I'm celebrating that he has stopped all contact. He seems to be a man geniunely concerned to do the right thing. It will still take awhile to be free of that drug affecting his reasoning, but it will come and with it, better clarity.

This is your chance, Bitter.

I admire your honesty in your posts. Your willingness to write your book, state your perspective and the effort all of it takes.

Here's where I feel I'm like you--the housekeeping issue, the children, depression/insomnia (they are related) issues, the AO's and DJ's. I was a mind-reading, assumptive and actively controlling woman out of control. It was how I was reared. I had to earn love by acting in ways that were acceptable and good. The good girl syndrome. I was a human doing, not a human being. I couldn't see that for how little I thought I was doing in my life. My own tapes of failure ran in my head. It was hard to hear what anyone said.

I want to ask you, also, about your mutual pact to not air your laundry (what my mom used to say). This is another shame-based method of operation. Can I recommend a really good book? "Healing The Shame That Binds Us," John Bradshaw. A lot of people believe that not going to outside people for help in their marriage is a good thing. But then, a lot of people believe that to ask for help is shaming; to make your troubles known is to feel weak.

I do believe that there is no trouble in marriage without a third party...sort of. There's an essential third--God; but all the others are destructive. Be them influential friends, relatives, media (a tv can become a third party), addiction...you name it.

If there's only two, face to face and heart to heart, there's a way through anything. Unfortunately, when you turn your ears, face and heart away, you're facing someone else.

So, I'm not judging or preaching. Tell me if I'm close. I didn't have the church to tell me to spank my sons...I did it for their own good, the way it was done to me--in anger, with objects, and there were slaps and abuse from me, too. I have not hit my husband but it was a recurring fantasy for years, so I do believe I might have gotten to that point eventually.

Are you journaling?

LA

Post deleted by bitter2sweet

Wow - things seem like they are in a real mess. I suggest that you continue on the anti-D's, and get some help with anger management. Also I think I would put the kids in school, and get the house cleaned up. The anti-D's should help with that.

After that, maybe you can get a job to help with the finances. That will help raise your self-esteem some.

Read albout the emotional needs here, and start trying to meet each others needs. You need to find 15 hours a week for doing things together.

And whoever at your church says a child needs to be spanked all day needs their head examined.

B2S,

Seems like you've made a great start journaling here. You're capable and very good at it. Ever hear of an anger journal? They have posted about it here, maybe if you do a search. I have the same habit of journaling that my husband does--a pain journal. We have to be in pain or we don't write about anything. I use email sort of as a journal with him.

I understand that your original agreement to not involve familes but rather the church was a good premise. I think you can see now that getting the help you need individually is important. I recommend Al-Anon, too. If you are my long lost twin, you'll love that program. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm adopted, so you could be. Heehee.

And are you talking about flylady.net as far as the calendar and reminders go? They were a breakthrough for us. A blinding lightbulb went off above my H's head when I told him about the 15 minute rule. "I can do anything for 15 minutes!"

I thought I'd share something he said last night, off the cuff, when getting into the car. "I could not have imagined a year ago feeling this good, right now, with you." He thought if he committed to the marriage it would be more suffering and pain.

Honestly, I didn't imagine it this great because it wasn't like this before. It's better than the infatuation of our first years. I have my best friend back--a healthy, respected one. Someone I enjoy so much more than the enmeshed one I abused before. And I'm getting the chance to be that great partner. There is such joy in store for you.

One more thing. You said that you'd printed off the EN questionnaires but H wouldn't do them. Do them anyway. Do them yourself. That's what I mean about concentrating on you. I couldn't have named mine at all--to not want (other than that magical expectation in my head) was how I survived. Learning to know your needs is essential. And you can fill out one for him and ask him if you're close.

Thank you for replying, trying and not giving up on yourself. You're not alone. You never were. It was really hard for me to see that, so I want you to know that truth.

LA

b2s this is from your husband's thread at 9:35 last night:


May I ask if that has any basis in fact, and if so why do you have to conduct yourself that way? Yes kids are provocative (I have two), but how can this happen so soon after the recent incidents, and right on top of what you wrote yday?

