Surprise, she swore that she isn't talking to him. She said I was crazy and wanted to know "how I know for sure". I didn't tell her. I just said that I know for sure. She said that it was unfortunate that I believe that. I told her that I did call the attorney and told him to go ahead and file the papers.

I've listened to the recording several times. I don't think she could be talking to or about another person. Her denials do make me doubt myself, but I have to stay strong this time.

I told her that I would be willing to consider staying in the marriage, but that there would have to be some major changes.

Oh well, the balls in her court now. I feel very bad about doing this right before Christmas, but I've asked her not to keep things from me or lie, I don't feel I should do anything different for her.

I just had a scary thought. What if I'm wrong and she was talking about another person with the same name??

Trust your gut on what you heard.

Didn't she say that you couldn't keep her from seeing him?

My H denied even when presented with proof. He tried to make me think I was crazy too...it almost drove me crazy too.

Grove...

Why would you consider giving someone who has betrayed you in the most hideous of ways the benefit of any doubt? You need to keep asking yourself that. That was what I did...You know the truth and so does she....don't second guess what you know is true....

if it smells like it might be crap.....it is....

This is par for the course. She has been caught and is telling lies.

I got the hotel bills of my WH and OW. He denied and lied. He said I was crazy, and that I was ruining the marriage. I finally caught them in bed together. He still wouldn't admit anything.

Stick to your guns or you are toast. She needs to know that she can't lie her way out of her poor choices.

I don't think you were wrong with what you heard, however what you heard may not be the whole truth here.... not likely unfortunately but still good to know if it was.
It is up to her to decide what to do - tell you if she was spouting off to a GF or in fact planning to go ahead regardless.

No matter what, it is your choice grove

just keep reminding her..truth, non contact even if it means leaving the job, and commitment to working on M.

All the best

AW

Here's a little more context on what I heard.

She was in the car with her friend. Her friend said that the OM said that WW wasn't going out tonight. My wife said that she saw him as she was leaving the restroom and he asked if she had permission to go tonight. She said that she didn't need permission and he said he didn't need permission either. There was some other stuff about talking to him and another co-worker. But that was most of it.

That doesn't sound like no contact at work to me.

Any contact is contact.
A note from Mr. Obvious (AKA Fluke)

Any contact increases the chances that the A will continue.

Any contact keeps the WS from moving forward.

It's simple. She needs to NEVER see or communicate or hear about the OM ever again. Every day she works there is a huge risk.

Praying for you bud.

Just so you know ---- My W denied everything too. I knew she was having an A but she would just deny it. I had evidence but never told her what I had.

Since I decided it was too late for us I just gathered a lot of evidence and she would lie to my face. It was hard sometimes not showing her but I wanted to really blow her mind when I presented it to her.

Well when I told her I wanted her out she asked why? I said because I know what you have been doing and I want you gone and she still denied everything. I then showed her emails told her I had recordings and I even showed her some of the video of her with the OM in my own house. I knew they were going to be together because I travel a week a month and they would set up stuff in emails.

You know the truth why should you feel guilty? Your wife cheated on you and you need to ask yourself why you put up with it? None of us can make her stop. It is up to her and she can just turn it around on you or cry and boom you feel guilty.

My wife never treated me well so I never wanted to stay married to her. I could never forgive the cheating and I admire spouses that can overcome all of that.

I respect you for wanting to fogive her but she is not respecting you at all. To be honest what is the point in having a spouse that treats a stranger better than the person they made vows with??

Grove -- there is a pattern here. There is something you are just not getting.

You do something like tell WW she is hurting you, or you ask her to stop seeing OM, or you ask her to recommit to the marriage. Then, when she lies and gets nasty and belligerent and walks out, you are shocked -- SHOCKED -- that she could behave this way.

Then you throw your hands up in the air, say "I give up" and roll over like a whipped puppy.

You must understand that you are NOT dealing with your WIFE anymore. A *wife* (or husband) is honest and committed and does not want to hurt you. You can reason with them and they will respond appropriately.

You must understand that your WIFE is GONE. You are dealing with a WAYWARD SPOUSE now.

A WS will lie, lie and lie some more.

A WS has no committment to the marriage and the family.

A WS doesn't give a rat's butt if they hurt you in the worst possible way. You could lay down and die right in front of a WS and they would just step over you on their way to meet the OP.

Sound familiar?

That's why the things you are doing get no results. You are still expecting to deal with your Wife and you are still expecting her to respond like a Wife. But I cannot emphasize enough that this is NOT your Wife you are dealing with. It's a total stranger that just *looks* like your Wife. It is a WS. It is NOT your Wife.

If you hope to have any success here, you have GOT to understand this and you must change your tactics. First and foremost, you must stop being afraid of her anger. She has total control as long as you are scared to stand up to her and stop taking her WS bullcr*p.

Here is a reprint of what I posted to you yesterday. As far as I am concerned, it still stands:

*******************
You are terrified to death that she will leave and she knows it. That's why she's got carte blanche to run roughshod over you. She knows you will take anything she dishes out -- and you have -- if only she won't leave.

Unless and until you can get to the point where she threatens to leave and you simply hand her the car keys and offer to pack her stuff for her -- and do this KNOWING you and your daughter will make it okay -- your WW will feel free to treat you just as badly as she wants and never doubt that you will put up with it.

This is what I mean by fighting for your marriage. You are not willing or able to do that now and that is why you are on the brink of losing it all. As long as you remain scared to death of your wife's anger and threats -- and don't tell us you're not! -- you have no hope at all of saving your marriage because there's no marriage to save.

You can't control her. That is true.

