My wing is 3. So that will be E. Right?

Faith:

I've been reading WILD AT HEART by John Eldredge and found this information. It really fit almost perfectly for my son and me. I wondered about you and your son.

p. 68




I read the last couple of sentences to my H and he got tears in his eyes. Oops.. being the man(?) that he is..was probably his allergies causing those tears....

Mimi...yes, that is the type Three. Excellent excerpt from Wild At Heart by the way.

This is especially a problem area for the type Two mom, as you probably already know. I have a strong Two wing and one of my sons is a Five. He had to literally separate himself from me and just move out (very little conversation on the day he moved and yet he wasn't angry...it wasn't about me) in order to follow through with his plans to move. It's because he basically feels incompetent in life in general and he has to prove himself TO himself. It's a survival mechanism for him. Because I understood this, and didn't expect him to be at his highest level of emotional health during that difficult time, we were back to being great friends in a very short time (maybe 2 weeks).

He has very limited emotional reserves and I realize that. I cut him lots of slack in that area. However, I also sometimes call him on it and ask him to move beyond it if I really need him for something. He's also almost 23 years old. He's only been out on his own for a year. It was quie a transistion for him and for us. Fives are often late-bloomers in this area.

Knowing our Enneagram types basically allowed me to see that this situation was not all about me or my mothering style or how good of a job I'd done. It was about him breaking away and moving toward his own life and his own manhood without me...something he has to do.

Stillwed

Mimi-

I just bought that book a couple of weeks ago, but I haven't looked at it yet. Thank you for the heads up - I actually bought it for my H because I heard that it was a good read for men. It didn't even occur to me to read it as it relates to my YS. Good suggestion.

I read the passage you have quoted, and I honestly don't think it sounds like my R with YS. But I am going to think more about it (after all, I could be too close to the situation, and not seeing it clearly). However, reading that passage actually makes me feel a little better about how I am dealing with all of this.
In the beginning,I spent the first 3 days crying non-stop. I did not call him to cry, or beg, or try to convince him to come home. I just let him have his space. By day 4 I was feeling more in contol of my emotions, and I decided that I need to let him have his space. I needed to let him really experience the consequences of his own choice - I know he is safe, I know he will not be abused. But I also know that his Dad has a temper, and will yell and scream at the smallest thing. I also know that he does not have a good R with his dads new wife, or her two kids. I have no doubt that he is not having a lot of fun over there. But I am not going to be "in his face" about it.

I send him a text message every day just saying "I love you, and I hope you are having a good day". So far, he never responds. But I send the message anyway, and leave it at that. I do not call him. he has called me twice now, and each time he sounded angry. Wanted to keep the converstaion short. that was until Friday----

Update-
Friday afternoon YS called me just to chat. he called and said 'hey mom, how are you, how is work going?" so we chatted for awhile. he told me that he is working (volunteer) at the snack bar for his high school basketball games. I am pleased with that. he asked how his brother is, and then he said "How is John?" (my new H) to that I said "he is doing fine. But he misses you. We all miss you." at that he said "I know, ok I gotta go now, I will call you again later".
That was the end of the call, and he has not called since then, but I am feeling really good about the call. I kept it light hearted - I did not say anything like "It is good to hear your little voice". But I did get to let him know that we all miss him - so he knows that we have not just completely written him out of our lives.

My new H felt very good about the call too. We have been praying together for YS, and felt like the call was a way for God to show us that what we are doing is working, and we should keep our faith.

I have moments where I worry that I am not doing enough to bring him home. After all, I don't call him, I don't insist that he visit us, I don't invite him out to dinner. I know in my mind, that eventually if we decide that he truly will live there permanently that I will need to insist on visitations every other weekend and one night per week (as his Dad is supposed to do now) but I have not insited yet. This has only been going on for two weeks now. I am praying, and I fast on Mondays-this will be my 3rd Monday. But I worry that I am not "doing" anything. Mimi - the passage your quoted above gives me great confidence that what I am "doing" is just fine. I am letting him break away, and not trying to baby him.

