This is a copy of the letter I mentioned. It was posted on this site, but I copied it and saved it in Word, so I could keep it. It is from Trueheart and it is a letter to all WS about how they need to burn off the fog and how he understands how they feel as a WS. It gave me alot of insight into how the WS feels, and how the Marriage can be better... I hope it helps... (The rest of this post is the letter. I will add another post to address other things I want to say).


Good morning everyone...been gone for the weekend!! I have been reading posts this morning...wow...pretty active weekend. I wanted to share with you, if you dont mind, a letter that I posted for Orchid in Plan A/Plan B forum to WS, hoping to maybe help someone...there are many more things I could have said, but felt I said too much anyway. I was just trying to help maybe burn off some fog for some WS and to let them know they are welcome and understood more than they know...I hope you all had a good weekend and have an even better Monday!! Keep the faith...
Trueheart

Orchid...Sorry this took so long! I had a busy weekend, but you guys were all in my thoughts and prayers!!! Here goes...I hope it helps someone out there that reads it...
Dear WS's everywhere,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to read this letter. I am writing this in hopes that your BS has brought you here in order that you might understand you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. It is intended to give you a measure of comfort and hope that you can feel safe as you come out the fog that has enveloped you so tightly over the past weeks, months, or years.

I do not know m any of you by name, nor do I know of all the details or circumstances surrounding your life, or your affair(s). What I do know is that we share two very important things in our lives and makes us somewhat connected as a WS. I am hoping that I can help you come back to the light, so that you can come back to the light that has, for so long, shielded you with that dense fog you may still be in.

The first thing that we share is the love of a person that totally, completely, and unconditionally stand by our side. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, in our darkest hours, we have someone that has always believed in us, and still does. They have put up with our lies, our anger, our accusations, and maybe in some cases verbal and/or physical abusiveness. They have watched us trash us the things they believed in more than anything in the world...our marriage, our vows, our trust and our love. In spite of it all, they see in us their hopes, their dreams, and their futures. They can't, nor do they want to, see themselves without us for the rest of their lives. They accept our imperfections and our infidelity as we have strayed from that which we know is wrong. They have continued to believe in us and want to help us right the ship and stay the course. They are willing to forgive us, grant us our mistakes, and come home to rebuild that life and make it better. They know they are not perfect, as well. They know they have made mistakes. They need us to open up, talk to them and give them answers so that they can learn, heal, and help repair the damage. They will accept their responsibility in these things. Can you? We, most of us, alsoe have children that look at us, and see only the love of a Mom or a Dad. They don't see us as imperfect, scared, or angry. They see us as a shelter, a safe haven where they can laugh, cry, hurt, be silly or serious, and tell us their fears or fantasies. We are their safety net when they fall. They look to us for answers in life, no matter how big or small the answers are. Our life changed, no matter much we didn't want it to when we helped create that life. We owe our children the best chance to learn from us. We owe them our unconditional, total, and complete love, so that they can start on the journey with as few bumps and bruises as possible. They look to you for truth in their lives. To deny them that chance, is a travesty. You took an oath, in your heart and mind, to protect and defend and teach YOUR child, as soon as they were created. So, you see, you have people in your life that believe in you, love you, accept you, want you, need you, cherish you, and the list goes on and on.

I know for a fact, that many of you, when with the OP, badmouth your spouse. You tell the OP how they do all the right things, fill you up, make you feel alive, do all the things your spouse does not, or used to do. You tell this person they are everything you ever wanted. They arouse you, they make you happy...interesting how you told your spouse that at one time too. And, the truth is, if you were to search your heart, you are not letting them do that now. They want to, they beg you to let them try...you justify your A, by telling them "I just don't feel that for you anymore", "I don't know if I want to be married anymore", "I dont know what I want", and a myriad of other flimsy reasons and excuses to buy time to spend with the OP. You give justifications that are so superficial they can't hold water. We even search our minds to think of everything that our spouse ever did, no matter how insignificant, how long ago it was, in order to make us feel better about cheating. We can find any reason to blame our spouse for US deciding and making a conscious choice to cheat and find a reason to say it is ok. What we should be doing is finding every reason for our BS to forgive us. We should be finding every reason to stay together, to come home, to make it right, to be a family...loving and supportive, forgiving and trusting. And you know what? Those reasons are there...everyday...the smile, the laugh, the tears, the love....they are there each and everyday!! Just look!!!

