Wow, AMAZING. It's remarkable to me that the gene was just discovered in September, and OW has already been tested and knows that she has it. These OW are always on top of EVERYTHING.

A4A,

Thank you for coming back to MB. I'll begin with the answers you gave me to my last post, the ones you did answer, and wait on the others for now, 'k?

"I don't know why except that it seems that the less I get, the more I think about it." I can't emphasize enough how important it is to know why you do what you do. How it feeds you--there's no one answer. Probably many variables are part of why sex is so critical to you. You have to dig inside yourself for those answers. Be a self-sleuth and ask, how you fantasize, when (what feelings occur before and after), what it is--real people...their type, how you make them act in your head. For a road map, look to the emotional needs questionnaires...is admiration, appreciation, acceptance, security, etc. part of the fantasy? Part of SF? How does it feed you. Only you can say.

"The stress and such in this marriage has really taken it's toll. I am to the point that I just can't take getting hurt anymore."

If you want to feel your true power, you would say, "I felt extremely pressured and stressed in my marriage. Instead of facing conflict, I tried to avoid it, wait it out, let it wear down and instead, I feel worn down. I fear more pain, both in causing it and receiving it." Your actions in this marriage, in your life, are as important as your wife's. Your choices, separate from the A's, are critical to why you feel and view your life as you do today. You know this, inside. I'm asking you to acknowledge it so that you can feel not just the guilt (which rides you), but the power of your own choices. Then you have the freedom to make better choices today.

"When we got married, I was a very strong "Born again Christian". At this point I don't even see myself as a christian at all." Here, own your power over yourself. "I once was a strong christian and now, I feel like I've lost my faith or I'm just lost." Your spirituality is as important as your sexuality, emotionality, mentality and physicality. You seem to be aware of your challenges in all of these areas.

Am I understanding you incorrectly by these statements...that you feel as though it was the marriage that took these things away from you? You were neglected, robbed, and are now a different person...your marriage eroded you somehow?

I read about your affair partner. Someone else can address that for now. I want you to focus not on your current choices but on your past ones to see the perspective pattern you have that only you can change.

I know that you recognize you are in a fog--the WS fog is a true thing. That's why you were holding up your choices, because you knew you had distorted thinking. I don't see that acknowledgement now in your post.

"For many years I have lived with almost no love and care from my wife. She even admits that."

Read that again..."For many years I have not felt loved or cared for by my wife. I have blamed her for that and she admits to not demonstrating her love for me. It's her fault." There are a few parts to feeling loved--recognizing you are lovable for your being, not your doing; recognizing the ways others demonstrate their love for you; and actively loving someone. Did you do that in the last ten years of your marriage, consistently? Actively demonstrate your love in the face of rejection, abuse and helplessness? Do you believe there is something unlovable, defective about you that you would stay with an unloving, abusive woman? Did you know and read your wife's love language and communicate the best ways you feel loved, appreciating and understanding the ways she feels loved?

This is not me blaming you--it is part of your future with darling gf (no apology for the sarcasm here, I physically hurt over you calling her that and your words about this fantasy you're endeavoring to make real)...hear me, your future with anyone will end up just as you are with your wife, guaranteed, because you can't own your part of your life.

Anyone.

I said it before and it is the biggest truth I've learned. People aren't replaceable. "The one" for you is your wife. She is the one willing to grow, change and bloom with you, after all the fertilizer you've dumped on her and her on you. Miss Fantasy would not! No one will. They have not loved you for 16 years! She doesn't love you now. It's false. Like the self you are with her. Like the fog--you are on the drug trip of getting all your needs met in spades by a stranger.

"Why should I intentionally hurt the one person who has shown any love or care for me in all these years!?"

Because you're really good at hurting the one you love. You're expert and leave no bruises. Until you learn why you beat your wife, you will beat anyone else in the same ways.

I truly believe you don't want to be this abuser anymore. I believe you want to be a great father, beloved husband and strong man. You feel lost, confused and very, very angry.

"Now I'm supposed to basically cut my heart out for the sake of a woman who has treated me this poorly for so long. I am really struggling with that." You have always struggled with sacrifice. You cannot sacrifice even for yourself, only someone else. That's your modis operandi. Want to change that? Want to have supreme control over your actions, great feelings, solid self-esteem and rock security? You won't get there from here. That's why everyone (people who know you, have loved you longer, tell you to stop taking this drug).

What I am asking is not cutting your own heart out--but giving that woman, your wife, finally, your heart. Learning how to commit to a marriage, where the boundaries are, learning the real meaning of honor and respect for a marriage, and finding your power, both to protect and be protected. I'm not asking you to rewrite the past (though, given your affair status, why isn't anyone going...duh...is beyond me in regards to your accuracy. I know this is what you feel authenitically right now...otherwise, you couldn't be an adulterer. I get that).

"If you can't tell, I am being brutally honest here. I am sorry if I'm coming off harshly, I am just emphatic about this. As far as the question about me leaving this past weekend being an indicator of weather or not I am concerned about me kids... It has no bearing."

I can tell you are shouting your pain, your truth and desperately wanting me to give you answers that do not cause more pain, more guilt, more shame or do you more harm. I know you are being as honest with me as with yourself, and that counts. It really does.

As for leaving your kids with the wife you claim to fear...well, it has bearing. In court, with protective services, with every non-affaired person on the planet. Yes, A4A. I hear that it doesn't mean what you want it to mean...that you put yourself before the children, your needs, your desires, your fantasy before their safety. I know that you don't fear your wife really hurting them--just more of that emotional erosion you've experienced...just enough to justify you divorcing, but not enough to curb your style.

That is what I hear.

And I understand--it's your turn, your entitlement to a life without pain, space without fear (except that nagging one about you doing something incredibly wrong); you want that high and all the years of low mandate you get it. I do understand that thorougly. You're reacting all to feelings, making your choices based on feelings. If feelings create you, they will destroy you, too. I want you to stop being a slave to yourself. I want to lead you to freedom and give you back your autonomy, where feelings are informative, not directions.

You are smarter than this. You know more from your experiences. I believe in you. Not because it's flattering or what your gdf (yes, I cursed) would feed you. I really do because you're here. You are fighting your two selves and one of them is getting you here, within range of truth and not murkey self-deception. When do you begin counseling for yourself?

"I have been told by her that she won't leave, and I have nowhere to go with 2 kids. I MEAN NOWHERE. And my wife knows that. I regret not filing a PFA immediatly when this all happened. I was trying to be kind and gentle with her about this. Plus it was around the holidays and my daughters birthday. I didn't want them to associate the holidays with this mess."