Assuming that happened, I have to ask: Is it your intention to carry yourself that way? If not, isn't it time to stop these failures when you know very well they could cost your M and alienate and damage your children? We are all fallible, we all make mistakes, and God loves us all despite that. But your family may be at the end of its rope.

I just finished a reply to your H's post. Something occurred to me.

"What we want most is also what we are least giving."

You desire to be heard. You can't control being heard. I had a huge problem with this and it proved the above saying true. I wasn't listening, either. I could repeat, verbatim, but I wasn't listening. So I stopped concentrating on getting my point across and started active listening. The craving to be heard diminished. And when I spoke my thoughts and feelings as simple statements, I heard myself. I let go of the results.

I recommended two books to your husband for both of you. I have one more for you; Between Parent and Child. Do not yell (and that's difficult when you consider yelling one thing and the other person considers it something else)--for two days straight, I want you to whisper. Try it.

And when you do speak, listen to yourself. Make sure you're saying your truth, without exaggeration or understatement.

Focus on hearing your H and children, responding not with defensiveness but with truth--"I heard you say..." Tell them how you took their statements so you can see your own filters.

And exercise. I forgot to mention the saving grace of workouts. You're a bundle of pain/anger/stress from crossed up emotions. Working out was essential for me to bring down all those drugs being generated in my body as I weeded out what was truly linked to what inside me.

How's the solid bed time going? The insomnia? Obsessive thought-patterns? What are you angry at yourself most for?

LA

Post deleted by bitter2sweet

So good to see you here on your thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Okay, so you're saying you knew better but felt compelled to do it anyway because your positive changes are being overlooked. Sounds like you now know that there's more than two steps to being true to yourself...how you say your truth and where you say it. Then there's when...and to whom. I'm ornery, aren't I? Anyway, separating yourself from your reflected self (your H) is difficult...incredibly difficult. I just want to concentrate on you, not your reflected image here. You. Alone.

A segue:

"I know I need to learn to listen and hear better." You learned above that what you do and what you know are two very different things. I didn't ask you to learn to listen and hear better. I asked you to listen. Period. I was trying say that what we were taught as listening is not listening. WNH was of the same mind. You realize that you "map" while another person speaks. I call it mapping because instead of hearing the words and affirming you heard, you're figuring out why they are saying what they're saying, where it affects you, where's your guilt, your power and how to respond, how that response will be taken (calculating odds and probabilities) and the result of all this mapping is the feeling you're listening intently.

Been there. Still do that sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're not alone. I do take your inexperience with listening seriously! You're not defective. You're a novice. Ready to advance. Okay. First, the mapping comes from fear. You know you're fear-based...you figured that out fast in your reply to WNH. Your fear is based on inappropriate beliefs...fear your response will be judged, it will be wrong, it will have the wrong effect, you won't get the results you want; you'll be misunderstood, manipulated...and the list goes on.

Consider changing this belief...then the fear will leave.

First, separate what you want out of a conversation--to be heard or to hear? I believe the tenet "First, strive to understand, then be understood." A good mantra to replace a worn-out belief. Would you believe that when your H speaks, he only wants to be understood? He doesn't want you to fix anything...just know and let him know you know what you heard. No mapping required. No judgment, manipulation or special response. His truth is his truth. You want to know his truth.

First, you restate back what he said. Then you wait for him to correct or affirm what you heard. Correction isn't a punishment or a wrong--beginning real communication often brings to light to both the speaker and the listener shortcuts and mis-statements that weren't apparent before. My H (the old one) used to say, "You know what I meant!" I used to drive people nuts by saying "You know what I mean?" about every sentence.

These are signs. So, when your H says "No, I didn't say that," you don't have to feel it was your fault. You just restated his words as you heard them. The next level, after you get comfortable with state and repeat is to not repeat your H's words, but to say, "What I heard you say was..." and tell him what you heard. When you feel safer, you begin letting him in on your filters--your mapping a bit, but just a little. It's progressive. It's beautiful.

In order to cut the mapping out, you have to believe that what he says is what he says...he is not reflecting you. Your job is to clarify this to yourself, catching the you-know-what-I-meants and the "buts" conversation slayers. "I know I said that but you heard it wrong." "I know you don't understands" "I can never talk to you (and that's your fault)" "Yes, I said that but you twisted my words." These are abusive sayings that change your reality. You both do this to each other and it creates that crazy feeling inside of you, like you don't live in the same world. Words are powerful, huh?

