Thus far I have seen nothing to believe that he either has or wants the character to rise to any occasion which would demand a significant sacrifice.

On the whole, this looks to me like a fairly sensible (albeit preliminary) plan. You seem to be establishing what is important for you, and then figuring out practical ways in which those priorities can be reflected in your relationship. That's a bit different!

Isn't it amazing how much more peace one has when one begins trying to eliminate dissonance from one's life? Your actions and your stated beliefs have not aligned at all well, but perhaps now you're finally beginning to imagine what your life might be like if they did.

Um...no. You do not need to figure out a way "to explain it such that he can see" things in a way which will cause him to do what you want him to do and become who you want him to become and set his priorities according to how you wish they were set. All you need do is explain things such that he will understand where you are coming from. All you can do is assert your own boundaries. It is his responsibility to set his priorities and make his choices regarding how to respond.

He is not the man you want him to be, any more than you are the woman you wish to be. But if you work hard to become the woman you wish to be, and begin making choices consistent with that intention, he will either see that you are not so pliable as he is used to, and will dislike and resist the change, or he will recognize that you are becoming a better person and perhaps be inspired to develop his own character too.

These are the kind of dynamics which will clarify the future potential for your relationship, and they will are not the kind of dynamics for which you can reasonably expect results in just a few months. Unless of course he gets frustrated early and bails, which would certainly tell you all you should need to know about his character.

Well said, Gnome.

Well, thanks for the slap in the face to the 20-some people who are busting their butts trying to give you useful advice for your life... Not like any of us have vested interest in this, we are just trying to help.

Anyway, I am taking my toys and leaving this thread, but I will leave you with some food for thought:

http://joy2meu.com/codependent3.htm

You probably will say that this does not apply to you, but I was actually expecting to see your picture in those descriptions.

AGG

Thank you for that link, AGG! Good stuff! Why have you been holding out on me?

It is great stuff... I hesitated to post it, because they actually specifically disagree with Harley's positive view of codependency (see "The codependency movement is NOT ruining marriages" towards the bottom here: http://joy2meu.com/Codependence1.html ).

But I think codependency is very unhealthy...


What do you mean?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

AGG

That you haven't posted it before, and I need it!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

There are 16 pages of good advice w/ everyone saying the same thing, and LL continuing to defend and rationalize and waffle and freak out, ad nauseum.....

Sorry to be harsh, but LL, when you said you were stubborn, you weren't kidding.

But, it's your life, your choices, good or bad and your path to follow, good or bad.

Good luck LL

If you are afraid to bring things up to him now and your not even married how will you be able to bring things up if you do marry this man?

Open and honest Communication needs to start BEFORE you marry someone, lest they end up feeling there has been a 'bait and switch' done on them.

CN,


I couldn't agree more with that.

GDP,
You're right in that he hasn't had to really "suffer" from any of my red flags. The one about my past, though, coupled with how I handled that PG scare have been difficult for him and we have discussed them a few additiona times, because of the fact that his wife left him for someone else, and his other long-term girlfriend, he found out, had a guy on the side for most of their time together. He wanted to be sure I am who I said I am in that respect, and it's something that only time really proves.

I appreciate you taking the time to post. I think you are one of the people on here who most closely understands my spiritual beliefs.

I don't disagree with your post. It would probably be good for me to get up each morning and repeat the following to myself:

and this...

I think my biggest challenge is to get to that point where I realize that I have got to put this thing in God's hands and trust that if lay out my needs and he refuses to consider them, that he can't possibly be who God wants for me.

But I also need to somehow quit trying to predict the future. It's caused huge issues because I've assumed things over the last six weeks about what his thoughts or intentions were that actually didn't end up being the case (i.e., times he didn't call me right away or that weekend when I assumed he just saw me to relieve tension). And then I've come on here and posted in my pessimistic state, and it just makes everything twice as bad.

AGG,

Please go back to GDP's comment about that "gloating" statement. It was more of a sarcastic remark than anything else. If you guys didn't care, you wouldn't be taking the time to post.

DW,


No need to be sorry. No, I wasn't kidding. I was dead serious.