I quote you here to really let me you see how convoluted your rationale has gotten...how much the layers of deceit have cost you your own truth--I read that there are many excuses why I left for the weekend, but have not taken my children to safety...because I can't, my wife won't let me, I have nowhere to go, because I'm a kind and gentle man, because I want my terrified daughters to have nice holidays and birthdays with the mother they fear, and because I control my daughters' memories and feelings."

Here's ownership "I am not afraid of my wife. I know my children are not afraid of their mother because I have taught them that she is the problem and how to manipulate her. I am severely angry at my wife for not being who I want her to be and my children understand this. My family doesn't deal in truth but we excel in fantasies. I control my finances, but cannot afford to ask the church for lodging for my family's safety--nor the government, friends or extended family. I fear being laughed at if I'm wrong. I'm afraid of being ridiculed by others for taking drastic action where they might not have. I fear, therefore I stay."

Say it--you want all the fear and pain to end but you take the same actions that led to them in the first place and wonder why it doesn't stop.

"I was away, she broke into my account on the computer. She took my password away and told me she wasn't going to let me on it anymore. She will tell you that she wasn't really going to do that, but she wouldn't let me access it and made me turn my head so I wouldn't see the new password. Last time I checked, invasion of privacy is a crime. She says she recreated my account now, but still hasn't given me the password."

You are saying your wife has abused with her power again. She makes you turn your head. She makes you have no access. You believe that you have privacy in a marriage.

Want to reassess any of those beliefs?

I look forward to your reply to the rest of my questions. Please note that what you answer first is usually what's most important to you: sex, affair, spiritual concerns, wife's fault, Affair partner (she's fourth); justification for destructive actions, justification for self-destructive actions, and receiving more abuse (abuse of privacy).

You are being very honest on communicating. Part of that is listening--please read with that open mind and only look at yourself...is this who you thought you were? Am I getting a solid image of this man?

LA

Believer...

I really needed the broad grin I got from reading your post. Thank you!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Believer, How unbelievably insensitive you are. You as well LA. Her mother has an advanced case of MS. It has been suspected for years that this was a genetic problem. Yes, she knows she is at risk! As you said about me in my wifes thread " you lost a little credibility here". (paraphrased)

Well, we're even now. My apologies. Of course she would get tested if their is MS in the family. Please forgive me. It was very insensitive.

LA, Now back to all this. I answer your notes in order of how you write them for the most part. That is how I organize so I don't forget to answer something. It has nothing to do with what I hold higher.

By the way, accusing me of physical abuse of my wife is reprehensable. I HAVE NEVER LAID A HAND ON HER! NEVER RAISED A HAND TO HER! NEVER EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT LAYING A HAND ON HER! I HAVE NEVER BEEN VIOLENT WITH HER IN ANY WAY! I'm sorry if you hear me yelling here. I AM!

You seem to want me to own this entire mess. I don't believe I am in a "fog" as you say. You are looking at this from the one angle that you can... The woman who is cheated on. You can't see the other side, can you? I'm hearing you say... You stupid ******, don't you know this hurts me. Nothing I've done warrants this. You are supposed to love me no matter what I do to you. So get back here and work this out. There will be no happiness in life without me.

You are speaking to me out of your own hurt and view point. You just can't see that this is a two way street. And if you haven't noticed, my wife has stopped posting. She has been advised by the church that you are wrong about her domestic violence and that she should stay at the house. This is exactly what she always does. She points out and uses the information that is in her favor and dismisses that wich she doesn't want to believe or doesn't fit with what she wants. She was all to happy to point me to this web site for help. She even says she wants to use the principles here in our marrisge, but will not follow the advise when it doesn't suit her. If that remains the case then there is nothing further to discuss. All that says to me is... Everything is on her terms and in her way. This means walking right back into the fire for me. "Burn me once-shame on you. Burn me twice shame on me" And God knows that I've tried over and over again to make this work. I do accept CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I have always been open to that. But don't berate and insult me, it will get us nowhere.

You should do a study on the male sex drive. Men actually have a NEED for release. The mind can enhance this need, but it doesn't cause the need.

Sex for me is a sharing of myself with somebody I love. I have never been about casual sex. The times that I tried just frustrate me. When I laid down with my wife, it meant many things to me. Closeness with her, acceptance from her and of her. An act of love that I never wanted to share with anyone else. Yes, that is the truth. Believe it or not I am a very dedicated and loyal man. It took alot for this to happen. I found myself desperate for many years. I tried talking to her, suggested counceling, brought flowers to her, treated her with respect, talked about her with respect. If you want proof I could even give you some names and numbers to call. I used to talk som highly of my marriage. Even when things weren't going well. I have two friends who knew everything about us a few years back. They are both married and they and thier wives are actually the God parents of our children. The men at one point said to me"You have the patience of Job, if my wife treated me the way yours does, she would have had her walking papers long ago". THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE STUFF THEY NOTICED, NOT ANYTHING THAT I SAID. These two guys are opposed to divorcing unless it's nessessary. And they wouldn't hesitate to tell me when I am wrong either. Her family as well as mine also noticed the same behaviors. So you see, I can't be all wrong here. There was a driving force that caused this. The people who have known us well seem to think I wasn't the problem here. So what makes you think that I am?

I am sorry that you had to edure that kind of abuse, it's just wrong! Let me ask you a question though... Would have rather had your Dad stay with her inspite of that abuse, or leave her for your protection? That is a valid question here. Answer it honestly.

Yes, I know that an affair would be a catalyst for a reaction like that. But thats not what she reacted to. My lawyer said the kids had to be put in school because we were breaking the law. My wife was not teaching them at all (Julieco). It wasn't a matter of me not being able to see thier progress. So, when I began to move on that advise, she freaked out. The so called affair at the time was just talking on the phone. You see, she lives in RI. And she knew nothing about it at the time (Julieco). I do believe others can push you (not force you) to do things that you normally wouldn't.

Let me be honest how I feel right now about her. I am angry as ****** at her. It will take alot of time for that to go away.

Believer, Forgiven and forgotten>

"Believer, How unbelievably insensitive you are. You as well LA."

Please don't say I am insensitive. I was insensitive. I made an assumption. That doesn't mean you can define me as an insensitive person.

A4A...The way it looks to us is just like believer supposed. We were wrong. However, you saying we are insensitive to another's plight is laughable as well. You are causing incredible pain right now, and it's progressive, but it has a cure. You want us to be sensitive to a woman who is aiding you in doing that. I do not rejoice in her mother's suffering, no more than I do in your own.

And we know how much OPs can lie as they are under self-delusion as well. Humans usually do not do evil gladly. That's my belief.

