Post deleted by anxious4answers

I didn't realize you both were relay-running the computer today. Now that's together time. I hope Bitter understands why I was trying to keep the threads separate. I feel badly because I get tough and it sounds like a reprimand to me. I'm sorry.

Anxious...kudos to you for owning you're a people pleaser. You are being very honest and introspective. Now, tell me how dangerous it is to be a people pleaser. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(You married one, too)

I'm really glad you brought up the severe lack of SF and what it means to you. It meant rejection. Rejection of you, inside and out. That's what it felt like. That's what it meant to you, whether your wife intended it that way or not. That you revealed it means you're getting into those under layers of resentments and willing to be vulnerable. Thank you very much. And you did that in the face of questioning adversity...not conflict, but close. I do believe you really want what's good and not what's good enough.

Something to chew on...when I say only you control yourself, I don't just mean your actions--I'm talking about your beliefs. You believe that sex is used as a way of controlling somebody. You have power over that belief. It's a adolescent belief coupled with a younger one. The younger one is that people can control other people. That's a powerful belief. Is it true to you? Or was it from observing with limited information in your formative years? Sure felt like our parents controlled us (that was reinforced over and over again, wasn't it?); ergo, we are supposed to control our children! Therefore, we control others!!!!

Sorry, just makes me nuts. I bought all that. Until now. The scariest truth in the world is that children obey, they aren't controlled. They choose. God's structure. God can't make you saved. He can't make you see anything you don't want to--why would he give us the disrespectful ability to control anyone but ourselves? Jesus taught by example, in the face of those furious he didn't make others fall in line.

Please examine these beliefs...we all have them, live by them and see life through them--and some are formed at age 2. Now that's scary! I'm calling you immature; I'm trying to free your perspective to match your age and experience. We are incredibly complicated creatures.

I like how this time when you were saying that your wife demanded you bring home $1000 more a month, you did acknowledge that's not what your wife believes. That's a start. You didn't state a fact, you stated what you heard. You're already making strides in this area. Because of this, I'm going to assert my opinion on you revising history.

I'm not pointing out irregularities in what you're saying about your marriage. I wouldn't know. Not my place. My place is to hear how you see it--with the cautionary knowledge that you have a filter right now that is distorting your recollection. I only want you to understand that this extra layer of filter exists and to be aware of it. Give yourself the benefit of the doubt. How your marriage looks to you is valid. I'm just saying it looked different to you five years ago and will two months ago if you keep in no contact. I urge you to be aware that it is normal to seek justification for your actions to get what you want...we did it for candy, for play time and peer pressure.

Be aware that you had to have had a lot of good times, comfortable, pleasant togetherness or you would have ended it long before now. It wasn't intolerable, constant rejection, degradation and abuse. Your marriage fed you--maybe you feel you deserve/need this rejection. To have it regularly, where you count on it, is far better than the sudden lack of it, not knowing when it comes strikes a deeper fear.

Thank you for telling me about your condition and the very real fear of the future. You know your wife would love you through that, right? She would be able to see your soul separate from any degeneration because of your years together. A new person can say they would, but they have no basis but a promise. Your wife and you have done the same thing--stayed together. You've done that. Different reasons and intents at different times, but you've done that for years and years. New person can only give lip service because she's willing to break you apart for her own desires. That's not love. That's not staying power. That belief of hers only means that she'll be willing to replace you when you're no longer new and shiny, but start to tarnish. And she'll make it your fault when she does.

Since you're together right now, would you guys mind holding your hands palm to palm for thirty seconds, without speaking. Talk in your hearts to each other and sit there, for half a minute and listen.

Always got more for ya...but I have to go for now.

LA

I read that post. You are in an awful situation - your whole family is. But it doesn't always have to be that way. I still encourage you to insist that your wife get some anger management counseling.

I am reading her posts, and see that she has an explanation for these episodes. To tell you the truth, the MB advice in the case of DV is to separate. If you were a wife posting, everyone would be telling you to leave.

I'm hoping your wife's anti-D's will kick in and she will get some relief. That should improve things on the home front. It sounds like the shopping and neglect of the house has to do with depression.

But you still must know that your girlfriend has to be out of the picture. I hope that things can get better in your marriage - they have for hundreds of people here. But if there is the worst case scenario and they don't, you still need to finish this relationship before starting another.

