I sure hope someone who knows my story is here today, cause I feel like I'm falling apart!

The question of the day is: How can you love someone you don't respect?

We were doing so well. The way my H handled D-day, and has handled just about every day since, has been nothing short of amazing. He has been sooooo good to me. If we could just live in a bubble -- the two of us and our children -- we might have a better chance of making this work. But last night, two of the top reasons why I no longer feel love for him (or maybe never did) came crashing back to the surface, and I'm having a hard time dealing with it.

They are, in a nutshell:
1) He refuses to go out of his way to help others.
2) When faced with a conflict, he doesn't stand up and act "like a man".

In other words, I do not respect the way he interacts with other people.

Here's what happened. Yesterday afternoon, a friend called to ask if she could drop her son off at our house for a couple of hours in the evening while she and her husband ran out to do some last minute Christmas shopping. I said 'sure'. When my husband got home from work, he was annoyed. The little boy was no problem, played great with out kids, and was only here for a couple of hours. His parents are wonderful, generous people. In fact, just recently, they took care of our kids for a couple of hours one evening so we could go to a MC session! When I reminded my dear hubby of this, he was somewhat placated. But in some ways, that bothered me even more. Friends shouldn't have to "keep score" that way!!!

This was a relatively minor incident. But I am not exaggerating when I say that it's a consistant pattern with him. He will NOT help out a friend UNLESS (a) there's something in it for him, or (b) he feels as though he "owes" them. I gotta tell ya, every time it comes up, which is fairly often, it just about empties my ol' love bank.


So, then there's the issue of how he deals with conflict. First, a quick example from the past. We live in a neighborhood where the average house lot is 1/2 acre -- lots of neighbors, pretty close quarters. Most of them very nice and friendly. We've had a few minor issues with some of them -- barking dogs, paint balls coming into our backyard where our children play (those things can be dangrous), and the guy across the street who was plowing snow over into our yard. I delt with the paintball and snow plowing issues by calmly and respecfully bringing them to the attention of the offending neighbors. They were apologetic and rectified the problems immediately. We're all still friends. My husband handled the barking dog situation -- BY WRITING AN ANONYMOUS LETTER! The barking has stopped, but I can no longer look these people in the eye. I think you get the idea.

So here's the latest incident. My husband has been friends with a guy I'll call "Dave" for about 20 years. Dave has done quite a few things over the years to tick my H off -- mostly obnoxious public displays when he's drunk. Many times, my husband has stated that he's "had it" with Dave and wants nothing more to do with him... but for whatever reason, they're still budies. Eight or nine years ago, Dave moved about 150 miles away and got married to a woman I'll call Sue. I liked Sue. My H never did. She's outgoing and fun, generous with money and gifts, and can be supportive and insightful. However, if you do anything to make her mad, she gets petty and hateful. I have now been on the receiving end of her darker side three times within the last 18 months. The stories are long and complicated and the details don't really matter. Suffice it to say -- The first time, I ignored her petty remarks, took the blame and apologized. The second time, I stood up for myself without stooping to her level of 'hitting below the belt', she apologized and asked that we forget the whole thing. This time, I completely ignored her and she finally sent an email stating that she no longer considers me a friend.

Through all of this, my H has stayed out of the fray, which is fine. I'm a big girl. And I didn't want to drag him into the middle of it. But this last time, after Sue sent me a series of hateful emails, my H came to my defense. He sent her the folowing email: "Sue, please stop sending nasty emails. We are going through a very difficult time right now, and this is not helping. We need to be left alone for awhile. I hope you can respect this." Respectful, and to the point. (BTW, Sue and Dave know my H and I are in MC, so they knew what was meant by "difficult time.") When my H told me the next day what he had done, my eyes fillled with tears, I thanked him, and I told him how touched I was. However, Dave and Sue's response was not to respect his request, but send another series of emails, throwing a few mor daggars my way and suggesting that my H was lashing out at Sue for no reason -- UNBELIEVABLE!