When you hear these words, "You make me..." be sure to wait until he finishes and say, "I hear you feel that I caused this in you. I don't believe I can make you do or feel anything." It's not confrontation, it's clarification. What he feels is valid. What you feel is valid. This internal belief that he can make you crazy, mad, happy, etc. and vice versa, is one from childhood. Time to let that go. Then you can listen. Really listen.

Seems you listen very well in the written form. If this communication thing is too tough at first (and it can be for anybody...you've been talking all your life, why would you suck at this?)...you can try a journal. A notebook. You write out a statement or a question then give it to your husband. One couple did this. A wife here wrote out her feelings for that time, gave it to her husband to take to work, then he would bring it home and give it back with his thoughts. Then she would write in it, then him...you get the idea.

You listened very well to my questions. I have a clean slate with you. You don't know me (other than being related of course) and that makes all that mapping unnecessary.

I have a tip from my own childhood for the bedtime issue. I had a bedtime of 8:30pm and could read until 9pm. Gives a better settling in time. And yes, you might find them with flashlights under the covers and crossing your boundaries, but it's not as disruptive. Don't look at it like facing another problem--it really is another opportunity for you to look at reality. This is your life. You've created it. You can create it again. You don't make your children do stuff anymore than your H. Cooperation is critical. However, knowing that boundaries will be enforced, consequences aren't pleasant (ahead of time) gives them choices they are conscious of. You can do this. You're getting there already.

You don't have to be supermom and superwife instantly to save your marriage. You aren't remaking a bad self into a good one. You are fear-based, including fear of intimacy...if your H really knew you, he couldn't love you. That's another erroneous childhood belief you have operated by your whole life. Just knowing you have that hidden belief, acknowledging, judging it in the daylight of adulthood and all that your experience has taught you is enough to begin to change that. You're on your way, toots. You aren't alone.

I want you to congratulate yourself on sleeping even 6 1/2 hours. You've made more progress than you know, in light of your current stress levels. And you're hopeful, which is good mental health caretaking. I suggest working out at night (I had to join a gym because I couldn't face the television perfect bodies). I pay $51 a month for a family of five membership. We're not wealthy...but I cut out television and movies all together and it was paid for easily. When I work out after work (which would be after dinner for you?), then I sleep deeper...kick in that growth hormone that combats stress and sleep a solid 8 hours. I got a lot of energy from it.

Obsessive thought patterns...exactly what I meant. That looped thinking that leads you round and round through the maze of what-ifs and if-onlys, and how-could-I's and what-wills. Very difficult to stop. It's related to your mapping. However, you can stop it. Part of it comes from stopping yourself from judging yourself in every step. That human doing thing transformed into human being.

Here's something that embarrasses me to share. I'm sharing it anyway (see where my screen name comes from?). I felt so nonexistent, unheard, invisible and inconsequential that to find the road back to being, I had to say "I am," just those two words, roughly 30 times a day. When my obsessive thoughts began, I would stop and say, "I am," inhale, exhale, and move on. I say it with force, out loud, or whisper it in public or at work. I still say it a few times a week.

Hope this helps for now. Share your day and feelings, perspectives and what resonates with you and what sounds like a foreign language.

LA

B2S: Success breeds success. Have that one first good day of doing things right for your spouse. Don't expect your kids to understand or help; they won't understand, and besides it's not up to them. It's up to you. You are his wife. I say exactly the same to your H, if he's reading. A4A it's up to you, not to your kids or anybody else.

Then, when you've had that good day, you should rejoice and celebrate your success. Thank God for it. On that day you should rightly feel terrific about what you've achieved. But don't look to your spouse for validation or expect your spouse to recognize it. Do mark it on the calendar as the start of your new better M. Then do the same the next day.

If both you and your H both had a good day on the same day, then have a toast together or something. But do not look to each other for validation. You do it because it's the right thing to do.

We are all human; it's for sure that on some day you will fail; don't be too hard on yourself. Instead, look back at that streak of X days in a row of being a good and successful W, set your jaw, and determine to set a new record starting right then. I think this will work for you. Stubbornness can be a virtue if put to work the right way.