Post deleted by anxious4answers

Post deleted by anxious4answers

What a great lead to your post.

"Being a people pleaser has many pitfalls. One is to change who you are to please your spouse. I realize now that in the end this only causes them to lose respect for you." Okay, and what about losing respect and acceptance for yourself?

As you go on, I hear..

I tried that which lead to this, which lead to, then I had no choice but to...

Where are your choices? Own your stuff! "I chose to give better domestic support in exchange for SF. Sometimes I got the result I expected and sometimes I didn't. I stopped my domestic support increase and then I chose to have an affair." You did this. You did this against your principals, upbringing and faith. Own it. No guilt. Face your reality honestly.

You attempted to fix a problem, not solve a conflict. You still assume that she controls SF. Do you know why you have a high sex drive? What does sex mean to you? Do you fantasize a lot? Porn? Get to the heart of yours, and then get to the heart of hers. Hear your truth, unvarnished. Then hear hers.

You were attracted to and shared a lot of intimacy in the fusion stage of your relationship. She's fully capable of having a healthy sex drive.

God is at issue here, too. Your beliefs are critical to your marriage and expectations. Your libido is determined by your brain, heavily influenced by your thoughts and thought pattern. Just as you have experienced years of rejection from not having this need met, so has your wife experienced rejection by not meeting this need. She is fear-based, also, and that can manifest by fearing sexual intimacy, not pleasing well enough, not feeling desirable but just an object if she doesn't understand what sex with her means to you.

What does it mean to you? What does it symbolize? How does it feed you?

I'm comfortable talking with you about it. Surprise--I was raised Catholic also. Tada! And it brings to light another thing to give you hope, if my marriage is just one year away from yours right now. I was like your wife. That's where my suggestions to get to know what SF means to her and vice versa comes in. Pure projection. Anyway, today, I'm the one craving and waiting on hubby. Used to be the other way around. Only my craving isn't intense and desperate; it's got a quiet passion, a permission to partake of a body and soul I adore. I've come to understand what I like and don't...separate from my reflection (DH); I acknowledge even in the act my own senses, how it feeds me, and that it is separate from anything he does or doesn't. We've taken it to the level of celebration, not mutual masturbation. It's where he's accepted fully as he is, and me, also.

That's worth waiting for. That's worth scheduling. I know what stops him is not my fault--he has his own issues with body image, sex addiction, fantasy and self-doubt.

You can get there from here and it can be so much better than ever before. No fusion to confuse. Just you, wholly you and her, wholly her.

"An open mind is the first step to understanding." I believe you and I'm counting on that to be your truth.

"She even said today that like you, she was really intending to hurt herself. I really don't know what to think. She was pointing it at me, not herself or some object. If she is really just trying to explain it away so that I stay here, I could be in danger. If that is true, then she is in danger."

You're DJing her again. "If she is really just trying to explain it away." Hey, she stated her truth. Acknowledge that. Don't assume her motive is to explain something away. She said what she believed. That's all she can do. You believe what you do. You know how it felt to be in your shoes. But don't distort this with your mindreading, please. You're better than that. It's a terrible and abusive habit you have.

I get that you are scared. Validated. Heard. Understandable. Shocking. I get that you believe you're unprotected because others might not take you seriously, being male. That's even more vulnerable.

You are in danger. She is in danger. You're in danger of breaking a family apart and there's your reason. Take it. Leave.

Forget that when you said the marriage was over if she didn't stop hitting you, that she stopped. Forget that she owns what she did, as much as she can, and that she is in therapy for anger management, she's here, she's as good as her word TODAY.

You say you know you're under the influence, but you're still trying to reason that way. You don't own your own actions but require that your wife does and that you be made to feel safe immediately. You know that my judgment is biased because I lived through abuse, both giving and receiving and believe I am the better for it. Not a survivor, but a thriver. Consider the source.

Believer is appalled at your situation. She's in your corner. She's closer to your perspective. I'm not. I'm the knife-wielder. I know that hurting others was not on my agenda...I was surprised I couldn't plunge the knife into myself because I deserved it. I have a bias. I know that in directing my anger at my H, I deflect it from myself...where it was consuming me to my core.