The second thing we share is the fact that we are all weak!! I know full well the pain, anger, frustration, fear, embarrassment, passion, fun, laughter, love, fear, and all the rest of the wide range of emotions of having an A. I know what is like to have that OP fill up your senses...so full and so fast you wonder how you ever made it without them. The sex is great, the passion is overwhelming, you can't wait to see them, touch them, hear them...all the while drifting further and further from your marriage...lost in the fog. NO matter how we justify it, that other person...is a cheater, as well. They know we are married and they choose to cheat with us. And in many cases, probably have before, and have told the other person they are with, all the same, exact things they tell us. "You are my soulmate" "you are the only one for me" etc etc. We have heard em all and said em all. We have been told they can make us happy "for the rest of our lives". WE have been so blinded by it all, that we give up family and friends we have had for years, in order for this OP to feel safe with us and convince them how we feel. We take all the energies that we don't use at home, and give them to someone "new". We spend money, time, and energy to build something with someone exciting, instead of spending that with someone that knows us and truly loves us. You see, the truth is, that we, both members of the affair, are very good at one thing....telling each other exactly what we want to hear. We put together elaborate speeches, write poetry, find mushy cards, send the "perfect" gifts, say the right things...all for this other person. Both of us continue to hone our "cheating" skills to the point of perfection. What ever happened to doing that to your spouse, instead of leaving them at the side of the road with a flat tire? We have derailed their entire life and emotionally checked out...in order to make us feel better about the affair. That simply isn't right. We took years to build something. We may have taken several years to weaken the foundation of it. But in one simple night of lust, and that is what it is, lust, we tried to destroy it. If we truly "loved" this person, if we truly believed what we were doing is right, true, and good, there would be no indecision on our part. There would be no hesitancy at all. The bottom line is that, you can trust the person you are cheating with less than you can trust yourself. It is a proven fact that only 25% of all affairs ever make it. Deep down in your heart, you still love your spouse, and you know it. You don't want to give up the excitement and passion you have found. The truth is that your marriage will never again go back to what it was. The blind faith in each other is gone....it is replaced with doubt and fear. The wonderful thing is that you now have a chance to "rediscover" your spouse, your marriage, and your family. It is not as hard as you may think, but will take some dedication on your part. But the beauty of the whole thing is you will be stronger and more in love than you ever thought you could be. You create new memories, new routines, a new life. You re-commit, reinvest your time and energies in that which truly loves you. The truth is most affairs end when the OP either gets what they thought they needed from you, and even more of them end when the OP finds another WS. Oddly enough, you weren't enough for them either. In the end you are left with no loving spouse, no children, no family, no friends.....and your OP that was so steadfastly dedicated to you is off romping with "the love of their life". I know from whence I speak, my friends. I know of the pain, the sorrow, the hurt, the look in my childrens eyes when I left the house. I hear the sounds of my W crying, begging, pleading, and hurting. I now see what a fool I was. I now spend everyday, more happy than I ever thought I could be. If the world were to end tomorrow, she would know I loved her as no other. No, she won't ever forget about the A, and along the way, there will be things that will trigger her mind, but, she has forgiven. You need to talk to your spouse to help them. YOU are the only one that can help them. They need you, much more now than ever before. You have to swallow that pride of yours, for them to heal. You have to open your life up to them, and hide nothing. You have to make it about them. The affair was making it about you, so now you owe it to them, no matter how embarrassed you are, no matter how much you don't wnat to talk about it, to make it about them. Their piece of mind, their feelings are all that matter. They know, from being here, what they need to do in order to help meet your needs. It is now up to you, to learn what you need to do in order to meet theirs. And make no mistake about it, it will be hard work, but it is oh so worth it!! This person you married, is willing to work with you in order to show you the love you deserve!! Are you willing to work to show them how much you truly love them?? By being here, at Marriage Builders, they have shown that they are willing to adopt the principles that it takes to put their marriage back together. They have pledged their love, and even their support, to your recovery, as well as theirs. They have accepted the crumbs you have offered them, while knowing full well you were at the buffet with the other person in your life. You have one of the strongest, most committed, most wonderful, loving, and caring people in the world on your side. Don't expect them not be angry from time to time. Don't expect them to be perfect, let you off the hook, and not talk about it with you. They need and want to understand you and all the things surrounding what happened. It is part of the healing process. What you can expect is love, honesty, and the rebuilding of your marriage. They know what it takes to make things work now. They also know that they, as well as you, have to be stronger than ever before in their life, if this is going to work. That is why they are still here...they understand. They even know, that you may backslide in the beginning, but are willing to deal with that, in order to preserve and protect that which they believe in ......YOU. I implore you, WS, burn off the fog. See the sand that is your foundation for the affair. There is no solid basis for this relationship..it is all smoke and mirrors that reflects this "love" you have found. Run, do not walk, back home and give your marriage all the energy, gifts, poems, cards, and love that you have given to the affair. The results are remarkable. But you have to be willing to be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to admit there is a problem, and you have to be willing to fix it, with your spouse, a counselor, whatever or whoever it takes to fix it. You have to be willing to want to be there in mind, body, and spirit. You will find a love more wonderful than anything you knew before.

I hope this helps, in some way, to show you what life can be after an affair. I know that I am blessed with the most wonderful person. I was given the opportunity to feel what life was like without her, and it was not what I wanted. I found the answers I sought...I found them both here, and in her arms. I can only hope, that in some small way, you find the same thing, and that I helped the fog to lift. If you ever wish to talk to someone who understands what we WS go through, then feel free to write [email]me...trueheart42@hotmail.com.[/email] There is a path back home. You need only choose it! Keep the faith!