So, my H and I talked about how we would handle any further contact from them, and he said, as far as he was concerned, we should have cut ties with them long ago and he doesn't want anything more to do with them. Then, last night, Dave calls to wish my H a Merry Christmas, suggest a get-together after the holidays, and say that he and Sue are mailing Christmas Gifts for our Children (WTF????!!!). AND MY H WAS ALL CHUMMY WITH HIM, SAYING "YEAH, CALL ME. WE'LL GET TOGETHER." Afterward, my H says: "It caught me off guard. It's not in my nature to be rude. I was just trying to appease him to get him off the phone."

What I said was "Look. You've got to figure out where you stand, and then take a stand. If you want to continue to be friends with/do things with Dave, I support that. You guys have been friends for a long time. But here's where I stand. I've taken all I can take from Sue. I will not open myself up to any more of her nonsense because it's too upsetting for me. I also will not allow someone who is openly hostile to me to have anything to do with my children. That includes gifts. If they send gifts, I will send them back." My H had to go to the office for awhile this morning, and said he might try to call Dave from there and tell him not to send the gifts. He said he also wants to explain a few things to Dave about the incidents that caused all the problems. Who knows whether he'll follow through. Or whether he'll give me an accurate account of the conversation (He tried to delete the last series of emails from them before I saw them, and not tell me about the mean things they said about me, but I went and found them in the email trash.)

I don't expect my H to cut ties with Dave if he doesn't want to. But I do expect him to stand by my side with regard to the issues between me and Sue. Not only because he's my husband, but because he truely believes that I'm in the right. If he does, he'll be my hero. If not, it'll go down as just the latest example where he let someone walk all over him (and me) because he dosn't have the guts to take a stand.

I have been trying so hard to love-the-verb my husband. My goal is to also have loving feelings for him. What I really want, is to fall madly in love with him and have an intimate and passionate relationship with him. But how can I if I don't respect him? And how can I respect someone who won't lift a finger to help good friends, but at the same time, doesn't have the balls to stand up to people who are jerks!!!????


--SC

I read your previous threads to get some background on you, and based what I read, you seem to be that unsatiable type, who will find fault in everything he does. The guy took you back after you sowed your oats with OM, been "Amazing" to you in your own words, and yet you nitpick because he's not your Mr. Perfect. Take the good with the bad, its called marriage...

Hanzo,

Where does it say that a FWW can never again be upset with the actions of her BH? I really don't think I'm "nitpicking" here. If I were complaining that I don't like the way he cleans the house, or that he chews with his mouth open, or something like that, I would expect the kind of terse 2x4 you just gave me. But I'm talking about the way he deals people in general. The examples I gave were not isolated incidents. These are patterns that happen over and over again. Especially the thing about not helping people.

Are you suggesting that as long as he treats me well, it doesn't matter how he treats others?

IMO, refusing to help out friends and refusing to stand up for yourself and your family are serious issues. Yes, I obviously have my own character flaws -- I had an affair for heavens sake! But does that mean I have no right to ever again be disappointed in my H?

What in my previous threads made you conclude that I'm "that unsatiable type, who will find fault in everything he does."? I'm not just being defensive here, I really want to know.

--SC

Is this his nature or has he recently changed? Did he help friends in the past, etc? Has he always been like this?

Susan

Personally I think these are the kind of problems you need to discuss in front of your MC so he can act as a mediator. You may be justified in your feelings, but you may be wrong in your thinking you can fix it or it can fix itself. Your H is who he is. I think Susan's questions need to be answered. Has he always been this way? You can't change someone's personality.

Also, I have to say that you as the person who had an affair seem to be causing a lot of conflict. You don't sound too remoresful and you certainly don't sound like you are trying too hard to rectify your huge mistake. You sound like you want your H to do all the work in this recovery and you sit back and point out his flaws to him. Well, I hate to sound harsh here, but YOU are the one who made the mistake and YOU are lucky your H took you back and is trying at least a little bit to save your marriage.