Of course my desire is that he will return to a right relationship wtih Jesus first, and me second. I desire to be a daily part of his life, nurturing him, guiding him. But I will not let him bully me with the threat of "I am going to lvie with Dad" every time he is unhappy. Moving out, and trying to start some new life with a total disregard for who you hurt in the process is never going to work. it hasn't worked for his Dad, and it will not work for him.

Many times I feel like the skills I have learned in relating to a WS has helped me to understand what is happening with my wayward son. Just this weekend I realized that without him at home I have a lot less dirty dishes in the sink. YS likes to cook, and dirty up a lot of dishes after he gets home from school. He is not good about cleaning up after himself without reminders. He also likes to shower twice a day and leave wet towels on the bathroom floor. I am quite certain that his dad is not happy with all the dirty dishes and wet towels. And if YS has been told that he can not cook for himself after school,and he can not leave dirty dishes laying around on the counters, and hw can not use a new towel every time he showers, I am sure that YS has felt the effects of his Father's LB him!

Mimi- I am going to take a look at that book tonight.
Thanks again

WOF, almost sounds like you are in plan A with your YS.

WOF,

Were you able to successfully pick out one of the paragraphs for yourself and/or your son on the Enneagram personality assessment? I've sure been thinking about you this weekend. I know that a situation like this with one of my kids would break my heart too. I'm sorry you are going through it!

Stillwed

Still:

What book would you recommend as a start-off to learn about ENNEAGRAM PERSONALITY PROFILES?

Mimi,

The most basic book out there is called The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price, but it is very basic. The test in it is the paragraph test that I use here. It's very inexpensive with a $10 cover price and worth every penny!

The next book, which is deeper and just excellent, is The Wisdom of the Enneagram by Riso and Hudson.

Take care! I think we lost WomanOfFaith! Uh-oh!

Still

sorry - have been busy at work!
I will try to work on it later today.
Thank you for thinking of me

WOF,

I am taking off tomorrow morning for the weekend with H and our grown kids! It should be lots of fun. I thought I'd better let you know so you didn't think I abandoned this thread! Hope things are going well. I'll check back before I go.

Take care.

Stillwed

Stillwed- I so appreciate you keeping in touch with me. I still have not had a chance to look at that. I will get to it. Right now, things are rough, and I have very little contact with YS, but I still want to pursue this.

My update today-
I talked to YS yesterday, he mentioned that he was going to meet with his high school counselor today, and thought that perhaps he could arrange a time for he and I both to meet with this counselor. He feels this man is a good "neutral person" he wants to arrange a meeting with the two of us and a "neutral" person. I am not sure what his issue is exactly, but we have had a couple of nice chats, so I think the timing may be good for such a meeting. I am not sure if this is something a school counselor can even get involved in, but YS is talking to him today, so we will see.

Was feeling pretty good until I got home last night and checked the message machine. WxH never calls to talk to me - only likes to leave messages, or emails. it is unfortuante. I have tried to be kind, friendly when he does occasionally speak to me. it would be nice if we could occasionally discuss the boys. But WxH seems to be carrying a lot of anger now that his perfect plan with OW has fallen apart.
Anyway, the message he left was "YS has been here 2 weeks now, and he still wants to stay with me, so we need to get the paper work started. I can write it up, just switching the custody between the two of us and have you sign it. Give me a call."
I didn't call him, of course. I am not going to sign anything to just "swith" my son over after only 2 weeks (or ever). If WxH wants to have me served, so be it.

this morning, he sent me the following email:
_________________________
YS is doing fine. I hope you got my phone message yesterday. He seems pretty adamant on staying. I have missed him so and it has been really nice
to have one of my own sons to be with everyday. We do need to get the paperwork rolling on this so I can get it in. Of course this will mean a change in the child support again. As you saw, I have been paying the correct amount of $355 all along. Still don't know where you and your
lawyer got the figure you did but that's my fault for not letting the state deal with this all along. I know now why you and your lawyer didn't want to go through the state. Guilt was a wonderful thing for you and your lawyer.
Anyway, not the case anymore. I see you are claiming that I didn't pay on some months. You know those were the times when it was because of one of the boys expenses. But if you want to play that game we can so I guess we will see you in court about that. It's all going to be a mute point because YS is going to be in my custody.
_______________________________