*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*

Trueheart

Harmonie and #1,
I am also very glad to have "met" you through our stories,that are so similar in many ways. It helps me to feel less alone. I have told 2 of my friends, but have not told everything. Some things are too private to tell them, I have shared more here than I have with them. Partly because I know that we are working on our M, and I don't want them to be knowing too much about our M. They know enough already about the A. Neither friend lives in this state so we do not see them frequently, so that is good. My H confides in his friends who have been supportive of both of us. My friends that know have said that they will be supportive of both of us no matter what happens (i.e. if I leave H, they will still support me). They have been good about not telling me to kick him out. Although one friend told me that I am the only person she knows that would put up with this. I told her that I never thought that I would put up with an A, but when you have kids, you have to work on your M for them. It would be different if he had actually left me for the OW, as so many WSs have done. We are all lucky in that respect, that our WS did realize what they truly wanted, and it was US. I see so many WS's that do not realize it until they actually leave their family. I can't read those threads anymore. I have to stick to the positive ones, and the ones that I can identify with.

As for renewing vows, Number1Mom, try to let it come when it comes. You are ready now, I can feel that emotion in your words. Your H says that he is almost there. Give him some time. I think Niagara Falls for just the two of you would be beautiful and so meaningful. Perhaps Christmas 06 would be the time, if you want to do it at Christmas time. I think that whatever time of year you do it, will be meaningful just because you have done it.

My H does not visit this website (we do not have a computer at home, so he does not have access, that's why I only get on line at work). I have printed some things out for him to read.

Hey girls,
Just got back from doing the food shopping.Gee sometimes i can't believe how much i spend.

I hope you both are doing fine this moring.I am.I was telling my H about you too last night.Told him how i was'nt alone.He was happy for me.I try to tell him more about it but his look of guilt makes me stop.

Has your H ever told you at times he thought it would of been better if he was'nt there.My H says this a while ago that maybe if he was'nt here i would be over what he did to me.I told him no way.He just don't understand how we feel.Just like we don't know how they feel.

Have any of you ever got into any details.Do you think you know the whole story.I still don't because out of guilt and covering his butt my H lied for 5 months about them having sex.So everything i asked about it i'm not sure it was the truth.Like he says she was on top all 5 times,she had the condoms,and that they were never fully undressed.They both were ashamed of there bodies.With my H he says his pants never came off,This in a way i could believe because when he had sex it was quick and he never to the time to take them off.So this could be true>i don't know.Its like somethings you need to know.One thing that made me sick was she had a bigger chest yes i am rather small.Oh yea and they had sex in her car to.Talk about scums.And when her D was home up in her roon.She was rather little.YUK.

These things bug me so much at times.I want to make love to my H and not have her pop in my head.

I'm glad you girls like that letter i got from the other site.I'm about to read the one from trueheart.

talk to you later
#1mom

HI, I came home from work early today as my back is killing me! Need some quiet time home with no kids or H or ????? LOL

I have not gotten all the details and even though I am somewhat morbidly curious, I know I am better off NOT knowing.
I got H to tell me HOW things went to far. Basically they started as a EA as break freinds at work. Then one day IT needed a ride home as one of IT's kids was using the car. So gallant dear H came to IT's rescue. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Well, she found this to be rather CONVENIENT and the little sluterina took advantage.... My spin on the sitch but I am sure I am not to far off base.
Next thing ya know H says IT was inviting him in, says he'd "hang out" with her, met her kids-16S & 18D.
He told me at first they went to bed and just laid there together...*puke*... and talk. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
They only "did it" 4 times he claims. Some times I wonder if by "doing it" he is omitting the Bill Clinton version? That there was other stuff happening but it was not sex... LOL...*puke*
It kills me because I KNOW how much he can please ME in bed, the thought of him doing things to IT makes me sick. H was so inexperienced when we got together and it has taken him the last 10 -12 years of us being together to learn all the right things that make me go HMMMMM! No wonder the
b!tch didn't wanna let him go! And though "IT" may have seen that my H does have a strong sense of loyalty and integrity and what a terrific wonderful man he IS she neglected to realise the ME & his children come first. And that I would NEVER give him up! I have fought too hard for too long working on this marriage to let some cheap piece of trash get away with this crap!!!!
"IT" just happened to weasel her snake self in at the wrong time and take advantage of a man who was confused and "LOST".... now this is NOT to say I do not blame my H or that he had no part in this disgusting betrayl, oh no. He's a big boy... just a little F*'d up in his thinking ..... and I did my own share of trying to drive a wedge between us,too.
But after the illusion was shattered and I broke through the fogs, I see my husband coming back to ME. And I believe things must only get better with every MONTH. To go Day by Day is hard for me, so I measure the progress by the whole month.
I personally have a long way to go before I can say I am recovered. I have NO trust at all, though I try, I am constantly suspicious. And Triggers.... Not just the Lone Rangers Horse my dears..... LOL.... I wake up every day and "IT" is on my back like a demon.*B!tch* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Yes, the sad stories here have gotten to be too hard for me to read. All the people who are signing up make me so sad for them. I shake my head and wonder why?

Now, on a HAPPY note!
H asked me out for a date this Saturday night! He asked if I wanted to go out for Kareoke at a place near our house. I was quite happy about this, Him initiating a night out. He has also been looking up places where we can go sledding/tubing. Very good on him!
As for where I am, I am in Minnesota. Brrrrrrr! Very cold! Where are you guys from?

I am of to the couch for a nice and peacful afternoon nap.
I'll pop in later!
Be Well!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hello again #1 Mom,

I think it's good to be able to talk to others who understand, and good that your H was glad for you when you told him this last night. I understand the guilt look he had. My H has this look alot when I have mentioned this website, although he has also said he's glad that there are people I can talk to about it. He has never said that maybe I would be better off if he wasn't around. I try to tell him that many of our problems were because he wasn't around and I resented being alone w/ the kids. Now he makes an effort to be around and do stuff w/ the family.