Time to put your love bank aside for a while and try to fill up your husbands, he deserves it.

JMO of course!!!

Smartcookie -

I have been in your place - I had a brief affair 4 years ago but came to realize that my DH was the love of my life - no matter what his issues are. We have not had a "wonderful" relationship for many years - if ever. And now I stand on the other side of things with him - he has had an EA going back a few years and just moved out 3 weeks ago.

I too have cried out for respect and support. But I see now that you have to give it in order to recieve it. It sounds like your DH is trying - but he's probably still reeling inside from everything. Respect him for standing up for you with his friend, that took courage and does deserve respect. We don't always do things perfectly the first time we step out and try something. Your DH is learning and trying. There comes a time where you need to look at him with a thankful heart. He still cares for you, he is working on your marraige, he is supporting you and trying to earn your respect.

AS for the babysitting. Think a minute - is it possible his resentment was not at watching someone else's child but in not being considered in the decision. It's possible he had wnated to do something with you or your family and the other child and your commitment to watch him "crashed" his plans. Sometimes - when a person needs something dearly - it is hard for them to reach out and help others.

And a word of caution - the past is the past - we can not change it, we should not use it as an instrument of hurt and justification. In order to build a future, we MUST leave the past in our behind!! I don't mean forgive and forget, but do practice forgiveness daily and leave the past where it belongs.

Jan

Susan & Lost -- I guess he's always been that way. But do you really think it's impossible to change that sort of thing? I'm constantly being told around here about all the things I need to change -- core ways that I deal with things. Why the double standard?

Lost -- I can see how you'd get the impression from this post that I'm not working very hard. But I really am. In my last thread I listed some of the ways I'm trying to make up for my betrayal and rebuild my marriage (fill his love bank, meet his EN's, etc). And I am remourseful. I am ashamed of myself. The realization of what I've done hits me in waves. I have told him many times how sorry I am, and I work every day to show him how sorry I am.

Jan -- I'm so sorry for your situation. (((Jan))). Thank you for the perspective. You're right about the need to step back. He IS trying hard. I AM grateful to him. I think you're also right that there was an element of being blindsided in the babysitting incident. And I told him I was sorry about that. It wasn't that particular incident that was upsetting to me, though. It was the feeling of, "Here we go again, God forbid we do anything to help someone out if there's not anything in it for us."

I feel like I'm getting the message that this is just something I'm going to have to learn to live with -- And becuase I had an affair, I shouldn't even have the audacity to let it bother me. That doesn't make sense to me. I want to love and respect my husband, and this is an issue that's getting in the way of that.

The point I was TRYING to make is that one of the underlying problems in our marriage pre-affair is that we never seemed to see eye-to-eye on anything. A recurring theme was -- any time I wanted to do a favor for anyone or something for charity or whatever, it turned into an arguement. And it made me lose a lot of respect for him. I don't know. Maybe it's too soon after the affair to be looking at this particular issue. But sooner or later, if we're going to try to build the kind of marriage we BOTH want, I think we're going to have to address it.

BTW, one of the destructive things I tend to do is bury my frustrations and keep my complaints to myself. (Our MC calls me "an evaporator") I'm trying to learn not to do that.. hence my post asking for suggestions on constructive ways to deal with this.


--SC

P.S., H called me from work and told he he decided not to call "Dave" today because he knows it will turn into a big conflict/drama and he doesn't want it to ruin the holiday, but that he'll deal with it next week. I respect his decision and told him I support it 100%. Also thanked him for keeping a cool head about it all. We then had a nice, playful conversation about other Christmassy stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I think Jan has something there. a big thing for me throughout our marriage was the fact that my wife would always make plans with her family without consulting me & she lets them dictate the date & time etc even if its not convenient for us/her. 95% of the time what she arranges with them is OK, it would just be nice to be part of the decision. My WW always feel like an outsider in my own family when she did things like this.