The part about money - about 6 weeks ago he filed papers with the state claiming he has over paid me. he had paid extra for a couple of months (long story - he was supposed to provide health insurance for the boys - but I could do it for free - so we agreed that he would drop the health insurance and instead pay an extra $100 on his child support, and save over $300 on health care)
Anyway, he paid a little extra for awhile, but for two years prior to that he did not ever pay the full amount. Sometimes it was a lot less, sometimes just a little less. A couple of months he paid nothing. So when I got something in the mail from the State claiming that he had overpaid and I was going to receive a lot less for awhile, I had no choice, I had to complete the "response" paper work where I filled in each month the amount he actually paid for the past 2 years. At the end of this, he still owes me more.
Apparently he still has selective memory loss - because he actually claims to have always paid $355. Absolutly not true. Sometimes he paid $350, but never once was it the full $355. Not once. According to the assitant DA, now that he has filed a claim that he has overpaid, and I have responded that he underpaid - the burden of proof is on him. My understanding is that we will eventaully have a hearing, at which time he is supposed to bring his proof. he will not have it though - it doesn't exist.
I don't even want the money - he can shove it as far as I am concerned. but he filed the paperwork to claim he has overpaid! The idiot. Also, the original decree says that he is supposed to pay me direct. About a month ago he got a chip on his shoulder and called the state and said he wanted to make his payments directly to the state from now on, not to me. he claims that this is supposed to protect him. it doesn't - it protects me. He can no longer short me. Also, in our state when you pay through the state - they automatically garnish his wages. Even thought YS has been there for two weeks, his pay was recently garnished, and will be again next month. If he were still paying me direct, I would have told him to keep it this month. I have made that arrangement with him before - but there is no way to stop it now - he all ready went to the state with this. And - now he is mad about that to. Claims that he should have been paying directly to the State all along. But that means he would have paid me more! He never would have gotten away with paying me less.
he is a compelte idiot.
I sit here today and cry, knowing that I will still have dealings with a mad man.
He also says in his email that "he has missed his son so much" but he NEVER SPENT TIME WITH HIM AS HE SHOULD HAVE!. That is the point I absolutely can not comprehend. He was supposed to take them both every other weekend but it didn't happen. it was about once a month. He was supposed to take them for 4 weeks in the summer - never did it. If he missed them, why didn't he at least take advantage of the time he had coming to him? He lives close by. all he had to do was pick them up.
I would love to hear others storys....

WOF;

I'm so sorry about all of this that you are facing...

I wish I could be of help but I don't know anything about the legal matters or with dealing with an WxH...

I will be looking forward to learn what you find out about your YS

Dear WOF,

Our little trip is on hold...H is sick and we are waiting for a call from the surgeon...yikes! This went from a simple hemorrhoid flare that wouldn't heal to a possible serious abscess. He just saw the doc this morning before we were to leave town for the weekend and said that he could not leave town. Oh well!! I sure hope it's not serious.

You are going through so much. I'm so sorry! Your H sounds like a real piece of work. I wish I was there to give you a hug. I HATE the selective memory and rewriting of history! It really gets me!!

Hugs,

Still

WOF -

I will copy this and read it tonight. I will try to post to you later tonight as well after I've read (and digested) this.

Georgia

GG -God bless you. I appreciate your input.

update-
YS school counselor just called me. Said that he has talked to YS - and he even called OS into his office to talk a little bit. The counselor sounds like a good man, and I so apprecaite him. I don't know yet if he is a Christian, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Said that YS seems to be doing ok. He said that YS seems to have a good realtionship with his Dad right now, and he wondered if I would consider talking to his Dad about a 50/50 custody. I told him that I would probably talk to his Dad - but his Dad is not civil with me. That even today I had a nasty, accusing email telling me to just sign over custody quickly so he could get the child suuport adjusted. I told the C that I was not going to sign over custody right now, after only two weeks - I would discuss 50 / 50 , but even at that I would prefer to wait a couple of months. I said that I truly believe that if the paperwork were started now, it would only be changed again in another 6 months when things changed at his Dads. the C agreed with me - he said that he certainly would not suggest that we change any paper work after only 2 weeks, and he was surprised that WxH was all ready pushing for it. I told him that in my opinion there was no reason to change it right now - that YS was welcome to stay with Dad, I have not made any waves. That the only reason to change it this quickly was for money reasons.
The C said that so far WxH has not called him, and he would not talk to him at this point if he does call, since he has established a R with me - and YS has told the C that he was welcome to call me.
The C reminded me to never talk bad about the boys Dad in front of them. I absolutely agreed, and I really go out of my way to never talk about their Dad in front of them. The C said in his years of experience, when 1 parent bad mouths the other, that always back fires. Even if the other parent is horrible and abusive, if you bad mouth them, it will bite you later. The child will eventually turn to defend the other parent, and it destroys your R with them.