As for knowing the details of the sex, what a can of worms we have opened here...another one of the thoughts that I struggle with...I don't know details at all. My situation is much different than yours, Number 1, because this A went on for about 7-8 mos. He was basically staying over at her apartment when he was working overnights--they both worked graveshift, and would meet at her apt, have sex, sleep all day, get up and go to work that night. All this while I'm either at work, or taking care of the kids. But back to your question....

Since he has told me that the reason he cheated was Sex, I feel justified in asking detailed qts about it. I want to know what they did, how did it start, did he do anything w/ her that he didn't do w/ me, was there anything he did w/ her that he felt was missing in our sex life, etc. As of yet, I have not asked all the questions I want to know. We sat down a few weeks ago before Xmas and I asked some qts. He said that he did not compare us (more on this later), and for me not to compare myself to her. That he did not make love to her as he would to me--that it was a sex thing, not a love thing. It is torture for me to think of her doing things to him, and him doing things to her. But I feel that I have to know, so that I can learn and be more open sexually. As someone who is insecure about my sexuality, finding out that he had an A based on sex has been devastating. It just reinforced my insecurities. We have had SF since Dday, more that I initiated it than him,he admitted he was afraid to touch me and approach me. The first couple times were really really hard as all I could think about was her (would she touch him this way? Did he touch her this way? etc). I told him that it was really hard for me and he assured me that there was no comparison. I never asked was she better than me? I won't ask that question because I think there is no right answer to that question. I think I was just different from her, and that I can live with.

Anyway, there was another thread about sex that I would like to find and quote...but what it said was that men do not compare women sexually when in bed with them. They focus on their pleasure at the moment and pleasing the woman they are with at the moment. This helped me a bit because if this is true, then he really did not compare us or think about her while he was with me (the bad flip side of this is that he didn't think about ME while he was w/ her). I know that I have a hard time turning my mind off during sex (previously) and he does not. He is just there in the moment.

I'm pretty small to average size in the chest area, and don't know about her. I didn't ask that question either.
Someone on this board advised me to be careful of the questions I ask, and to try to make them helpful not hurtful. I will search the boards for that other quote and post it here.

Hi Harmonie,
Wow, Minnesota...never been there and don't know if I could take the winters....I'm in Connecticut and we get our share of snow, but nothing like your weather...

My IT is on my back almost constantly too. I think about her at the oddest times too, she just pops right into my head. She also thought she could reel my H away from his family and kids to find a father for her own son. In my mind, I think their PA began as an EA similar to what your situtation was, but he has not actuallly told me how it started. The reason I want to know more details is that my imagination is worse than the truth sometimes. Certain things I have said to him about her, and he replies, no, it wasn't like that at all, and then he will tell me about it. Like for example, he always loved to cook nice dinners for us and would put a lot of love and effort into his cooking. It killed me to think that he would cook her one of his meals. When I mentioned it, he said that he never cooked her dinner, not once. He used to make breakfast sometimes. Just a little thing, but one that was eating away at me. It made me feel better to know that he didn't cook dinner for her.

I am so happy to hear that your H has invited you out on a real date --I hope you have a great time. I would love for my H to do this. To spend time alone with him is a real treat. Now we have been trying to talk after the kids are in bed. I have already told him that we have a lot to do this weekend on MB. I feel like we are making progress but need to really get him into it.

enjoy the nap, you deserve it!

Hi Girls,

Okay, I found the thread about sex, and I quoted it here as it was posted. (The thread is in General Qts also, and is entitled Please help I have a serious qt about sex). if you want to read it all. The topic is that her husband doesn't lust after her and she's trying to get him to.

This gave me some insight into how men look at sex as being in the moment...It really was enlightening for me and helped me to get the OW/IT out of the bedroom!!!
Mamafish


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Maybe if HE would go the extra mile for me... I could respond. And... with the legacy of the OW fresh in my mind and probably his.... I do feel crappy.


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The reason that I keep asking what makes YOU feel sexy because it is all about YOU..not about him or the OW....

Don't wait for HIM to respond...

Don't worry about what SHE may have been like...

HE probably doesn't even remember..

From what I have learned from reading and from my husband, it's about the MOMENT with a MAN sexually. Other men's viewpoints may be helpful here. They are EXCITED about YOU wanting to be with them at THAT MOMENT.

So when he is with you, he is not thinking about HER or comparing YOU to HER..HE is focused on that moment of PLEASURE. The same should be said for you..the moment of PLEASURE....with YOUR MAN..

IT'S YOUR SHOW!!! As Pep coached me when I was at your stage, FOCUS ON WIPING ALL TRACES OF HER OUT OF HIS MIND... Since he LOVES YOU, YOU are FULLY CAPABLE OF DOING THAT...

BUT...YOU NEED TO FEEL SEXY..That will make you CRAVE SEX FROM HIM and IMO, that will make him LUST FOR YOU..THE FACT THAT YOU WILL WANT HIM...

I would say that this is different for different women..

That's why I ask you: WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL SEXY?

I don't think that you have answered..