Cliff

SC,

If you're as smart as your name implies.....how come you don't realize how this post comes accross chere? It's not about you being a wayward spouse....it's about the tone, criticism, and disrespect of this post. You aren't being penalized because you had an affair....anyone who posted like this would get the same responses from most folks....cross my heart.



The short answer is: You can't.

The long answer is that the disrespect is coming from you....not him. You are making alot of disrespectful judgements about your husband. You are assigning motives and intent behind his actions....and I suggest to you that they are not HIS motives or his feelings....nor his intentions. For instance....when he came home from work tired from supporting his family and saw another child there at a time when he'd prefer to wind down quietly with just his own family....you interpret this (judgementally) as he doesn't want to help your friends. You interpret the fact that he didn't just reject the buddy who called as being "less" than a MAN and not being able to stand up for himself.


When you say he doesn't "act like a man" OMG I just cringe....that's so immasculating *eek*. How does a "real" man act exactly? Being a man is the essence of who he is....and your criticism of that....cuts the very core of self and character. There's nothing wrong with seeking changes for annoying habits....but when you simply don't like "who" someone is....yikes. Annoying habits are BIG love busters....and I have no doubt that some of these things contributed to the vulnerability of your marriage.

The real man that is having trouble holding a grudge with his old friend....has the same forgiving heart that forgave you. He sounds like a quite a man to me.

Aren't you keeping score in your marriage?

You seriously need to read and study Starfish's post ...

If your husband does 1000 small things correctly (AKA Smartcookie's way) .... and he also does one HUGE thing like a *man for all seasons* (taking back an adulterous wife) .... but he does 2 or 3 smallish things not-to-your-liking .... are all his prior virtues suddenly erased?

Would YOU want to be graded this way on your performance as a wife this past 12 months?

starfish, well said.

Cliff

We offer YOU advice and suggestions about YOUR behavior because we are talking to YOU.

If your H posted here we would do the same for him regarding HIS behavior.

Understand?

There is not a double standard ... there is opportunity for you right now to examin your double standard .... show your husband this thread .... let him see what you wrote about him.... can you do that?

Star,

Point well taken about my disrespectful choice of words. I stand repremanded (sp?).

I realize my post was long and possibly hard to follow. To clarify, his not wanting to help people -- be it good friends or those less fortunate than us -- is a pattern. I made some mistakes in this instance. I should have consulted him before saying 'yes', or at the very least given him a 'heads up' before he came home. But the point is, this is not an isolated incident. If I'm assuming motives and intents on his part -- it's based on past experience. When I do consult him about doing a favor ahead of time, I almost always get an arguement. Yes, I interpreted his irritation about the babysitting as not wanting to help our friends -- because he NEVER wants to help our friends. (By the way, I worked at my job from 3:00-10:00 a.m. that day and spent the rest of the morning and afternoon taking care of our two young children, so I'd had a long day too)

As for the friend thing, I don't expect him to hold a grudge against his friend. In fact, when he's been at the end of his rope with this particular friend in the past, I've been the one to ask my H to calm down and remember that Dave has a good heart even though he acts like a jerk sometimes.

After the latest blowout, I told my H that I had come to the end of my rope with Sue, and suggested that he should decide where he stands before they tried to contact us again. I told him that I didn't want to get in the way of his friendship with Dave, and that it would not be a problem with me at all if the friendship continued. In other words, I set my boundaries and told him I would support whatever he decided he wanted to do. It was MY HUSBAND who said he was tired of both of their shenanigans and wanted to break ties with them. THAT'S WHAT HE SAID HE WANTED TO DO. But then when Dave called -- he didn't do it.

I don't want him to fight my battles for me. I don't want him to lose a friendship because "the wives can't get along." But I am upset that he says he's going to do one thing, then does another.

--SC

The forum is offering you advice - at your request - to help you ultimately improve the quality of YOUR life.