If I can add a thought; there is always a reason for failure. Forget that kind of thinking. That's a losing approach. I hope I'm not out of line to make an observation that you seem to have lots and lots of reasons for your failures. I would say exactly the same to your H. I don't call them excuses; that's a harsh word to use on anybody. But I do say this: Enough already with the failures, and reasons for failures, and difficulties arising from those failures. No matter how good the reason, if the failures continue you will surely lose your M.

How about some successes, reasons for successes, and celebration of successes? This is a call to action and a challenge. Start right now! You can do that! With God's help and a clear recognition that it's vital to save your marriage. Are you ready to do what you need to do?

Post deleted by bitter2sweet

If I lived near you, I would come on over and give you a hand. It's kind of fun to do a house with friends.

What helps me (as I have no self-discipline), is to spend 5 minutes a day in each room, cleaning and straightening. I actually look at the clock, and stop in 5 minutes. I have 8 rooms, so it only takes 40 minutes. When I do it everyday, the house always looks presentable.

As far as you being a time bomb ready to explode, I don't know, and neither do your husband and children. It is frightening to be around a person like that.

I'm really hoping the meds will give you some relief. Please don't feel like I am blaming you for everything. I think your on-line activities, shopping, and lack of motivation to clean the house indicate that you are not getting your needs met.

Back again. I just read Starfish's post on your husband's thread. It will probably make you angry and make you feel hopeless. I just want to tell you that she is one of the experts here, and also on the saveyourmarriagecentral board.

She helped me a lot, mostly by telling me things that I DIDN'T want to hear.

Hang in there, and prayers to you.

bitter,

Believer is right that the advice I gave your husband will be upsetting for you....I'm so very sorry about that....but I stand by my advice and it is very much in keeping with Harley's stand on domestic violence and everything else I have learned in my training. The folks here want to help you, and your situation is NOT hopeless....but you don't need a forum....you need real face to face help from a professional who can give it to you directly and support you with treatment and monitor your medication. Your needs are beyond the scope of this board. In fact, a forum where you can vent (which is proven to be unhelpful) or remain in denial and victimhood is likely to keep you from seeking the real help you need elsewhere. You need professional help and medication to deal with your depression and anger problems. That is the only ethical advice that I can give you here.

This is a marriage forum that was never designed to do those things....and there is a real danger in "advising" you if you aren't getting the trained help that you desperately need. Your children do not deserve to go uneducated and live in fear because of your problems....that is child abuse.....and believe me when I tell you that it is unlawful as well as awful. The yelling and screaming is verbal abuse. The throwing things and hitting is physical abuse. Neglecting your children's education is against the law and along with the abuse, is grounds for the state to reomove your children from your home.

I promise you that I am a kind a loving person who would also step in to help you and comfort you if I was anywhere near you....but my responsibility today as a member of this forum is to give you the best advice I can....and that is: Your needs cannot be met here and I urge you to get off of the computer and re-enter your life. Get the help you need to clean up your life and your house. Get your children in school where they will be in a learning environment before the state steps in takes from you.

You're in big trouble sweetie....and my heart breaks for you....but there is help for depression and anger and you need to get yourself together so that you don't destroy your marriage, your family and your life. Don't give up! And I'm not telling your husband to give up on YOU. I am telling him that you must do more than "talk" about getting better....and that you must "demonstrate" BEING better for a period of time before he will agree to put himself or the children at risk by living with you. You've become a danger to yourself and others....and I desperately pray you get the help you need.

(((((((((((((((((((((bitter))))))))))))))))))

Post deleted by bitter2sweet

Well, I got my minimum housework done since last posting to you. I also decided to clean my revere ware copper pans - you know the ones that turn from copper colored to black. They are gleaming. Now I won't want to use them!

Haha. After all the talk about keeping my home clean, I found 2 rotten potatoes in a drawer in the pantry. YUCK! There were flies growing there. I'd noticed lots of fruit flies, but thought it was from the FRUIT!!!!!!!!

Glad to see that you are getting counseling. Also I'm very hopeful that the meds will kick in soon.

I forget how old your kids are. But they should be able to help a little with the house. I like to play music while I clean. It seems like it makes it go faster.