For me, I listen to certain music that makes me think of my H, I light candles, I use certain body washes, I put on certain outfits for him, I wear my favorite cologne..it's different on different days...

However, I always do the basics of lotion, makeup, lipstick, etc.

Do you see what I am saying?

IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU and YOUR ATTITUDE about this....


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I think that this is true almost 100% of the time. One of the things that I found disturbing is that after more than a decade of being nothing more than long distance friends, OW, after divorcing her H, began to actually plot to begin a R with my FWH.

FWH certainly crossed a line during their friendship by confiding to her some of our most intimate marital problems. Somehow I think that he found it easier and less embarrasing to discuss things with her rather than a male friend.

I have always been a kind of what-you-see-is-what-you-get person and he, being fairly inexperienced with women other than me, assumed that all women were that way. He couldn't imagine that she would say things to him simply to manipulate him into an A.

I was responsible for making him vulnerable to her and he was ripe for the picking. Her offer of no-strings sex was simply too tempting to pass up. He simply could not see that OW had already developed an emotional attachment to him and had her own agenda. As soon as they began the affair, she began to push for more and more from him.

It took him a few months to figure out that getting out of the A was going to be much more difficult that getting in. Although emotionally and physically, he could have walked away from her at any time, she clung to him with threats of suicide and exposing the A to me. I believe him when he says that unless I bring her up, he simply doesn't think of her at all.

I have been far more obsessed with OW than he has, but I believe that is because I simply don't understand how he couldn't have known that for most women, there is no such thing as no-strings-attached sex. I mean, I can not even imagine meeting up with someone I hadn't seen in more than 10 years who was only just a friend and jumping into bed with them. I would find that so awkward.

Does anyone else here find that really wierd?

Who

Hey girls,

This is a quick note.I had a whole page written to you and i got kicked offf.So if for some reason it happens again i will be back tomorrow.

Believe me that totally sucked.Now i lost my train of thought.

Check back in a little bit
#1mom

WhoMe.

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.... because I simply don't understand how he couldn't have known that for most women, there is no such thing as no-strings-attached sex. I mean, I can not even imagine meeting up with someone I hadn't seen in more than 10 years who was only just a friend and jumping into bed with them. I would find that so awkward.

Does anyone else here find that really wierd?
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Not really. Believe it or not, there are more women out there than you might think that are perfectly content in sex only relationships. Some men are aware of this fact, others not.

All the best,
Gimble

Harmonie,Mamafish,

Gee that made me so made.I had a whole story written and my computer shut down.Doubt i will be able to remember.WHO MES story is just another one of many that is like ours.

WHO ME
Why would your H want to not only risk his M but his best friend.I think it would be great to have a friend that you keep in touch with for yrs.I'm sorry it turned into more.I see you sre three yrs into recovery.How has it been.Is there anything else you have learned that could help us.Do you have memories like it was yesterday.I only hope mine start going away faster.Its been a yr and 2 wks.Pls let us know.

Harmonie,Mamafish,

Harmonie how are yoy feeling ?i hope better.I see we all like the snow.NOT.I'm from upstste NY.Sometimes i wish people from here could get together.Even as couples.I think we could learn an awful lot from eachother.All being in a group.

My H and i spend alot of time together.We now at night read to eachother.We are reading Harry Potter.The fifth one we are on.We read the fourth one and then went to see the movie.Gee its wierd seeing how much is left out.Reading was something he loved to do.Not me.But now i lovr it.We take turns with chapters.This means so much to him.

He says when hes having a bad day at work he just wants to come home and be close to me.That means alot to me.He has changed in so many ways.Hes a different person.A better person then he was before his sin.He was never one to help around the house.help with the kids.Now he does so much more.I still want to say i do 60%and he does40%almost 50/50(LOL)thats better than 100%me.He is trying.I just hope he stays this way.I do get scared.

This thing with sex still bugs me.Why do they want to lose eveything just to have it?I like what you wrote mamafish about feeling sexy and making the moment just ours.I know he is not thinking of her.I know i am.That sucks because i'm missing out.I just hope over the weeks,months,yrs it goes away.See he never wanted her,he thought i did'nt want him.How did we get so mixed up.

The sad thing is this girl this it did'nt want him.She pkayed with him.When he wold her i new she just laughed.She knew my H would'nt leave.A girl a it that uses men for sex.I did'nt think possible till i came here.

My H said none of this was my fault,he was evil and twisted at the time he was stressed ander pressure,wanting tp please everyone.I said why not please me.He said he did'nt know how.Boy he does now.Just doing stuipid little things makes such a difference.The kiss goodbye the kiss when he comes home the call during the day just to say I love you,It means so much.WHY DID'NT WE KNOW IT WAS THIS SIMPLE.We lost so much time.He lost himself as a person for a while.For what .NOTHING.

Well i have to make dinner.I might be on later.If not see you in the moring
#1mom

WhoMe,
I agree totally. My H says that the OW knew from the beginning that he would never leave his family for anyone, they "agreed" that it would just be a physical relationship (how she would agree to this is beyond me! or Why? Or why he thought she agreed to this?) She "caught feelings" for him and fell in love with him over some amount of time, and when she started pressuring him to spend more time w/ her, that is when he tried to back off and realized, like your H, that it would not be so easy to get out of the A as it was to get into it. She clung to him also and made him feel guilty. I also obsess over her more than he does (he doesn't think of her unless I bring her up also), and I also can't understand why he would think that she would NOT develop feelings for him over time. I have to wonder if he led her on by telling her that he loved her, but we haven't had that conversation yet. He says that he did not love her, but has not come out and said that he did not tell her he did. We are due for a long talk this weekend and this will be one of my points for discussion...