I got help. I got education. You want to make this the hill you end your marriage on, then do it. Only consult with all the experts, read all the books, and until you understand what part is yours and what part is hers, how you abuse and why you take abuse, then you're guaranteeing that the next one you replace your wife with will harm you or your children--there will be no history or connection. You will still be doing what you do, believing what you believe. I don't see it as a solution. That's my perspective.

Sorry to sound harsh. I am triggering to my dramatic accusation again. The mother who pointed the knife at me and hit me was my stepmother. My mother died when I was 8 and my dad remarried in just a year. One of the first edicts (I felt) was her demand, "Don't you dare call me stepmother, like something wicked. And don't use the excuse your mother died to get any sympathy. It's just a ploy." I heard, "Don't fixate on the negative. You won't be liked." Or something like that. I'm reacting to you fixating on an event that affected you greatly. If you hadn't been having an affair, then I'm sure I would see it in a different light.

But you were. How long? How many? Truth time.

LA

LA is giving you good advice.

I'm giving you the MB thought - abuse is abuse is abuse. I'm hoping that your wife will see that you are about done and will get some help.

She DOES explain it away.

And don't think this is from someone who hasn't been there. Very early in my marriage with my boy's dad, I got stressed to the point where my baby was sleeping, and I wanted to take a nap. My older son was not cooperating. I grabbed him by the arm, and started kicking him toward his bedroom. Afterward, I realized that I was abusing him, and felt HORRIBLE.

Please forgive me if I overstep my bounds here but I just wanted to make a few comments. Of course this is my opinion based on what I have read here on MB concerning your relationship. I am sure there is much I do not know. I am a stay at home mom who also homeschools. I have 4 children, 3 of which are educated at home. Most of the time if my husband wants to cut me deep or take the focus off of him, he will start to point fingers at my homeschooling the kids. I am sure we as HS moms could all do better in time management but I will also this is a target for attack. Unless you are the home educator you can't see all the progress that is made until later on. Education comes in a lot of packages and the teachable moment at home is one of them. Again, it is easy to slam the homeschool mom because of the mindset of many. I will also say that I think I remember hearing you say that house keeping was a struggle. I know for me this worsens with the kids at home but is a great way to involve them in learning discipline and a servant heart. OK I guess I am rambling on but i am just saying sometimes I think my husband likes to point out my weak areas so that his aren't being addressed. I will also say I have never pointed a knife at my husband but when a man is having an affair it makes you want to say and do things you never thought possible. Not to excuse it but I just know how it throws you over the edge.

Please understand I am not trying to EVER excuse abuse. I was just trying to take a look from my perspective as a homeschooling mom. So many times when we are angry we take it out on those we love and want to protect most. We must be so careful when we are stressed beyond what we could ever imagine. We really need to stay in the presence of God. just wanted to clarify my comments.

Julieco - Thanks for pitching in here. I'm very worried about these two. It helps to have someone who has home schooled. I don't think those of us who haven't done it can understand.

anxious,

I'm one of the old timers here and I've read all the threads and posts associated with your marriage. I'm going to give you some "by the book" MB advice. Let me also say (so that you give my advice some weight), I will have my certification for marriage coaching in March after many years of training.

From Dr. Harley:

Domestic violence is not as common as people think. Most of the troubled couples I've counseled have never experienced domestic violence and most couples, in general, go through life without having had a single physical altercation. If your spouse has ever hit you, or if you have ever hit your spouse, you're in a tragic and dangerous minority. But as uncommon as the problem is, whenever it occurs, people are shocked and confused as to what to do about it. My perspective as a professional who has counseled hundreds of violent clients is that these couple should be separated until there is assurance of safety. In many cases that assurance can never be given.

If you have ever hit your spouse, you are a perpetrator of domestic violence and need to take extraordinary steps to protect your spouse from yourself. Most violent spouses are deeply remorseful after sending their husbands or wives to the hospital, and sometimes to their death. But remorse does not make up for the mistake. Violence is one of those mistakes in life that you cannot ever afford to make, and if you've done it once, you're likely to do it again.

Throughout my career as a marriage counselor, I have done whatever I can to save marriages, but when it comes to domestic violence I draw the line. Unless a spouse can guarantee the other's safety from their own anger, I don't believe they should live with each other.