Believer and I have experienced so much of A babble, conjuring with soul mates and saints, that we assumed and we were wrong. You have her apology and now my own. Notice the intent is to break through the fog, to find a point of leverage for you to see from our perspective, clearly, without the automatic interference. Yet, we know there's no one point we can make that will do that.

LA

LA, I accept your appology. I understand your intent. Please understand that I was not trying to define you, just point out the insensitivity. That is all. I appologize for expressing myself badly.

You will probably see that I used your tactics in my last post. I did this to try and get you to see mine as well. Both perspectives are valid and need consideration.

I did not say you physically abused your wife. I was talking about other abuse.

You said you’re answering in order of my post. You missed a step:

“But you were. How long? How many? Truth time.”

“You seem to want me to own this entire mess.” I wanted to see if you would own your part of this situation. I understand that you felt I was attempting to blame you for all of it. I wanted you to tell me what you did to get to this stage. What choices you made.

“I don't believe I am in a "fog" as you say.” You said in an earlier post that you knew you were not thinking clearly about your history and your present. That you wanted to not make this decision, to end the marriage, because you felt influenced. That’s the fog I was speaking of; undue influence of your affair.

“You are looking at this from the one angle that you can... The woman who is cheated on. You can't see the other side, can you?” First, see abuse--you telling me not what you believe or how you feel, but telling me what I am doing and why I'm doing it. And no, I’m not speaking to you from one angle. I know affairs from both ends. I know the fog intimately. My sig line says I cheated too—in fact, I was a serial cheater.

“I'm hearing you say... You stupid ******, don't you know this hurts me. Nothing I've done warrants this. You are supposed to love me no matter what I do to you. So get back here and work this out. There will be no happiness in life without me.”

This is why I post to you. This kind of honesty, telling me what you’re hearing is the sight of salvation for me. Wow. I admire you for this. You are brave. You shared that voice in your head that rides humans into the ground. That voice that says what we expect to hear. I didn’t say that. What I didn’t mention was happiness at all. I did not condone her abuse of you. I did not say marriage at all costs.

You are not stupid nor a coward. You’ve proven that. What you feel—the pain, anger and despair--are real. You are feeling them.

“You are speaking to me out of your own hurt and view point. You just can't see that this is a two way street. And if you haven't noticed, my wife has stopped posting. She has been advised by the church that you are wrong about her domestic violence and that she should stay at the house. This is exactly what she always does. She points out and uses the information that is in her favor and dismisses that wich she doesn't want to believe or doesn't fit with what she wants.”

The first sentence is a disrespectful judgment—you are telling me why I’m saying these things to you and your wife. I have told you that I’m posting to you both because I have been where you are and am not now. I know that two-way street because I saw my H’s anguish and knew my own. Please don’t tell me what I can’t see. That’s the abuse I am speaking of—you are defining me and telling me what I’m doing and who I am. I believe that’s because this was done to you so much in your life that you don’t understand how damaging it is.

Your wife informed you that the church advised her against leaving, that Star’s diagnosis of domestic violence was incorrect and your wife chose not to leave the house. You believe that she uses authority and “help” to match her own agenda. You believe she has done this repeatedly.

Can you see the difference here?

“All that says to me is... Everything is on her terms and in her way. This means walking right back into the fire for me. "Burn me once-shame on you. Burn me twice shame on me" And God knows that I've tried over and over again to make this work. I do accept CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I have always been open to that. But don't berate and insult me, it will get us nowhere.”

You believe that she wants everything on her terms. Because you believe that, you feel like it will be walking right back into being burned and you don’t want to do that. You do not want to shame yourself. You are open to a certain type of criticism, that which you believe is constructive, and feel attacked, berated and insulted by me.

Is that correct?

“You should do a study on the male sex drive. Men actually have a NEED for release. The mind can enhance this need, but it doesn't cause the need.” You believe that you are driven by your body, your testosterone, yet you believe that your mind does have influence. Would you look up “AskMe” posts and "JayeMathisen"’s? They are men. Maybe they can be a more credible source for you. I did not question your emotional need or ask if it was valid. What I asked you was what does sex represent to you—and you said you didn’t know (see below). Harley says it is an emotional need, therefore having an emotional basis as well as a physical one. He’s a guy. I’m not.

I do know intense sexual craving, to the level of distraction. Not from hormones, not from testosterone. I know it from reaching the bottom of my lovebank and turning to an affair. There’s my reference.

“Sex for me is a sharing of myself with somebody I love.”

I believe you. I believe that your sex drive is an integral part of you—an emotional need. “Closeness with her, acceptance from her and of her.” I believe you miss this closeness and especially the acceptance from her and of her very much. I believe you got to where I got…that ****** where I felt that everything about myself was rejected, distanced and punished, too. I was feeling like not only was I no longer loved and accepted, but that I was my H’s enemy. Life got to be a mess and I chose to act at rather than act. I felt such anger at the loss of intimacy and trust; my best-friend-deserted-me feeling. When I would voice my pain, I saw my H deny it, turn away from it, disregard it. I did not consider how I voiced my pain, what part was mine and what I could do about it. I only looked to my H to fix the problem because HE was the problem in my mind.

“If you want proof I could even give you some names and numbers to call. I used to talk som highly of my marriage. Even when things weren't going well.”

Do you not think I don’t believe what you’re saying? Is it because I’ve said I suspect in the fog you’re re-writing history? I believe you. I believe that this is what it felt like in your marriage to you. No question. And that what you're saying is your truth right now, also. I believe you.

Why did you lie about your marriage to others when your wife wasn’t meeting your needs?

I see you have solid male friends who gave you a caring heads up—you were being abused and they saw it, not just from your perspective. You weren’t being hit with hands—but words and actions. When this occurred before, you said “No more or else!” It was invisible, crazy-making abuse and did you not understand that it was the same thing? Had you seen it for what it was, would you have said stop before your affairs? Would you have said it for yourself?

That’s where I’m going with you, A4A. How much do you truly love yourself and what boundaries are you worth?

“The people who have known us well seem to think I wasn't the problem here.” Now this I have to say I don’t believe. I believe that is what you hear when they give their opinion. Are you saying that they say your wife is the total problem in your marriage, that you have no part in it?

“I am sorry that you had to edure that kind of abuse, it's just wrong! Let me ask you a question though... Would have rather had your Dad stay with her inspite of that abuse, or leave her for your protection? That is a valid question here. Answer it honestly.” My dad had his part—he was an alcoholic serial cheater. He abused my stepmom with withdrawal, silence, degradation, assumptions, mind-reading and took away her reality. She did a lot of that stuff right back. So did my first mother.