In expecting your H to change, you are offering advice - without any request from him - to help you improve YOUR immediate comfort levels.

Can you see the double standard?

TA

SC

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a woman posts to this site who has a serious fear of intimacy, but also a fear of abandonment.

How would you expect that dichotomy to manifest itself in her behaviour?

TA

Gang,

Please, please, please, help me out here. Can I start over? Refocus?

I am trying to make amends for my betrayal. I'm working hard to love-the-verb my husband. I have listed his virtues and all the wonderful ways he has worked to save our marriage many times on this board. Believe me, he has some annoying habits I overlook (And I have many that he overlooks). But I am not blind to the fact that he has been a bona fide HERO over the last 2 1/2 months.

There is a big pre-affair issue for me that resurfaced last night for the first time since D-day. It is the issue that he won't go out of his way to help our friends or other people. Over the years, having numerous conflicts about this issue, has made me lose respect for him. Every time it happens, it upsets me. I do not consider it a trival or smallish thing. It is an issue that's not going to go away, and I need some help knowing how to address it with him in a constructive way.

--SC

Well, if it has been an issue for years, then I think you are right. He is not going to change. This is how/who he is.

You are wasting your breath addressing it with him.

You need to address this with yourself. You can't change how he is. All you can change is your reaction to him.

Susan

Sc I'm no expert here & I have appreciated some of the things you have said in my post. rather than try to force him to accept you point of view on this look at it from his perspective & try to negotiate a middle ground, you cant force him into acting the way YOU want him to, you said he has always been this way right!

here is a quote from you in my tread


"I'd say early attempts for a BS to meet the needs of a FWS are almost always awkward and met with resistance. The problems between the two of you took years to develop. They're not going to go away overnight. After my affair, the first few times my H called me to 'check in', left me sweet little notes, bought me flowers, etc.. it just made me feel bad, and think "yuck." "

take some of your own advice, the problems wont go away overnight & it sounds like he was making an effort to make you feel better him. It made you feel worse "yuck" I know it may have been too much for you to soon but he could have gone a different way got angry & kicked you out etc. take a breath & don't be so hard on him right now. Learn how to communicate & come to a middle ground.

Cliff

I completely agree with Susan...you can only change what you can control. You have been married to this man for a long time. He has always acted this way. Could it really be that he does not want to help out his friends? Maybe you need to examine each situation and see what the "real" reason is that he is not lending a helping hand. The babysitting issue I feel was your fault. You did not ask him or even tell him that it was happening, so as petty as it sounds to you, your husband did have a right to be upset. So the next time an issue like this comes up take a step back and see if what you think is happening is in fact what is really happening.

Maybe if you and your husband would POJA each and every decision then this all can be avoided. The next time you want to lend a helping hand sit down with your husband and see if the two of you can come to a joint agreement.

I gotta tell you straight up that your posts come off as sounding like you are an overbearing person who is trying to brow beat her husband into doing what she wants. I may be wrong, but the tone of your posts seem wrong for a person who has betrayed her husband. It's almost like you are saying...ok I said I was sorry and now can everyone just get back to normal. Personally I feel like you as the BS have a lot of amends to make to your husband. He took you back for goodness sake!!!!

As Susan said...You can't change who your husband is, but you can change your reaction. Maybe you should try that instead.

smartcookie -

I think part of the problem is that you are feeling bad about your husband's attitude. It is HIS attitude, and has nothing to do with yours. I used to be mortified by some of my husband's actions. Somehow I took them to be a reflection on me, as I was his wife.

It will probably help if you accept that is the way he is. I think you can STILL have a good relationship.

Remember, there are things about everyone that others find troublesome.

I do agree with you that helping people is important. I would discuss it with him and let him know that you would appreciate his support.

Also he DID stand up for you. My husband would never stand up for me. He always made excuses for anyone who treated me poorly, and THAT was infuriating.