Please read this whole section: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5022_qa.html

This situation is unsafe for both you and your children. You need to establish safety first.....that's means separating and shielding your children from abuse, and abusive and unhealthy environments until your wife can get the help she needs. Your wife has multiple problems that need treatment, and she needs to demonstrate consistently over time that she is able to: control anger, control spending, stop making excuses and rationalizations for her poor behavior, clean up her act and do more than "try" to be a good wife and mother. Denying children an education because of procrastination is a form of abuse and you had every right to enroll your children in school without her consent to stop the abuse.

No matter what excuse or rationalization she comes up with for threatening you with a knife.....you are VERY wise to recognize that DV is progressive and neither you nor your children are safe until she undergoes treatment and gets medicated properly.

No work can be done on this marriage until safety is part of the equation. It is unethical to advise you to stay under those circumstances....or to help you sort through marriage issues while you remain at risk.

I'm not saying you should abandon her or divorce her...not at all. I think you should give her a chance to show you that she is capable of changing and demonstrating that. And I certainly think that having an emotional affair is unethical and that must be end and never start up again. An affair is not the answer.

But none of that changes the fact that you and the children are currently unsafe and need to be away from your wife until she sufficiently demonstrates consistently that she can re-enter marriage and motherhood in a loving and capable way.

Your wife may be angry about what I've written but here are the facts: She has an anger problem, she has a spending problem, she doesn't work...even around the house, she stayed home to school the children and instead, let them live in filth while she spends hours and money on the computer....she's neglected and abused both you and the children. The fact that you are big strong guy, doesn't mean she gets to hit you. The psychological damage that is being done to these children needs to stop now....they live in fear and uncertainty that is destructive to their psyches.

You've been living in an environment of filth, overspending, neglect and abuse.....and so have your children. There is not one area of her life that wife has emotional control over and she needs all the help and support that you can give her....but that doesn't mean that you should live in her chaos while she is still out of control.

Sometimes, the most compassionate thing you can do for someone you love, is allow that person to face the consequences of their actions. If you remain with your wife while she continues these behaviors, you are in fact enabling her bad behavior. Work on your marriage....but do so from a safe distance that doesn't put everyone there at risk. If your wife is serious about changing....she will change and you will eventually be able to reunite your family when she is ready. That is what I hope and pray for your family.

Blessings to all of you.

A4A I wholeheartedly agree with star*fish's post. Granted nobody is close to the situation like you ans B2S are. But based on what you two have said, there is not a single word in star*fish's post that I disagree with. I hope she posts to your wife's thread as well. But I will add that I think there are things you should be doing; you've owned some problems. No excuses; attack those problems and solve them.

anxious,

Please be advised that every state in this union has a "compulsory education law" that charges parents to either send their children to public school or provide them with the equivalent education at home. Your children are getting neither. Your attorney advised you to enroll your children in school BECAUSE if you stand by while your children are uneducated sufficiently at home or leave them with someone who is too emotionally unstable to do it you will be held accountable just like your wife is. It could result in the state taking your children away from you, and putting them in foster care. Please do not back down from insisting your children attend public school until your wife's emotional issues can be sorted through. She is not in a good place right now, and should not be the sole caregiver for the children.

Wow, Star...I don't know how to process this:

"If you have ever hit your spouse, you are a perpetrator of domestic violence and need to take extraordinary steps to protect your spouse from yourself."

He says ever..."ever." Says it is progressive. I'm a big Harley fan--his work saved my marriage, no doubt. But ever?

Ten years ago, the hits stopped. Unlike any other abuse progressive abuse scenario, A4A says, "No more or else" and it stops. Doesn't recurr.

"Unless a spouse can guarantee the other's safety from their own anger, I don't believe they should live with each other."

Is a decade enough of a guarantee?

I can't process Harley's meaning that in A4A's situation.

I just can't.

I've met Harley in person. I think he is very clear about his stance on domestic violence. He says that "extraordinary" steps need to be taken....and that safety must be ensured. He doesn't say that once an abuser always an abuser....he says that if you've "ever" hit your spouse you were a perpetrator of DV.

Where have you gotten the idea that the domestic violence in A4A's situation has stopped?????....it has escalated. The knife situation was last month. At that same time she threw and hit him with other objects.

from A4A

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2892310



I'm not sure how you've misunderstood this situation....but I made sure to read every post and this not ten years old.