Good morning everyone,

I hope you all had a good night last night. Number1 Mom, I know exactly what you mean about missing out on the little things for so long (ILYous, phone calls during the day, kiss hello & goodnight). We missed out on them for so long and didn't realize it until it was too late. I have to consciously do it in order to make it a habit. It's nice that you and your H read to each other. My H is not a reader, but after DDay, he would read parts of the Bible to me. He would ask me what I was feeling and then look it up and read passages to me. I really felt close to him when we did that. He found reading the Bible to be very helpful for him. We even started going to church every week which we had not done as a family, and that has also helped both of us in many ways.

My H has also said that he is taking the blame for this. I have told him that I am sorry for my part in making him feel like i didn't want him anymore. I accept my responsibility for that. He has accepted the blame for the A, and for his bad decisions.

I think I was posting about how we are going to do the EN Questionnaires and read this week. My H has not done it yet and last night he said, why don't we read it over together and do it together (do the questionnaires separately though). I think that is a good idea, because we will read HNHN, and he will be able to see how we were not meeting ENs. I have read SAA and HNHN and HNHN For Parents. He has read bits & pieces that I printed out from the website. I'm looking forward to getting alot of this stuff out in our discussion this weekend. I am thankful for your postings, ladies, as they have helped me out more than you know.

Mamafish,

Glad to hear from you.I think its great you two reading parts of the bible.I like that idea.I think i will bring on in bed within the next few days.We also from day one have been saying we would like to go to church,we hav'nt made it.I hope to do so.I think right now my H says hes wants gods forgivness and right now he still don't deserve it.He said when he forgives himself he will ask god to forgive.

I did forgive my H back in Aug but still after wards had a hard time with triggers still wanting answers,still crying alot.He thinks i forgave him within my heart and i still have to do it in my mind.Which sometimes i think is true.

This morning i am not doing to well,I think its from me being sick my house not being as clean as it could me.Why does she have to be on my all the time.My H is such a different person,he makes me happy.He will do anything for me,give me anything.I'm not talking about buying me things.I don't need anything.I don't want to be sad anymore.The sad thing is i know i could be happy at all times.I just choose to put sitsurations in my head.

Heres one that stayed for ever.What if it got pregnant.Yeah they say they used condems,but did they really.If she had them how did he not know she did'nt poke holes in them.I know the first time they tried to have sex and they have anything.So it stayed in my mind you never know.I did have him get tested for everything.Even hiv which he wanted to go to a privite clinic but ended doing at his drs officw were it would'nt be so priviate.This has to count for something.Still i counted down the months till it would of been nine months two weeks since the last time the had sex.I do'nt know why i did it to myself because when she calles in june her H was on the phone and believe me he wanted me to know everything.I still thought about this all the way till Oct.

I would love to know what actully wheeled him in.Its sad to think a girl could play with your ego.Put you on a pedastool and you would risk everything to feel good for a few moments.

Sorry to ramble on.

Do you have any plans this weekend?I don't have to much going on.Just hoping to feel better.Good luck with all you questionares.I did do them,we actully did'nt do to bad.I think that was because i found this web site at a later time.We were already connecting.We still had things to inprove.We probally always will.

As you said talking to us has helped you more than we could know.I can say the same.To tell you the truth its made me understand alot more about my H.That some women at all costs will come between a married couple.Why cause there not happy so they want to destroy someone else.

I think i will get back to cleaning.I was glad to hear from you this morning.It told me i have friends out there that cared and that i am not alone.

#1mom I will be back in a bit.

You guys are so fortunate your H's are willing to do the MB stuff with you. When I first found this site I too printed out all the questionaires and told Habout everything I was learning here. That was when he decided that I was doing more work than our lame-O MC and he said he wanted to stop goingto the guy. That was ok for me ...sort of. But then H also decided he didn't want to do the questionaires. He 1/2 did the EN qt's and gave it a half assed effort. All his answeres were "middle of the road". WTH? He was answereing them though in how he felt things were for him AD of the A. Not pre A.
But knowing him as well as I do think I know him (somedays I am not so sure who he is ) I am able to meet his needs, though some I have to try real hard. He is showing more of an interest in outdoors type things, his recreational needs. Things that I am not so nuts about. But I have been trying to find something in his interests that I can possible be involved in too.
So here's a question for you girls......

How can I initiate conversations about the actual process of Marriage Building and recovery steps for US if he is not receptive to doing the actual steps, or learning them?
I am at the point of being affraid to bring up anything because I am affraid he will "shut down" or go "foggy" again. Things like the POJA & conflict resolution, Power of protection,... How can I talk to him about these things?