You’ve helped me remember in a new light something else they did—speaking of leaving. Before their second year married was out, they had quite a row (full of LBs) with both my sister and me present. My stepmom said they were divorcing and which parent did we want to go with? They stood in the kitchen, a few feet opposite each other. Both of them were sobbing angry tears, arms folded across heaving chests, staring at us. I felt trapped with challenge. My mother felt broken to me, but competent—a saint under attack. My father looked pitiful, needy and lost. I don’t remember who my sister went to, but she went first, and I think it was to my father’s side. I did, too, because I needed him, the only parent I’d had for all of my nine years. I felt like a betrayer. He put a hand on my shoulder. It was shaking.

Sophie’s choice, in reverse. Same consequences. I was blamed for being disloyal when they didn’t divorce (they are still married). She has said in her times of distress that if it hadn’t been for us girls, she would have left and had a good life. Double responsibility. I carried that a long time. Thanks to you and your wife, I laid that one down.

I believe divorce is like that, many times. Two people in high distress, so desperate to feel loved again that they ask for proof, demonstration, and forget that their part is that they couldn’t feel loved because of all the layers of resentments, scorecards, anger and pain weighing it down to nothing. Harley does the love bank example and the layers as withdrawals, going desperately into the red. The love may be there, but you can’t feel it anymore and you won’t accept the deposits.

“My lawyer said the kids had to be put in school because we were breaking the law. My wife was not teaching them at all (Julieco). It wasn't a matter of me not being able to see thier progress. So, when I began to move on that advise, she freaked out.”

I am not attacking you, but I would like to know you are telling me your real truth here. How long did you believe that your wife was not home schooling adequately to meet state standards before you took action? When you began to move on that, how long between the advice of your lawyer (and is that your divorce lawyer you consulted?) and when you took action?

“The so called affair at the time was just talking on the phone. You see, she lives in RI. And she knew nothing about it at the time (Julieco). I do believe others can push you (not force you) to do things that you normally wouldn't.”

I hear you saying that what your wife felt, knowing something was off, was not why she freaked out. You don’t believe that she intuited your distance and manner and reacted to the affair. What did you want us to know by saying that? That your wife is lying? That you believe she was only reacting to you not agreeing with her terms?

You believe others can push but not force you to do things. Where’s the choice? If someone physically pushes me, I have an immediate choice. I also may have an automatic reaction—which is a choice I’ve made ahead of time, because it is how I allow myself to react to a push.

“The so called affair at the time was just talking on the phone” says you no longer believe you’re adulterer. You called it an emotional affair. Is that still true or are you saying it isn’t? At the time? So are you saying you are now a wayward spouse fully, to your standard, because you made it physical?

Yes, I’m asking for outrageous, radical honesty. I see it in you in flashes. I believe you are fully capable of owning your stuff. Are you going to answer the questions you skipped?

LA

P.S. I see your current post as I'm getting ready to post. I understand your intent was not to define me. Do you realize that your words are important and though your intent was not to, you did? I don't require your apology. Staying conscious of doing this to others who don't understand how abusive it is leaves them feeling violated without a weapon. I know you can change that. I believe you want to.

OK, Here we go. I have had two affairs. My wife knows of them both. This is the longest one at 3 months.

I had to be sure about the abuse thing. You were making alot of physical references and that was raising red flags for me. I realize there is a very liberal definition of abuse here, but that scared me.

I never read your profile so I didn't know of the affairs you had. Let me ask you this... In all the affairs you had, did you ever fall in love with one of them?

You are right, I am in alot of pain. This is an agonizing situation for me. At this point I can tell you that the OW and I are not in touch. You will not believe how this has affected me. It feels like I akm going against every fiber in my body. I feel despair, loneliness, depressed, anxiouse, a real fear that I have just made the biggest mistake in my life. You see, we actually fell in love. We got really close. I know you probably think thats crazy. You probably don't think it's real. But it is my reality.
I don't even know if I can stay with this marriage yet. So I guess I will see where my heart really is at this point.

I am sorry again for defining you. I am trying to see this behavior before I do it. But I think you are right about the fact that it has been commonplace for me all my life.

Yes, I see the difference in the way they are stated. I do honestly believe that she uses authority and help to match her agenda. I talked to her again last night about the advise on this site in regards to DV. She stated that she doesn't believe that it will ever happen again and that her personal therapist is the only one that can tell her she has to leave. Of course, she is the only one with access to this therapist. See the danger here? But again she stated that she wants to use the information and advise on this site to improve our marriage. Maybe it's just me, but if I trust the advise of a professional, I listen to all of the advise. I can't pick and choose what fits my way of thinking. It is her way of thinking that brought this on in the first place.

Yes, I see this as very risky for me. To walk back into a situation like this. When I contacted a lawyer, I had had enough of this. I was finished with this relationship. It was also at that point that I met someone who became my affair partner. I was not crying out for help anymore. I was not looking for restoration or reconciliation. I don't even feel guilty about this. That may sound harsh, but it's the truth. This is what I think may be a misconception here. I am now under the impression that you think the affair was going to be in addition to the marriage. That was not it at all. My heart was totally turned away at that point. The decision to see someone else was me moving on. It was not seeing someone else that caused me to move on.

See the difference here?

That is why I have been stuck here for so long. And the whole situation has angered and frusrated me to no end. I prayed for a long time to see change in my wife and myself. (yes myself too). I saw no change in her, and she frustrated the changes I tried to make. I asked her about this the other day. She said she fought Gods attempts to adjust her thoughts and actions. I got to the breaking point. Now that I walked away. (yes, I did it, I walked away)! She realized what was happening and woke up. Now she wants me to just turn around and drop everything to try again because she is finally ready. I asked her if that was because she had a change of heart or is she just affraid of the changes coming. She said "both, but she now knows she can survive if she has to". That is her reality according to her. I see her motivations as mixed at best. That is my reality.

At times, yes, I do feel berated and insulted by the things you say here. That is probably not your intention, but it's how I see it.

You are right about the rejection. That rejection for me has gone to such a level I don't know if I ever want to be with her again. If you asked me for a definite answer at this moment, I would say... "no, I never want to be with her again". That is how far this has gone for me. I FEEL NOTHING FOR HER AT ALL.

I kept talking highly of my marriage because I didn't want to give up. I deluded myself so that I wouldn't give up. It was an effort to stay in the game.

It was both physical and psychological abuse. I actually said stop or else in response to the physical end of the abuse. I guess I never saw the psychological end as the same thing. Yes, I actually did say things like that before the affairs. It fell on deaf ears.

I really don't know how much I love myself. But I am worth saying good-bye to this marriage for the sake of myself. Maybe that answers the question.

I am not saying that they didn't see anything I was doing wrong. I am just giving what they said to me that time. They always spoke into both sides.