You're right. I didn't think of "hitting" your spouse with a tupperware sugarbowl. I thought hitting them with your hands.

And I left out the child abuse because of what you quoted.

I can see how you can see escalation.

My concern? We are being told by a WS about how terrible his wife is--I have felt like an OW listening to some of it. Amazingly, she came here and owned her actions. She didn't say, "He's lying. I would never do that." She said she did those things. She said why. You say she's explaining them away...when they can't be explained away. You reinforce the unreality that these actions can be explained away. I don't understand that.

You said on her thread that her issues need professional help, "Your needs cannot be met here." Yet when I advised A4A to get the answer to his domestic violence question from professionals, to establish how deep his concern and fear was, you answered him.

I agree that B2S should leave the home, given Harley's statement. He says that is what she should do. While she's in therapy and on medication, she should be separated from her husband, because Harley says she "need(s) to take extraordinary steps to protect your spouse from yourself."

What I read you as saying is that A4A needs to remove himself and the children from the home. I see that as an important difference.

LA

LA,

You're right.

I sure don't care about being right....in fact, I pretty much hate being right about this kinda stuff yanno?

I didn't think of "hitting" your spouse with a tupperware sugarbowl. I thought hitting them with your hands.

I don't see "tupperware" mentioned (which implies that it could be light and non-threatening)so I'm not sure what kind of sugar bowl we're talking about. Mine is ceramic...so are my flower pots. In any case, I doubt either was comfortable as a projectile.

And I left out the child abuse because of what you quoted.

One thing that's really important is not just whether a2a's wife is hitting the children, but the fact that they are witnessing and frightened by the adult chaos...that is also abuse. The lack of education is another form of abuse. So there is alot to deal with in this situation.

I can see how you can see escalation.

The conditions in this home have reached dangerous proportions. Part of my training has been focussed on recognizing abuse and offering direction for those people involved in situations that need greater help.

My concern? We are being told by a WS about how terrible his wife is--I have felt like an OW listening to some of it.

All I can do to soothe your concerns a bit is to tell you that if a2a was posting alone....and I didn't have the confessions of violence, sexual withdrawal, depression etc. right from his wife....I would deal with a2a's claims far more skeptically. In this case....we have both spouses posting....and that's a rarity and offers a more complete picture. I didn't excuse his affair....and if you noticed....I told him it was unethical and must end now and forever.

Amazingly, she came here and owned her actions.

Ownership is far more than confession. She continues to say "I did this BUT...." It's the "but" that is the problem because she admits to doing these things but doesn't take full responsibility (ownership). When someone says "I lost control but it's not really my fault because I was....." then that's not ownership.

She didn't say, "He's lying. I would never do that." She said she did those things. She said why.

She blamed them on everything but her own inability to regulate her emotions and actions.

You say she's explaining them away...when they can't be explained away. You reinforce the unreality that these actions can be explained away. I don't understand that.

I'm sorry....but I'm not following you here. I'm not sure what you mean.

You said on her thread that her issues need professional help, "Your needs cannot be met here." Yet when I advised A4A to get the answer to his domestic violence question from professionals, to establish how deep his concern and fear was, you answered him.

I'm not challenging your advice chere. It's not unusual for more than one person to recommend professional advice. But I am bound by ethical standards to tell him to establish safety for himself, his wife...as well as minor children.

I agree that B2S should leave the home, given Harley's statement. He says that is what she should do. While she's in therapy and on medication, she should be separated from her husband, because Harley says she "need(s) to take extraordinary steps to protect your spouse from yourself."

What I read you as saying is that A4A needs to remove himself and the children from the home. I see that as an important difference.

At this point....the goal is safety. What the mechanics of that might be....I don't know for sure. a2a may want to go to his parents for instance so he has help with the children, or b2s may be the one who wants to bunk with family for awhile. Whatever works for them is fine as long as everyone is safe and protected.

Hope this helps <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you about B2S not owning her behavior. I regretted after posting that she owned it. She comes closer than those who deny. I saw that as a commendable step.