I am home from work today and waiting for DR's office to call back as my back is killing me crazy today. There is nothing worse (?) (oh yes there IS!!! LOL) than lying on the couch in pain starring at a messy house and not beingable to haul butt and get it cleaned up.

chat later,
Be Well,

Hi Harmonie & #1 Mom,

sorry that you both are not having a good day due to feeling sick and back problems. I know how miserable it can be. My three kids were all sick over the holidays, and then I got sick too. It takes alot out of you and if you don't keep up w/ the housework, it gets very frustrating. Just hang in there, take care of yourselves, and get better, and then worry about the house. You know, this is one of the points we have all discussed==putting our kids and H ahead of ourselves. So today, put yourself first to get well so you will feel better on the weekend....


Lots of comments to make based on your responses, and I only have a few minutes right now, so will have to come back. I will answer Harmonie's qt about how to bring up the MB topics. We are in a similar boat (again). We have gone to MC, which I think is not very productive and we would be better off doing the MB principles. If we commit to them, I think we will do okay. Also less expensive than paying the MC. If your H is willing to commit to the M, then I would tell him he HAS to be willing to do the MB program if you are not continuing to see the MC. This is what I have told my H. I have also delayed on actually sitting down and doing it. Partly so we could enjoy the holidays without discussing this (although a few nights I was awake and crying in the bathroom while he slept because of the thoughts running through my mind). Then the kids got sick and so did us both--not a good time to discuss this stuff.

That is why in my last post I said that I told him we HAD to do it this weekend, and now we are going to read together. Harmonie, if your H is not a reader like mine, maybe this would be a good approach. I think one reason my H has put off reading on his own is that he mistakenly thinks that the MB plan puts all the blame on the WS, and that is not the case. He hasn't read enough to know this and I think that is why he is reluctant to start on his own.

Hey, gotta run into a meeting so I couldn't finish this but will be back in about an hour. Hope this helps so far. I have alot to say...

Harmonie,

I too think MC don't work in all cases.They just don't know you.My H is a reader but did'nt really want to read much from this web site.I think alot has to do that he was not honest for months.You know fear i would leave .That was a big thing for MB to be honest.I tried to get him to come here just to see from both points of few.Yes in some stories you seem like your being attacked.You also know you are not alone.Once in a while i would find something and have him read it.It's not are intention to put them down.
Yes they were wrong,but they are here they want to work it out.

Have you tried asking what he thinks would help.Maybe you can take turns writing in a notebook.This might work it might not.

I know it hard with the kids always around.This is what i hated.It would take forever for them to be asleep so we could talk.I wish we had more time in the begining t talk.Its been a yr and i hate to bring things up.I don't want him to think i'm punishing him.

Does you sixteen yr babysit?Maybe you can go out even if its just dinner.Time alone is needed.I learned this too late.I'm just glad its not to late.

To be honest i don't think you have to live by MB.I really have'nt yes i read a couple books,i answered questionares and i come here to talk to people here.

So tell him if he wants to do it a different way your up for it.Maybe set a day and time for it.when you know you have quite time for a while.Maybe not even bring up MB.

I know this was'nt to much help if i think of something else i will tell you.

Take care of you back i have RA i know what its like being in pain.

#1mom

Hi guys,

Okay, I'm back. We too have to wait until the kids are asleep to really talk and because there was no school until this week, they were up late. hence no talking.

Anyway I'm going to try to cover the points I wanted all in this email and will just go by topic.

Church--this helped us. I never went to church regularly in childhood or adulthood although I do believe in God. My H was a regular churchgoer as a child but when he went out on his own, he did not go to church often, although he is a more fervent believer than me and talks alot about leaving things in God's hands, and praying for what we need/want. He has told me that he feels that God has forgiven him, now he is waiting for me to forgive him (opposite of your H, although I do not think that he has forgiven himself either). the first time we went to church, the topic was forgiveness, which was right in line with what I needed to here. I went because he wanted me to go and because it was something we needed to do as a family. We talked about it alot but never did it because of his working graveshift on the weekends. I have actually looked forward to it as it gives me a sense of peace that I need. I haven't forgiven, and know it will be a long road, but I am open to forgiveness sometime in the future, I hope that I will be able to forget. I guess the timeframe is about 2 yrs from what I've read here. So number 1 mom, you are at 1 year, and doing pretty good.

STD's = there is a good thread called The reality of STDs and affairs. I posted a couple qts and was advised to go get myself tested and to insist on seeing my H's test results. He told me that he had gotten tested but I wasn't sure if I believed him or if he just said that he had when I asked about it. He told me to get tested for my own peace of mind. I haven't yet due to insurance issues but was told in the thread that the state dept of public health will do it no charge. I am procrastinating on calling but I know I should. I got a pap smear 6 wks after delivery of my baby, but he and OW had sex right after that, so I will have to repeat it. Also, I had HIV/STD test in Feb as routine in pregnancy, but again, this was right at the beginning of the A.