I am actually glad that something good came out of this for you. There is always something that can be learned in every situation.

I knew for some time that she wasn't. I kept asking the girls what they were learning, they said "nothing, mommy stays on the computer all day". I kept talking to my wife about it, but it fell on deaf ears. See the pattern? So I finally had to act for their protection. And yes, it is for them. I have been constantly asked if I am doing this for them or is it really for me. Yes, it is for me too. As far as how long it took after the advise... about 24 hours. Yes, it was the divorce lawyer. Were her motives mixed when she told me to do it?... probably. But the truth of it is, at the end of the day, she is right! If I didn't act I was just as liable as she is.

No I'm not saying she didn't feel something else. The affair had just been in it's infancy. We weren't even talking on the phone all that much.I really believe when she felt something off, it was my resolve to follow the lawyers advise. That was the biggest player on the field at the time. The OW really wasn't a major factor in my life at that point. As I said previousely, the affair came about after I had already moved on in my heart.

I am not saying there was no choice when pushed. All I am saying is it happens. Of course I made the choice to have an affair, but I am also saying I wouldn't have if the circumstances were not so severe. I know that for a fact!

No, your right, emotional affairs are the same as physical ones.

Did I skip more than one question? If I did, it was unintentional. These posts are long, and it's easy to miss things. Thats why I try to answer in order. It doesn't mean I not capable of missing something.

You have the way I feel in full view right now. I don't know how else to explain it. I actually think this is helping me figure out what I really need to do. I am beginning to see what is best for me in all this. But we'll see for sure as time goes on here.

A4A

I'm sorry I thought you were dodging my direct question about your affairs. You do very well to answer my questions. I think that takes guts, time and intensity.

Two issues I want to concentrate on...honesty and fear.

You yelled at me and then you said, "I had to be sure about the abuse thing..." It seemed to rattle you deeply to believe I was accusing you of physically hurting your wife. It got down to something in you that you would not tolerate in yourself. It hit a fear point within you.

And you responded violently to what you perceived as an invalid accusation.

I don't find a liberal definition of abuse here on MB. I have one myself. The book your wife said she put on hold at the library? The Verbally Abusive Relationship? That's the one that resonated with me. Did you get it yet?

Did I fall in love with my affair partners? No. I fell in love with the feelings I got from my affairs. At the time, I would have told you differently. In the middle of them, I would have told you they were my heart--all of me. Each time. Long distance ones. The only in-person one, well, I got the same high for awhile, but at the point I said the ILY, I said it to justify why I was doing such damage...if not for love, then it would have been evil. And I couldn't do evil.

The most ironic part of an affair to me was that in it, I would make love the verb that it is--I would do all the things to demonstrate my love, speaking loudly in its languages, and receive such validation and joy from doing so, not banking on the results (which were always good ones). That's the crux of Harley's guide--had I done that in my marriage, I wouldn't have chosen to cheat.

Now I have a marriage that is proof of that theorem. It's true. All the rejection and distance that fed my entitlement isn't there...not because my H is miraculously cured, but because I taught myself to see what really was rejection and what wasn't; and when the distance encroaches, that I can say in a loving manner, "I feel distance. What's up?" The distance no longer lasts and no longer feels like punishment. Funny how I don't notice distance when it's gone.

And since I'm the one who makes resentment, I don't do that which I resent--give too much, take too much. I'm careful to look at what I do so that I don't feel resentful.

I do understand your agony at no contact. Withdrawal is ******. So surprisingly painful; it curled my gut on one occasion. It does pass. The longer you go without the drug, the better you breathe, more clearly you think and the better you like yourself. I had to go through the anger, too, when I stopped thinking of the OP as an innocent. I felt I did it all (I'm so powerful, ain't I?), duped OP into the affair and then wrecked their lives, too. Added to the anguish.

When I finally gave OP the respect they deserved, I was angry--at every supportive sentence they uttered, tearing my H down, even while they absolved me of my own responsibility. Their manipulative words and actions, and even the "only for you would I do this" kinda lies, I fell for. Dual anger--outward and inward. They were my partner in a terrible crime. That anger that surfaces after sanity returns, well, that helps and hurts in its own way. They did what they did and so did I. They were not duped, not saints, not saviors; but perpetrators and co-conspirators. None of them were married or involved with anyone.

This is the honesty I see in your post:

"But it is my reality."

"Yes, I see this as very risky for me. To walk back into a situation like this."

"I was not crying out for help anymore. I was not looking for restoration or reconciliation. I don't even feel guilty about this."

"I deluded myself so that I wouldn't give up."

The last one says the most to me. You've practiced self delusion for the "good" you believe it can do. Would you be willingly to consider that practicing delusion can lead to being so good at it you can't tell the difference? Could that be what you're sensing in yourself as you struggle to make this decision?

Risky for you. I understand that perspective. Will you also consider your daughters? I'm not attempting a heartstring moment. I'm remembering know my father was cheating on my mother as young as six years old. I didn't know what cheating was, per se, but I knew that Daddy treated other women like he treated my mother. Only better, mostly. Your daughters understand when Daddy withdraws. I believe they might believe it is because of something they did. You are their conspirator against Mommy when she behaves badly. You are the enemy when they see Mommy cry. They feel torn in two, choosing back and forth, wanting both, betraying both. What do you really want for them? They are the only innocents in your life.

This is where I lose that sense of honesty: "That is why I have been stuck here for so long." In this paragraph, you slip back with the first sentence. You direct your concern to your wife, full of DJ's, and I have to tell you--if you are asking your wife to give you a reason to stay, you are setting her up to be the fall guy. You're feeling in love with another person and the only way to not be eaten alive with guilt is to keep pointing at your wife. She can't win your love, say the perfect words or heal you. Only you can do that. You're not comparing fruit. You're choosing your life.

You are married. Your heart, your feet, either walking away does not end the marriage. A signed decree does. Anything before is an affair. Please consider that in your decision. And after a marriage ends, the most reasonable and healthy choice for yourself is to not be involved with anyone until you heal.

You didn't answer my repeated prediction that you will enter another relationship like this one. Do you believe that?

"I prayed for a long time to see change in my wife and myself. (yes myself too)." What changes were you guided to make in yourself?

"Yes, I actually did say things like that before the affairs. It fell on deaf ears." This is a critical part, A4A...I hear you blaming her because you didn't enforce your boundaries. You were stuck because she did not comply with your request this time, as she had done before. Do you see your part? I believe this was different because you trade abuse for abuse. This isn't unusual at all. Being defensive is a natural reaction. We learn it in childhood. So, you couldn't enforce your boundary and end your marriage because you were treating her badly right back. That guilt kept you from taking action to back up your words. You drew a line and stepped over it.