I do not see her "blaming on everything but" as you do. In parts, yes, and in parts, no. What she said about knowing her anger signals and choosing not to heed them was important. I was reacting to what appeared to be your blanketing response in a similar manner of absolutes. I try to example good communication. I slip. I endeavor to not use "ever" "always" "everything" because they are untrue. They are triggers for people who live in those words in their head, a constant, destructive drone.

That's why I was surprised that you would say she does explain it away, and that you don't understand how detrimental that statement is to someone who's been living in a distorted reality. I believe what your intent was to say that she attempted to explain away her behavior. That she didn't own her actions.

I believe it's important to practice the distinction--you cannot explain an event away. That's the wishful child idea. You can explain the cause of an event, or a reaction to one, but not the event. It happened.

From your response to my believing who leaves is important, I see that you thought I was talking the mechanics of it. And that either you don't understand the significance, or consider it not important enough to remark on. I respect these two adults to work out the mechanics of a separation. I was looking at the goal of safety as well as the important symbol of him leaving. Not the mechanics.

You were saying this to A4A, quoting Harley, and not saying it to B2S...though Harley explictly stated she should remove herself. I believe that when we own our actions, at first we feel like we own all the blame. We don't see that we own the good, the protective actions we can take, also. The redemptive ones. A4A began this with a huge claim on victimhood. No ownership over anything. I didn't want him to be told, yes, you're right, run. I felt he wanted permission without responsibility. That didn't mean I wanted him to forfeit his safety.

I subscribe to the philosophy that every action (and that words are actions) counts. Being told to separate and then work on the marriage steps over who leaves to get to the safety goal. These people have been stepped over a lot. Could you advise B2S to be the one to demonstrate her love and awareness, as it would benefit the family far more than A4A removing his family to safety.

LA

Anxious,

Just checking to see if you're going to answer my last post, now that you have your question answered.

LA

LA,
Yes I will answer.

My choices are in the ways I have responded to the actions and behaviors. The fact is that I did make the choice to basically walk away and have an affair. Yes, sex is big to me. It always has been. I don't know why except that it seems that the less I get, the more I think about it. So in that, I do fantasize about it. As time went on, porn did become an issue. It took a long time for this to happen, but once it did it took off. I know we are supposed to own our actions. I do own the fact that I responded that way. I do want to say though... When we got married, I was a very strong "Born again Christian". At this point I don't even see myself as a christian at all. The stress and such in this marriage has really taken it's toll. I am to the point that I just can't take getting hurt anymore. I know everybody says to give up my girlfriend. I am finding this very hard to do. She knows everything about me. She has cared more about who I really am, and in 3 months knows more about me than my wife of 16 years. Including all the info on my CMT disease. For many years I have lived with almost no love and care from my wife. She even admits that. Now all of a sudden she is awakened by the moves I have made to start a divorce from her. She says now that she wants to change, but there are "no gaurentees in life". Now with all that in mind... Why should I intentionally hurt the one person who has shown any love or care for me in all these years!? For the record, I stated to my family and friends that I would never be able to even love again let alone get married. Thats how bad it got for me. Now I'm supposed to basically cut my heart out for the sake of a woman who has treated me this poorly for so long. I am really struggling with that. And as far as her rejecting me due to my illness? She herself has the possibility of having the gene that causes MS. So there is little chance that this will be the case. If you can't tell, I am being brutally honest here. I am sorry if I'm coming off harshly, I am just emphatic about this. As far as the question about me leaving this past weekend being an indicator of weather or not I am concerned about me kids... It has no bearing. I have been told by her that she won't leave, and I have nowhere to go with 2 kids. I MEAN NOWHERE. And my wife knows that. I regret not filing a PFA immediatly when this all happened. I was trying to be kind and gentle with her about this. Plus it was around the holidays and my daughters birthday. I didn't want them to associate the holidays with this mess. She has now taught me a new lesson... To be ruthless instead of compassionate! And you want to know a new level she has taken? While I was away, she broke into my account on the computer. She took my password away and told me she wasn't going to let me on it anymore. She will tell you that she wasn't really going to do that, but she wouldn't let me access it and made me turn my head so I wouldn't see the new password. Last time I checked, invasion of privacy is a crime. She says she recreated my account now, but still hasn't given me the password.

I'm sorry, I will answer the rest tomorrow from work again. I have an appointment to go to tonight. I look forward to reading you reply.