But -- you CAN control you.

You CAN stop being a frightened doormat (am I makin' ya angry yet?)

You CAN tell your WW that you have no interest in being "married" to OM's girlfriend.

You CAN tell her that you miss your WIFE very much and you wish your WIFE would come home.

You CAN refuse to go out with her and you CAN refuse to meet her emotional needs in-house. Why? Because you only do these things for your WIFE -- not for a single girl and/or OM's girlfriend.

You've got to keep it up like a mantra on a broken record -- "I am waiting for my WIFE to come home. I miss my WIFE very much."

***I think that was partly the reason SH didn't suggest that I go to plan b. I don't know that for sure though.***

I'm suspecting now it's because SH knows you would never be able to go through with Plan B -- not in the timid-doormat state you're in now.

You cannot do an effective Plan B when you are scared to death that WS will leave. It will only make things worse, and Harley knows that.

Grove -- STOP LETTING HER SCARE YOU

IF YOU DO STAND UP TO HER AND REFUSE TO LET HER BE A PART-TIME WIFE TO YOU, SHE WILL GET ROARING ANGRY LIKE YOU'VE NEVER SEEN.

THE ONLY CURE IS FOR YOU TO "MAN UP", AS THEY SAY AROUND HERE, AND STOP LETTING HER SCARE YOU.

WOMEN HAVE NO RESPECT FOR MEN THEY CAN WALK OVER AND WIPE THEIR FEET ON.

WOMEN HAVE NO RESPECT FOR MEN WHO REFUSE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR OWN FAMILIES.

THAT'S WHY YOUR WW HAS NO RESPECT FOR YOU.

If you haven't already, read "dazedandconfused's" thread on this page. Just yesterday, he was awarded temporary custody of his young daughter and will most likely get permanent custody at the next hearing.

You've got to take a risk here if you hope to win anything. Cowering at WW's feet and hoping to appease her will get you NOTHING except the life a single guy in a small apartment while WW and her boyfriend raise your daughter.

GET A LITTLE RIGHTEOUS ANGER AND FIND THE STRENGTH TO FIGHT FOR YOUR FAMILY!
Mulan

I have finally made my stand. Yes I have doubts and fears, but I have made my stand. I will not back down again.

My wife is scrambling trying to find out how I found out. I checked her cell records on line and she called her co-worker (female) immediately after we got off the phone.

I think she is looking for validation. Obviously he's (me) snooping again. I also would guess that she will have her friend call the OM to see if his girlfriend has talked to me.

Holding steady. If this leads to divorce, than that I have to believe that is what needed to happen. My wife is no longer a wife. I do get that Mulan, I just was hoping this was temporary.

Grove-


That's yet to be seen.

You can't continue to be a doormat. You see that now. Next step - start reading on the MB principles. Start developing a plan to A. Save your marriage or B. Cut and run. With the doormat out of the equation these are the only two choices you're left with.

-Fluke

I have a question about exposing to OM's live-in girlfriend again.

I exposed or talked to her at the beginning of the summer and told her what I knew was going on and that they had sat alone together at an after-work social.

She never told me much about what he told her was going on, but that's really not the point.

So, what do I tell her?? I don't really have much and what I do have would expose how I got the info. I guess I could just say, I thought you should know, that your "boyfriend" and my wife are still seeing and talking to each other. From the information I have, they were planning on meeting after work last night, but I do not believe that they actually did. I thought you had a right to know this. From there I'll let her lead the conversation.

Grove...

Let's be objective here.....wouldn't you want the OMGF to tell you if she knew?

Tell me the question again??

Stop thinking that it's going to get any better....expose them for what they are...

Ok, I've screwed this up so badly this past year, I thought I would seek advice before I do anything.

I will s/w OM's girlfriend after Christmas. I want to take care of things at home first. They are on break (teachers), so there is no rush to expose.

I'm at work now, I told my wife I knew about the contact by phone.

How should I handle this when I get home. My thought was that I would not even bring it up. I've told her I know, I've told her what I plan to do because of her continued contact, so what else is there for me to do?

Tell her that you are no longer interested in having a wife who has a boyfriend.

Make this your hill to die on. She will want to deflect blame and ask how you found out. Let her know calmly that you will no longer discuss how you found out.

I'm just concerned that I'm making this worse than it really is.

OK, that's the kind of thinking that has kept me in this position. I have to get out of that way of thinking and stay strong!

Whew, I'm glad I reread what I was saying. NO CONTACT, NO MORE LIES!

You want guarantees? You should know that there are no guarantees in life. You do what is best based on the empirical evidence and you leave the rest to God and any left over shred of reason inside your foggy WW's head. You are not alone.

TMCM

***I'm just concerned that I'm making this worse than it really is.***

Her getting angry over being caught and confronted does NOT make things worse. It makes them unpleasant, but it does NOT make them worse. Big difference!

Sometimes things have to get tougher before they can better. It's all part of the process. Trying to avoid the unpleasantness only prolongs the agony, covers up the infected wound and allows the poison to fester. Sometimes ya gotta rip that bandage off and let the sunlight and air clean things out. It will hurt at first, but it will never, ever heal if you don't.

Don't die from poison because you fear the temporary pain of ripping off the bandage.

***OK, that's the kind of thinking that has kept me in this position. I have to get out of that way of thinking and stay strong!***

Exactly!
Mulan

I know Mulan, I know. I think I've finally gotten it through my thick skull that she's not going to change if she doesn't have to, and even then she may choose not to.

I will stay strong and I will get through this. I think I have my head on straight.

Do you think I should bring this up, or wait for her??