B2S,

I'm sorry about calling you "bitter"....we shorten stuff around here to reduce typing and I shortened without thinking....sorry.


That has a lot to do with your unhappiness...but not your behavior. Your behavior....specifically your lack of anger control is not caused by your needs not being met....I'm sorry, but that is an excuse and will not help you to recover control. You are still searching for control externally...and it can't be found there. *IF* is a big word....and it implies that under the right external conditions (if your needs are met, if there are no more triggers etc)....you can have control....that isn't enough. Life is full of stress and triggers and you must control your behavior in spite of them. Your behavior is caused by an inability to regulate your emotions and control destructive outbursts or destructive habits that are destroying your life. Not having your needs met can make you very unhappy and even severely depressed....but most unhappy people, even horribly unhappy people, don't throw things, hit people, wield knives or frighten children. They also don't neglect to make sure their children are educated.

Every abusive person in the world blames someone/something else for their loss of control, and as long as you're concentrating on external rather than internal factors like what your husband has or has not done....your energy will be diverted into things you have no power to change (others) and you will continue to feel terribly powerless to regain happiness. You can't change your husband. You can only change you.

You need to stop explaining your behavior....and stop making excuses....and start owning it without any talk of what your husband did or didn't do, excuses, explanations, rationalizations etc. If your husband is as close to violence as you say he is (and you are just as likely to be the one hit next time)....that is just further evidence that this situation is far to violatile to be safe, especialy for your children.

Being apart doesn't mean you can't see each other...it only means that until you two learn to resolve conflict, or issues like "need meeting" without putting your children through these horrible scenes....that you don't live together. As an example....many many needs can be met while dating during separation.

You've mentioned that you've spent a long time studying the concepts here....and yet in those three years....your marriage has gotten worse....how do you explain that? How have these concepts helped you in that time to do even the most basic things in your life? It will take a long time to get control of those things....but believe me, you CAN do it.

What kind of doctor are you seeing? What is the name of the medication prescribed? How often are you seeing your doctor? What are you doing to address the anger problem and possible Internet and spending addictions? What decision have you made about your children's education?

Your needs are greater than the scope of this board chere.

Post deleted by bitter2sweet

B2S,

Star is the professional. Everything I say to you is not. What I hear is that I'm doing more harm than good, and I believe it because I've done that before.

I think you're feeling the crushing weight of your past actions and thinking of the future--jumping there with, "Well, I won't live this down, so why try?" What I want you to focus on right now is the present. This moment. Like a laser beam.

Answer all the questions here with simple, direct statements, as if you're taking a survey and don't know what it's on. Don't allow yourself to guess or suppose what they are getting at, where they are going. In this moment, focus on knowing the intent of the survey is good. There's no harm in it. No threat. It's a pure survey.

God is with you.

Every negative thought that comes into your head as to being judged, I want you to kiss it and let it go. You can not plot, examine every word and predict the future. I'm not allowing you to do that right now.

Breathe, inhale the goodness of this moment. I mean it. In the present, each moment, you are not in charge of leading. You are letting God lead.

LA

bittersweet,

You don't have to be a ticking a time bomb, and no one is saying that you will forever be stuck in this "mode" of anger.

Please check out this website: http://www.compassionpower.com/ Steven Stosny is one of the most well respected psychologists around who deal specifically with emotional regulation. His Compassion Power Series is mandated by many states for folks who need help overcoming anger and self destructive issues. I'm going to helping out at a boot camp he's doing later this month.

Please know that you should not give up. It's okay to regret things....but I do not want you to feel shame. I care about you....and I'm doing my best to advise you in the best way I can. You are in my prayers.

((((((((((((((((((((b2s)))))))))))))))))))))

"So what I keep hearing over and over again here is that I will always be looked upon as a time bomb ready to explode because no one will ever be sure of me no matter what measures I take. Sounds kind of hopeless to me, and all I'm looking for is a little piece of hope to hang onto."

No one said that at all. We are trying to encourage you to get some help for your angry outbursts. Have you told your doctor the stuff that is happening at your home?

I think you feel like we are picking on you. We aren't, but trying to help you and your family. I know you must be feeling miserable and hopeless, but there is no need to feel that way. Make yourself a promise that you will address these issues.