Again, not attacking here. I'm emphasizing not blame but recognition. Awareness is what you take with you. And what you leave behind. It's not a clean getaway.

I do not intend to berate, insult or degrade. My dearest wish is for you to not see this as a choice between more torment and bliss. My intention is to be direct and honest. No tricks, no misrepresentations. Causes and consequences--an informed choice.

"If I didn't act I was just as liable as she is." You were aware of the consequences of inaction. Expand that to other things...have you been this way all your life? A lot of times doing nothing mitigated your blame, sometimes shame, pacified and delayed conflict? Have you been looking to be blameless? Do you take sudden action when the inaction mounts over time like growing concrete on your back?

I'm not mocking or chastising. It's a sincere question. One of the biggest draws for me to an affair partner was the clean slate. They didn't know anything about me but what they saw and heard from me. They didn't live through my ugly parts, be the brunt of my rage and insecurities. They were new and so was I; hence the bubble part. Just like the fusion when you first met your wife; only this time, you have a wife at home who has seen all your pores. And she stayed with you.

Did you read where you said the same words my H used? To take it further, he also said, "I don't love you and I don't want to love you again."

His anger of all the rejection, guilt, shame, resentment piled over...well, I've said it before. Today, he says daily, for the first time in our marriage, the ILY; he says it joyfully, with a laughing tone, like a high. I didn't create this. I didn't fix a problem and now he's happy. He fixed him and I fixed me. We did it while staying married. I didn't make mine dependent on him (okay, several times I tried and then regrouped); and he doesn't make it dependent on me. We catch ourselves slipping back. We hold steady, and then move a little more forward.

We are undoing our layers of crap, bit by bit, and it is not drudgery and heartache. It's an excavation, holding hands, carefully, respectfully. I look forward to all the years of discovery ahead of us. It's real. It's our life.

And we began by understanding and accepting that our feelings were in horrible shape. And after we had moved on in our hearts. Gratitude to God for waking me up to acting on my beliefs and not my feelings because they were so damaged.

LA

I find the way you describe your affairs interesting.By what you are saying it sounds like you were the one seeking the affair. Is that the case? If it were I understand what you are saying.

In my case I was not the seeker. I was approached by her. I wasn't looking for then affair, it fell in my lap. I can't say she was innocent, she knew I was married. I met her on a business trip. During the opening of the meeting you go through introductions. During this intro. I told them I was married for 16 years and had two wonderful children. There must have been some kind of clue that said to her I wasn't happy in my marriage. We actually didn't talk much about it. But I know that before we began to have any seriouse connection, she said she wanted to be sure it was over between me and my wife. As I said previousely, it was over in my mind. That is when we began to get closer. I wasn't duping her and she wasn't duping me. Yes, you are right, it is still adultery if I am married. But I still don't feel guilty because I was already divorced in mind and spirit. The only hurdle left was the piece of paper making it OK in the eyes of the law. You think this relationship wasn't seriouse, don't you? You have no idea how close we were. We had actually started making plans for a future. Now I have hurt her badly. I will never forgive myself for that. Do you know that she actually advised me to make sure I had done everything I possibly could to make the marriage work. She has never said an ill word about my wife at all. She knows that I wanted custody and said she would be very good to my daughters. She used to be a nanny, she loves children. You should see the way she is with children. I have seen it and she's great. This woman is the exact opposite of everything I see in my wife, as it applies to children, housekeeping, the way she treats me, almost everything. The only flaw I can see at the moment is she fell for a married man... me. I know she's not perfect... no one is. So you see, it was different. She is not the seductive, evil doing, man stealing, lieing ****** everybody thinks she is. By every standard she was genuinely concerned about me and what I was doing. She said many times... "are you sure it's over? I don't want to get in the middle of something".

As far as entering another relationship like the one with my wife. I have seen many examples of both senarios. I have seen wonderful second marriages. I have also seen bad ones. It all comes down to lessons learned and the personality of the one you are with. If you make mistakes and a person reacts badly, it can take a bad turn. However, if you are with someone who can help you see what you are doing and work through it, you can have a great relationship. I do not believe you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that you did before.

The changes God led me to. He said to show your love. I did that by doing things for her. Bringing her flowers. Bearing with her in bad times. I tried to talk to her many times. When I did things for her, she found ways to get me to do more. When I brought her flowers, she said "that won't get me into bed with you". When I bore with her, she took it for granted. When I tried to talk to her, she wouldn't answer. After a while the pain became to strong and I pulled away. It is a survival instinct to do so.

I don't know about my decision not to divorce at that time. I know now that that may have been the best course of action. I think it's because she hadn't completely killed my love for her at that time. You see, I am a very, very patient person. I will put up with alot before I get fed up. The flip side to that is very apparent now. Once I finally do get fed up, it is virtually impossible to get me to reverse myself. When I come to a decision under these circumstances, it is usually final. It also had alot to do with my girls. My hesitation today is because of the same reason. I love them with everything that I am.

As far as my inaction. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. She said she was trying to get it done. I gave her the opportunity to do it. But yes, I sometimes delay my response when I shouldn't.

I can see the logic in a clean slate. Yes, it feels that way sometimes. But I think my wife didn't truely stay with me. In the house, yes. But she left me physically, emotionally, and spiritually. There was nothing but her presence in the household.

What happened in your marriage is a miricle. Nithing short of God stepping in and doing something. I guess we'll see whats in store for us. I am just having soooo much trouble changing my mind. I don't know if you can understand that or not. And nothing short of a miricle can change that. I am open to God doing a work. But it has not happened yet. He has not brought me to that point. If it happens, it will be him, not me.

"By every standard she was genuinely concerned about me and what I was doing. She said many times... "are you sure it's over? I don't want to get in the middle of something".

What a bunch of CRAP! She knew it wasn't over - you're married, guy. She DID get in the middle of something. This innocent act makes me want to PUKE.

"You think this relationship wasn't seriouse, don't you? You have no idea how close we were. We had actually started making plans for a future."

Serious as a heart attack. That's how I view all affairs. Have your read a lot of the threads here? They said the same thing. I had the same experience. Getting proposals of marriage while you are already in one the opposite for me (now)...it proves to me how much I was in a fantasy world. Making future plans while you're married. Just a piece of paper? Wow. Takes a long time to divorce, a thousand tears from your wife and children, a lot of real world finances, decisions, boxing, sorting and sorrow. A lot more than a piece of paper. Divorce proceedings are in court for the gravity of breaking apart whole lives. It ain't a carwash.