Okay, I thought people were saying I need to get myself straightened out (I admit I have issues with insecurity AND with being who God wants me to be) and I thought most people were saying to slow things down. Granted, what I'm going to propose isn't slowing a lot, but it is a date that would make me more comfortable.

Now are you saying that the ONLY answer is to just end it? Do you see why I get confused or frustrated? I'm trying to take my stubborn little mind and inject a little of the reason from here into the emotions I'm working with, but each time I think I'm sort of getting it, something shifts on here. And then I'm balancing this from what I hear from my pastor, and a few people here at work.

(And just for the record, there is an earlier thread of mine on here from where I first made the no-sex decision, where two people actually suggested that we could marry sooner and do a distance marriage.)

I have contemplated taking a break from here and trying to work through it because I also get frustrated. But just like you guys keep posting because you're trying to help, I keep coming back because I know you're trying to help.

LL

TR,


This is something I am trying to work harder at. I am a rather shy, non-confrontational person in general. It's a boundaries thing, too--and I'll admit also I'm sure isn't helped by my lack of strong self-esteem. I am trying to be more assertive, but it doesn't always come easily. Some people are naturally more assertive than others.

And interestingly enough, "R" has gotten more frustrated with my tip-toeing around trying to tell him something sometimes than he has been with the actual thing I'm trying to tell him.

Yes, another thing to work on in therapy, but one that is difficult to cure without just practicing it and getting better.

LL

Anyone have some Dramamine I can take?? I'm getting motion sickness from this Drama Roller Coaster we are subject to.


March, June, September...does it really matter?? They are all WRONG months for this situation.



Maybe cuz it hits too close to home????????

Alluring,

I know you mean well and I will try and believe you have my best interests at heart, but it's hard to listen to to someone who tells me that it doesn't matter what month I might pick, it's just simply WRONG, when I read a post from here on 12/23 that to me also borders on crazy, but she didn't see it a such:


further down...


Yes, to me to have deep feelings for someone within 15 days, and someone you haven't even met...that seems a little on the crazy side. But given the mess I seem to have gotten myself into, I didn't feel qualified to comment on that one. And honestly I haven't had much chance to keep up on threads, so hopefully it all worked out for the best.

As for the word "DRAMA", it's just the word itself that bothers me. Call it an emotional roller coaster, call it obsessing, call it insanity... For whatever reason, the word "drama" bugs me.

LL

Well at least I'm not freaking out and obsessing like you are...I take things as they are meant to come. I've learned not to force things that aren't meant to be. God has a timeline for my life already planned out. I don't try to push the limits. What's meant to happen for me...will...and what's not...won't. Doesn't get much more simplier than that.

My concerns are my new job, my bills and most importantly my kids that I was chosen to have. I can live with or without a man. I don't need to marry one to be complete. Would it be nice...****** yeah...but IF I get married again it will be for life and not just to have sin-less sex. I don't believe I'll touch one toe in ****** just because I am a grown woman and I choose to have sex outside of marriage. To each their own.

UGH! I'm talking to the wall and I refuse to get caught up in this crap again.

Enjoy!

Well, I for one am not saying that. In all honesty, I think that would be a good answer, but I am not at all prepared to say that it is the only answer. If you can manage to do the whole grow-as-your-own-person thing at the same time as you slowly build your relationship, then who can say where it might lead? That won't be easy, though, especially since it doesn't seem likely that you'll get a lot of help from R.

As matters stand now, you really don't know how R would react to a lordslady-as-she-is-meant-to-be. For all you know, he is attracted to the weak-and-needy lordslady and a strong-and-self-sufficient lordslady would intimidate him. (And perhaps I'd better point out here that this isn't something you can ask him about, since even if he could be honest about it with himself, it is not at all clear that he would be honest with you about it.) This is something that would need to be tested, and you're not in any position to do it right now, because frankly, you're sort of a mess. That's not a slam, because God knows I've been there myself. It is simply a fact that healing takes time and work.

I think it would be a real shame if you married R only to outgrow him and watch him develop into a resentful and resistant source of grief.

I also think it would be a real shame if you married R only to have him succeed in preventing you from growing.

These are not inevitable outcomes. But avoiding them is going to be very difficult, especially since as you yourself have lamented you have little in the way of a support network right now.