I have read this many times, so I am ultra careful about that. but i do not think my WxH has been as careful. I have been on the phone with him myself, and heard OW#2 in the background saying that I was a "retard". I have no doubt that she and WxH feel open to speak poorly about me whenver they can, in an attempt to make themselves look better.It has always sort of bugged me - my boys always report that Dad says he has no money because of me. But I try to let it just slide off my back, knowing that ultimately my boys will know the truth.

C says that he asked YS - "you love your mom, don't you" and YS said "yes! Of Course!" and the C said 'then why aren't you calling her very much, and YS said he would do a better job of that. YS also said that the reason he wants to live with Dad is becuase he and Dad have more in common - they both like to hunt and fish. The C said that is understandable. I told him I agree, that is a good thing, but in the past year WxH has only taken him fishing once and hunting twice. So why does YS have to live with him for that? WxH was always welcome to take son fishing and hunting before, and jsut didn't.
C agreed with that too.

So, the end of the conversation went like this: C said "WOF I just want to assure you, that you are doing everything right. Just keep doing what you are doing, and YS will some day apprecaite it all. you are letting him have his space right now, and that is a good thing. This will all work out."
I know he is right - I am doing all the right things. i hear that all the time. It just doesn't make me feel much better when my heart is hurting.

can you and your H agree to put something in writing stating that as long as both of you continue to agree, your son will reside with H and under these conditions, monthly child support will be reduced to $$$$$. If either party should desire, the arrangment will revert back to the one originally outlined in the legal document?

i lived with my mother.there were no rules and i could do whatever I wanted too..still i missed my dad so much...i chose to move in with him....knowing that he had very different rules and expectations

i think it's wonderful that you have allowed your son to find out if this is really what he wants....

by the way....I did move back with my mom after a few years and then when i went away to college my dad's place become my "home" again

EAV-
just out of curiosity - why did you want to live with your Dad? You say that the rules were different there - that you coud do anything you wanted at your Moms, but chose to live with your Dad anyway. Were you looking for more stabilty with your Dad? Did they live close together?

And then, why did you go back to your Moms?
I am just curious how others have been through similar situations.

As for putting something in writing - I think it sounds like a good idea, but not yet. My ex is not being very nice right now, and I just don't see an opening for a conversation with him right now. I could see him getting angry and making demands that are unreasonable. it is sad that at this point, every time he gets angry with me he goes back tot he same old crap "you and your lawyer took everything from me, I have nothing, well now I am going to fight back, blah blah blah".
My WxH was not a very nice man even before his A. He had (still has) a nasty temper. he is a real yeller/screamer type of guy, with a horrible foul mouth. YS has commented before that our house is so much nicer without dads yelling and swearing. I am sure that WxH has controlled his temper for the past 2 weeks - but it won't last.
I hope I don't scare you when I talk about how my WxH is still treating me badly. I really think your h is different. My Ex was never quiet, or gentle. In fact, YS stood up in church about a year ago to talk about how he had recently finally been able to forgive his dad for all the yelling and screaming he had endured from him. it was quite an emotional speech that he gave. Several people at our church are shocked that he now chooses to live there, after hearing him speak about his Dad like that.

I am curious to see if anyone has any feed back on a seperate piece of this whole puzzle.
My WxH has married OW#2. I call her OW#2 because she was married when they "hooked up" (that is WxH's lingo for sleeping with a married woman)
I feel strongly that this M will not last. Based on the MB principles:
1. The r started based on lies and secrecy.
2. they moved in together right away to "save money" and neither of them had a chance to heal from their past relationships. He has never healed from his broken M, and also I believe he is still not over OW#1. She never healed from her broken M.