And Number 1 mom, I feel you on counting down the months and days for possiblelpregnancy. Guess what? My IT got pregnant last march and had an abortion in April. Right after DDay, I still felt like there was something BIG that he was not telling me. I told him that and he said, well she got pregnant and had an abortion. I was stunned but at the same time, relieved because I would also have been counting the months as you did. Given the type of person she was, I thought she would try to trap him by getting pregnant. Well, she got pregnant, but as she could not handle dealing w/ the 2 yr old, she did not want to have this one. I asked my H how he handled this, what did he tell her when she told him. He said he used reverse psychology on her and told her that he would stand by her decision and if she decided to have the baby, he would support it and her . This made me sick to my stomach like nothing else has. Here I am also pregnant and having a baby in August, and possibly he would have 2 women pregnant with his child at the same time. I'm not Britney (#(%* Spears here!! Anyway, thanks be to God, she did not have the baby. I really would not be able to deal with it if she had. I have very mixed feelings about this whole aspect, and cannot allow myself to think about what would have happened if she did not go through with it. He said that she assured him that she could not get pregnant because she was undergoing treatment for skin cancer (this was partly how she guilted him into staying apparently) He said that after this happened, she went on BC pills, they did not use condoms even after this. Why not, I cannot begin to comprehend. I cannot imagine why he continued after this, but I think that she made him feel guilty about the abortion also. What a psycho! You would think that would have been a wake up call for him....

I can't remember the other topics I wanted to comment on so I have to post this one, and then go back and read your posts to remember what it was.

Mamafish,

What is it with men.These days there is so much they can catch.They hardlt knew this women and did'nt care.What makes me sick is that they probally had sex with them and then with us.My H says no-way i say if could of happened.

I don't know why i am so sad today.Everytime i turn around i am in tears.I should'nt be.I am happy,i love my life now.What is wrong with me?Why can't i just let the past stay in the past and move on.I try not to cry in front of my H,he told me not to long ago he does'nt know what else he can do.I tell him it's not him it's me.Then he said sometimes he feels like maybe i'm crying cause i want him to leave.This makes me feel worse.That's the last thing on my mind i tell him. How can we be sad let them know it without them feeling guilty.

Does your H talk to you about his feelings,Mine did but not latley.I know he does so much for me i just miss him getting all nuts over me and saying all the mussey stuff.I do hear ILU many times in the day.I think i need more at times.

I do hope i will be able to make it to church.This i know will help me.

Well i have to go get the kiddies and get gas first.I'll be back later
#1mom

Okay, here's some more if you're ready for it. I still haven't figured out how to use that Quote thing so this will have to do.

MB Plan--I am encouraged, #1Mom, that you are not living completely by MB,because with all those agreements, I'm not sure if we would be able to do it all. The honesty one is fine, but that POJA--sometimes you just don't have the time to sit down and negotiate every single thing. I think the focus on meeting ENs is the most useful thing. I took that Qtn myself right after DDay based on how our marriage was then and pre-A and he was barely meeting ANY of mine. I would have to say that the same would go for him. I am going to retake it based on how things are now.

Harmonie,

I understand why you find it hard to bring up the topic, for fear that he will shut down. This is a fear of mine also. But I know that if I do not push it, he will never do it. I feel like until he actually reads some of this stuff, I am kind of doing it on my own , trying to meet his needs, and he is not doing so much to meet my needs. He is feeling like everything is okay because I haven't brought it up but it is not okay. My H said that he would do all this stuff, but actually getting him to do it has been the problem. We usually wait until the kids are in bed too. but I suggested that we just put in a movie for them and we can read and talk while they watch it. If your H truly wants the marriage, he will have to show you that he will do what it takes. That is my feeling, whether it is MB or something else, or a combination.

Another thing that I am considering telling him also is that I feel that I can move on but I really need to have my questions answered so that I can do this. He has also resisted this, but I need to push him on this also. We do have the right to INSIST that they participate in the process. One poster I read said that she asked her husband why he was trying to sabotage their recovery, when he would not do things related to M. I forget who that was, but that remark always stuck out in my mind.

Forgiveness--there is a post I read about how forgiveness does not come first, it actually comes AFTER recovery. You will know that you are able to forgive when you have made a full recovery. I found this on the Recovery forum and will try to find it again. It made me focus less on forgiving and more on moving forward. The post was from a BH who said that his wife would ask him if he forgave her, and he would say, do I act like I have forgiven you? (this was after 1 year) and eventually they stopped talking about it, because they were in full recovery and it became less of an issue. I will try to find that and post it over here.

MB Friends--knowing that you gals are here for me has meant alot this week. It definitely helps to relate, share experiences, as bad as they are, and to get and give advice, and our H's perspectives on the A. We are all in different stages of the process, but it seems that we are all learning from each other. I hope to come back you on Monday with a positive update on our weekend discussions.
We do not have any other plans, just church on Sunday. We don't do too much during the winter due to the cold and the weather.

Oh one thing my H mentioned last night was that he wanted to join a gym. This is something that he has talked about for over a year, and when he was away from home during the A, many times he said that he was at a gym near the casino--big fat lie!! So, this is somewhat of a trigger for me , although I encouraged him to join one. The one he wants to join is right near my job and many of my coworkers go there. I know that the Harleys would say that I should join also so that he does not find someone else to enjoy this time with, someone he may meet at the gym. This is my dilemma because we have not discussed how he cannot be friends with women. I really do not have the time to join a gym because of the childcare situation. Should I just lay out the whole MB thing about boundaries and not confiding in females, etc this weekend, and tell him to go ahead and join? Should I tell him my concerns about it==I guess that I should do that at least. What do you think about this?

Well, I guess I will get off my soapbox for the time being and check in again before I leave work. I will miss you all this weekend since I can't check in until Monday. Hope you all have a good weekend!
Mamafish