If you are suspecting that I take your affair lightly, I don't. If you believe I think you'd do something like this without being convinced you had a great reason. I don't. Affairs can't happen at all without the WS feeling incredible entitlement, fueled by resentment and a huge lack of respect. That's in Gimble's sigline.

Extremely serious. No other way for me to think of it.

"Do you know that she actually advised me to make sure I had done everything I possibly could to make the marriage work." Yes, I believe you. My H's OW kept saying, "Go back to your wife! You love your wife!" even while she spread her legs for him. But then, she also told him that she wouldn't have sex before marriage...and did on their third "date." That is one thing you can count on the OP for--covering their ends in the affair. "But I told him to try everything with his wife first, even while I was being his love!"

"The only flaw I can see at the moment is she fell for a married man... me." Own this. She knew you were married from the start. She didn't trip over you--she pursued you and gave herself permission to be an affair partner, knowingly, consciously. So did you. I thought you got this part. I understood you owned it early. If you did, why not respect her enough for her to own it?

"So you see, it was different. She is not the seductive, evil doing, man stealing, lieing ****** everybody thinks she is. By every standard she was genuinely concerned about me and what I was doing. She said many times... "are you sure it's over? I don't want to get in the middle of something".

I had to stop composing and spend time with H doing our communication exercise. I see that believer answered this portion of your post. Can you consider her saying this to absolve herself of guilt because she knows she's in the middle of your marriage, she has influence, and because she did not take herself out of the equation permanently, that she has/had the intent to be in the middle? This is what is meant when people say affairs are based on lies. You guys don't lie to each other--you each lie to yourselves. Truth: She wanted what she wanted when she wanted it (I'm having a difficult time with my tenses because I don't know true status from how you're writing...I believe past tense). You did too. That's the nasty part of withdrawal--not getting to feel better immediately, instantly. Knowing you're going to feel this sick for two more months makes you crave instant gratification back.

Almost like inside, you're saying, "Hey! I found the cure for my sickness and I'm not taking the medication? Get the cure! Fix this! Feel better NOW!" And just like real medicine, you're having no contact, draining a poison from your blood (too much of anything is poisonous), so that you can make a decision free and clear of the poison. Pain is not the sickness--it just feels like it.

I hear that you disagree with my prediction of another relationship being the same stuff different people. In part, I believe you're correct. It won't be the same. It will be worse. Not only will you have taken the quick fix, but you'll both know it and it will add another toxin into the mix. The guilt and shame remain on top of seeking out the external cure for your life. They quote 3% of affair relationships making it. I believe that's because they do begin with lies--just like her saying she doesn't want to get in the middle of something when she chose to do it. The lie you tell yourself that an affair fell into your lap and it's okay for a thousand reasons, but the first one is that you didn't go looking for it.

A4A, I'm not telling you your life. Your reality is greatly different for you right now. I'm telling you how you will feel and think in the future, drug free. Not just me, but several others I've read, in books, on MB, and have known in real life. People aren't replaceable. They just aren't. What attracted you to your wife in the first place will also be your undoing--if you let it. If you LEARN it, then it will be your most significant triumph. The true cure.

My heart does hurt for you--I remember. I'm not remaking the past. I'm there all over again--saying your words and believing your thoughts and feelings.

I was still looking to fix my life externally. Are you?

"The changes God led me to. He said to show your love. I did that by doing things for her. Bringing her flowers." God led you to show your love, demonstrate it for the joy in the act of doing so. You took that to mean that if I do this, I'll get this...and you didn't. Can you see the difference? God's not wrong, A4A. But he's easily misinterpreted. I did that a lot. I believe I still do. I pray, "Please take this pain away" and I feel better. He didn't take it from me like I wanted him to; now I really give it up to him. Surrender is different than relief.

God is working in your life right now. You're here, saying your truth--before your affair you wouldn't say it, and you might not have known you had the responsibility of doing so. God has me here answering you with an intent heart. I pray that I say what will reach you, reach your heart. Not to change your mind. I pray that your vision will be clear to see your heart honestly.

You say you have so much anger and resentment for your wife. Then you say she killed your love. Just between these two sentences, which one sounds like your truth? I'm sorry, but they both cannot be true. One you own and the other you don't. Anger is someone crossing your boundaries. It's healthy. All that you said and what you tried and what she did and then what you did pertains to boundaries you didn't even know you made. Resentment is what you create within yourself. Each time you did something and expected a good result and didn't get it, you gave yourself permission to feel pain, rejection and anger for someone else. Instead, the truth is that you can feel disappointment. Most times, we are told by God to check our expectations to begin with. He gave us all individuality and free will. He gave us the ultimate respect in saying, "You have to choose me." Your choice. He created you to have power and choice in each breath and beat. He did not give you power or choice over anyone else. No control. Why do you think he did that?

He only comes in by invitation, not demand, expectation, entitlement or birthright.

He's working in your wife's heart right now. She's getting her first glimpse of who she is and why she does what she does. She's clearing her vision even as she struggles with searing pain inside, a heap of guilt, remorse, anger, resentment and rejection a lifetime long.

He's asking no less of you.

Miracles happen. God can keep you from the rocks, but you have to row, sometimes, with all you are.

LA

(Those are my beliefs and I'm sticking to them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Still here for you.

LA

Hi again LA,
I have been just plugging along here. Nothing special has happened. I'm not going to actually answer everything in your post this time. I want to talk about God for a minute. I have to get an answer to a question that is plagueing me.

If God cared so much about this marriage, why did he wait until I had died inside to answer the prayers I had prayed for years?

You see, for about 14 of our years together I prayed and prayed for change. Not only in her, but in myself as well. I kept the "faith", so to speak, for about 13 of them. It has been said that I didn't try to help her. That I didn't care. That is as untrue as me saying my affair never happened. Now that I was hurt and rejected to the point of divorce, she seems to have had an apiphany. So now she is going to extrreme lengths to get control of the situation. Not realizing that she is doing more damage as she goes. Things like this...

She broke into my computer account, then divulged everything about this stuff to our friends.

She told our children last night about my affair in a very damaging way. Obviousely not taking thier feeling to heart.

She has told me "this marriage isn't over until I says it's over". Letting me see that the contoller in her is alive and well! Not the dieing person she says it is.

She also said last night that if I didn't do what she wants me to do, she would force me out of the house.

She also uses sleep deprivation to wear me down. She only wants to talk late at night. She says she doesn't want the girls to hear it. But they have been allowed to stay up to midnight or even later for quite some time. That was because I would go to bed at 8:30pm and she just let them run. So they hear it anyway. Thats why I believe she doesn't care about me, only herself. I have a job with very high responsibility. She is making it very hard to be competent doing it. She says the job doesn't matter as much as the relationship. In a way she is right, but careers that pay this well don't just fall in your lap. If I were to loose this job, I would be working several jobs and twice as many hours to try and make enough to live. Where would our time be then?