Do the usual MB statics apply in a case like this? He was all ready D from me - but she was not.

this is her 3rd M, his 2nd. As I recall, she is 70% more likely to divorce again. True?

I am trying to look toward the furture, and what I can expect next from this man.

Also - this woman is a little nutty. When she first left her 2nd H, she kept threatening suicide. A mutual friend told me that her H called the cops twice because of her suicide threats. My Ex even called me a couple of times, crying, wondering if I had heard from her since she had sent him a text saying she "didn't want to live any more. I love you. Good bye."

I can not imagine that they have a stable R - she was jsut doing this last year.

Any thoughts?

Honestly, I have reached a point where I would like to finally see him in a stable, healthy relationship. i think it would be easier on everyone, becuase he might not always be looking for ways to "get me". I just don't think this is the R that will work.

I was thinking that this might have a lot to do with your YS developing a closeness to your H..fearful that he would take his F's place in his heart..

My F is deceased and my M has remarried...

He's a nice man and means well but I absolutely HATE it when he tries to PLAY THE FATHER ROLE...

My sister, on the other hand..doesn't mind at all...

Interesting...

i loved being able to do what ever I wanted when i lived with my mom....i was the envy of everyone at school.... actually, i wasn't a "wild child".....maybe because I was allowed to do anything I wanted to...I didn't NEED to

but....it wasn't a "wonderful life"....my crappy mother even hit on one of my boyfriends (yuck!) she went out drinking allthe time and brought home bikers or guys not much older than me and my sisters....it was an awful life

but still not why i left to go live with my dad....

he left when i was in 1st grade...before then, he was my world....some days i would even go to work with him while he built houses and sit in the truck and watch him...and everyday when he got home from work, i would curl up on the couch with himwhile he watched the news and he would give me all of the pickles out of his huge salad....i thought he was the greatezt guy in the world...and it broke my heart when he left... i just missed him like crazy...and I was soooooo jealous of the woman and her 3 kids that he moved in with! then they had a baby together and i just hated her!!

i didn't move in with him until i was in 10th grade...and i lived in HIS house...one he had away from that woman and her kids even though he never stayed there....

but I finally felt like he was "my dad" again....that's what I got out of going to live with him....i felt like, after all those years, i got back what i lost

i went to a community college for 2 years while i lived with him. I was very lucky that he was the major influence in my life or i would have never went...my mom didn't care what we did in that regards either. towards the end of the 2nd year I decided i wanted to change my major from somthing my dad thought was a great career choice (a physical therapist) because in his mind...as a person who did hard labor with his hands everyday....any job in the medical profession was safe

when i told him i wanted to be a special education teacher...I wanted to work with emotionally disturbed children....he went nuts...he actually had a guy who worked for him laying brick during the summers to supplement his crummy teaching salary......

he wouldn't budge and neither would I....i moved back with my mom, dropped out of college and my dad and i didn't speak for about a year...finally, with much encouragement from the man i ended up marrying....I made ammends with my dad....and he agreed to let me pursue MY dream as long as i proved to him that I wasn't doing it because it was easier...proved it by getting good grades...

i made the deans list almost each semester after that...i never had before

later...my Dad would tell everyone with such pride (but a great lack of what's proper) that I taught "those rejects....you know, the kids no-one else can get to learn because they are so bad"...he meant well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

it's funny though because my dream of teaching special ed grew from the emotional trauma that i experienced from my fathers affair, my parents separation and the verbal and physical abuse i witnessed by him towards my mother all during that time, and the fallout from his relationship with that woman and her kids and his awful relationship with my mother and all of us

i wanted to help children whose problems were "forced upon them by life"

I taught these special emotionally disturbed children for 10 years before i was moved to a class with students whose major disabilities are learning problems and ADHD

i owe all that I am to the two men in my life who supported me through it all...oh yeah...i had a little to do with it too!

but faith,
your not the kind of mother mine was....and that's a blessing for your son!

i knew that my choice to live with my dad would be harder than staying with my mom....but i needed to feel that i hadn't lost him...one of the things that i give my mom lots of credit for is allowing me to go....even though it hurt her...and then allowing me to come home again