So which person is the real one? Is she really changing or is this just another chapter in the same old story? If you want a real answer to why I am having so much trouble re-entering this relationship it is this... I am affraid that all these indicators are right. As soon as I open up and recommit, I will be right back in this mess again. Starting at square one. This time alone and nowhere to go. I will have waited and lost my opportunity to get custody of my children. They will grow up learning to be just like her (they already are in many ways), just as she learned it from her mother. And in all that be financially destitute. She has already warned me that she will take me for all she can get if she gets custody.


She says I am pushing her away. I am to a point, but she is doing much more to that end than I am. If I am to come back around, it has to be my heart that gets me there. If I can't do it, then it is over. But one thing is for sure, I can't be forced!

"If God cared so much about this marriage, why did he wait until I had died inside to answer the prayers I had prayed for years?"

What I believe is that God didn't wait; he was giving opportunities and messages all along. He was answering your prayers in ways that were different than you wanted. I believe that, because that was my experience.

I know God respects us. He loves us, made the ultimate sacrfice for us. He does not presume or force. He works diligently to answer the heart of our prayers. What did you pray to change in yourself, specifically? I prayed to be a good woman (the heart of the prayer was for me to not feel ashamed, defective, never good enough). My underlying prayer was answered. It took myself to being the worst possible in order to understand the heart of my prayer. My shame, feeling defective and not good enough was my offense to God. He made me whole and perfect and no one ever told me that. I had to be told. I had no idea that I was allowed to be whole. He said it directly to me in the scripture, but I could not see it.

You know in the New Testament when Jesus preaches and says that some who will hear will understand, and those that can't, won't? Scared me. I asked a co-worker about the exclusion. He said to look at it like time--those who can't comprehend means that something else is in their path before they can. God gives us opportunities to hear. We have to recognize and take them.

He didn't lift my shame; he held my hand while I examined, understood and let it go. It was shame from birth. I had to take apart what was within my control and what I faulted myself for--as early as an infant and on up. It's a long process. God's prodigal parable is also a return to self, the way he made us, so there is a lot of relief and rejoicing along the way as well as pain.

I prayed that God would change my H, too. That was a disrespectful prayer, in my opinion. During his A, I prayed for God to soften my H's heart. Everything happens for a reason, in its own time...no waiting involved. My H softened his own heart by doing the resentments timeline, studying himself, learned to express his anger and not be ashamed. He learned to listen for his own feelings and to state them. That's how his heart softened.

What was the heart of your prayer? For the pain of rejection to stop? The frustration? When you prayed for change, what was underneath that prayer and what did you tell God you were capable of handling?

You feel like you died inside and that it happened, you got to that point, because of her. Is that correct? Can you consider that God can't stop us from killing our emotional selves inside? Our part in it; craving most from someone else what we are least giving? To others and to ourselves? If you focused on your wife and her words and actions to the point that you didn't examine your own, it's like starving your soul. I remember being soul-starved. Feels like death. I hated my self for every betrayal--when I didn't say my truth, but said what I thought would work on getting what I wanted. Each time I pulled away from my H because he had pulled away from me. Every punishing step, giving tit for tat, like raising a child. Absolute disrespect for myself and others, all in the guise of a martyr.

God can't make you feed yourself--he can only put the food--tools, support and messages--around you. I had to come to the self-destruction point, too, before I saw and heard them.

Someone said you didn't try to help her? I'm sorry. Only you can honestly judge what you tried and didn't try to do. What did you do to change yourself?

What in the computer did she break into and divulge to friends? I can tell this really hurts you because you've pointed it out before. I hear outrage and offense from you. I'm thinking that you're saying, "See? See? Who can withstand this?" and "Is that normal?" (Living in abuse takes reality away from you and puts a crazy replica in its place, so I understand this feeling of not knowing what is normal anymore.)

I can't tell where that pain is coming from because I don't know what it was you had blocked her from. You hated feeling laughed at by her and a church friend, or other people knowing your business. Does it make you feel vulnerable? Attacked? Judged?

She told your young daughters about your A? I'm very sorry. What did you say to them for your part? You are half the influence...please don't condemn them to being so by saying they are turning out just like her. If you feel that way, they'll become your enemies, also; as I believe you've made your wife into yours.

"Thats why I believe she doesn't care about me, only herself." You have believed this for longer than the sleep-deprivation. My H and I did this, too. He would keep me up during my affair and then I would during his. We figured out that if we made a reasonable time to talk, without distractions and held to it, then neither one of us felt that now was the only time and ride over the other person's needs. Sticking to it, repeatedly, was the key. And to limit the time. Start with 15 minutes. Then a half hour. Do it every other day. Do the listening exercise.

What I hear you saying is with her words, you still feel controlled, threatened, unsafe and that your feelings do not count. This is old, too. You want that to change. You want it desperately. All the divorce talk must cease from her and from you.

"As soon as I open up and recommit, I will be right back in this mess again. Starting at square one." This is almost verbatim what my H said. Even when he did recommit, he said, "I know that the path to my happiness is staying in this marriage, working out my own stuff for once and for all, and being there for my son. But it will be a long time before I consider you." Long was a couple of months. The very act of deciding and recommiting gave relief to my H's heart, and the daily proof of change helped, too.

Please don't base this decision on who you want your wife to be; only base it on who YOU want to be.

When your wife says, ""this marriage isn't over until I says it's over"." You can choose to say calmly, "I hear you saying that you believe you have control over our marriage. Is that correct?" She may feel immensely powerful due to realizing all the damage she's done, but that's part of the illusion of abuse. A marriage is as powerful as two but as vulnerable as one. Ephiphanies don't work as fast as recognition. You still have to deal with all the automatic expectations that ensue. You have one--if you wake up to what you've been doing wrong, you can't keep doing it! I say that you have this because of your posts. She woke up and isn't different all the time. That's what I got from you. A lot of the old stuff continues. Well, ask yourself the same question, if she has that expectation of you...that you realized what you were doing was damaging, inflicting harm, and you stopped your affair, but not your feelings--and you still act on those feelings. Would that appear that your ephiphany didn't bring any results?

I'm not bashing you, just trying to share how I see both of you locked into this reactive dance and it only takes one of you to stop. I thought it would be her. I felt that kinship. Maybe God is saying it has to be you, for your own good. You have to change yourself, act and don't react, define your code, understand and set your boundaries?

Thank you for posting again. Can you feel God with you in your struggle? Can you rely on him enough to know that you are not missing out on anything, but facing the truth of your life?

LA