You guys are screaming for MC. Somehow, you and he have managed to turn a bunch of everyday, routine problems into mountains. I think every married couple faces similar issues.

(1) My W and I sleep in separate rooms, and we have a robust sex life. (I snore and she snores--but not during sex.) We do spend time together in the same bed--both for SF and also just to cuddle and talk. In the past year, we have slept in the same bed maybe 5 times.

IMHO, not having sex with him because he doesn't sleep in the same bed with you is whacky.

If the only time he wants to interact with you is when he wants SF, that is different. I get the feeling, though, that you and he haven't talked about ways to satisfy your legitimate need for emotional closeness.

So, how long has it been since you and he have had SF?

(2) As to your H not wanting to be like his father...he only had one role model--his father. So, he learned to interact with women exactly the way his father did. So, *of course* he did what his father did. He doesn't know any better. (But, let's face it--everybody's parents are crazy.)

He apparently has read some books on child raising or is getting lots of advice from his teacher friends. It sounds like he is trying to do a good job. He is not doing the most important thing a father can do for his children: Loving the children's mother.

(3) A clean house? Why is this even an issue? YOu nad he have to be making in excess of $100K per year. Splurge--get a cleaning lady that comes every week. Make the boys pick up the house the day before the cleaning lady comes so she has more time to clean the house.

Post deleted by Cherished

willing, what happens when you try to attract him back, such as flirting, appealing to him to "fix" things, etc. Does he respond to that at all? What was going on in the marriage before the affair that caused him to become detached from you?

OK - let me answer the things I can remember.....

Jimmy - I have actually started to respond to SF again, so it has only been two days now. I decided at the end of the year that things cannot go on like they have been so I have started to Plan A again. Before that, we probably went in stretches of 3-4 months without SF. I won't let that happen again....

I KNOW we need MC!!!!!! I desperately want to go - but he is adamant that he will not. I am thinking of starting by myself again, but is that even going work? It takes more than one to fix a marriage.

I was blindsided by the A. What my MC decided was that WH became detached from me after the kids came along. We focused on them and did not do enough to take care of our marriage. I agree. But, I cannot fix the mistakes in the past. We need some 'us' time, but we don't take it. I would LOVE to, but he will not. If we do things together, it is always with the kids. They are his WHOLE life.

Honestly, it is heartbreaking to keep asking him to do things (dinner, movie, etc.) and getting turned down over and over again. It is even a struggle to get him to go to things like a company Christmas party with me! Three years ago, I won an awesome trip to Canada from my job - you guessed it - WH would not go. I ended up taking my sister with me. Not what I wanted or needed emotionally. That is why the ski trip is like a 'trigger' for me.

How does he respond to me? Better than in the past few years, but far from ideal. Flirting is hard because I cannot always guage how he will react. But, I do think that responses are generally more positive than negative. Does that help?

What are his top emotional needs?

WH is not 'into' Marriage Builders and marrige counseling, so he would never agree to do the questionairre. I have had to figure out what I think his needs are.....

This is what I think are his top needs:

SF
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Physical Attraction
Financial Support

I also sometimes wonder if Admiration is one of his.... he comes of as not caring what others think of him, but for some reason I really think that he does need that more than he'll admit, you know?

OH, yeah - Jimmy, we DO have a cleaning lady already!!! That is what makes his insistance that that house is not clean enough even more frustrating and insane to me. SHEESH! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

(I understood that you have a cleaning lady that comes every other week. If that is his biggest issue, maybe the solution is as simple as getting a cleaning lady to come every week.)

You seem to be much more concerned about what he does than than "why" he does them.

Why does he want the house cleaner? You say his desire is irrational. If he is irrational, doesn't that suggest that his problem is deeper than "he is just a pr*ck"?

Why doesn't he want to be around your family? Why is he infatuated with the kids? Why doesn't he want to go to counseling? It doesn't sound to me like you have spent much time pondering this.

Given what you said about his father, my guess is that he was either physically or emotionally abused as a child, and has never healed. He may have been rejected by his father so many times that he has learned to hide his needs from everyone, including himself.

Most FWSs are have similar traits. They are egocentric and childish, with low self-esteem. "Admiration" is a big need for most FWSs--(being an FWS, I prefer to think of it as "needing validation". It sounds better.)

As far as the EN questionaire, it isn't required that you do it like it was a timed test. You could simply look at the first four or five questions and get him into a conversation about them. The EN questionaire, IMHO, is more a tool to get you and he talking about "the stuff that matters most in life".

ww, what if you quit asking him to go places with you and worked on a program of seduction and attraction? For example, if SF is his top need, put on something real sexy and FLASH him. Lure him into the bedroom and ummmmm, be..unladylike. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Flashing drives my H CRAZY and he has told me he LOVES THIS.

Do you try to look attractive? Do you stay in shape, etc?

Does he like to fix things around the house? What I am getting at here is that it is sometimes effective with men to ask them to fix things and then lay on the praise. Lots of guys like the admiration they get and they LIKE feeling needed.

And I wonder if this isn't part of the problem if you are the main breadwinner. He may feel like he is less manly. Even though he may say he doesn't have a problem with that, many guys DO. [my XH was a feminist, but he secretly RESENTED my being the main breadwinner and ran off with a dependent, dumb type] So it might help if you a) let him take the lead where you can, b)go out of your way to look for opportunities for him to show his leadership by asking for his advice, etc c) praise and admire him for him for those traits where you can.

I don't think the clean house thing is a serious grievance, do you? I wonder if the real problem is that he doesn't feel like a man and he doesn't how to say that.

When my XH left me for that bimbo in 1999, he brought up an incident where some baseball mother [at our boy's baseball game] said to him: "I hear that wife of yours is moving y'all up north with her company!"

And then the next day the movers called him and asked for Mr. MelodyLane. [my maiden name] This was stuff that happened 10 years before he left me but he brought it up! And he was deeply resentful.

OMG - You guys are so wise!!!!

I am sitting here so close to tears right now - things happened when I got home from work that have really upset me and I don't know how to handle my feeling. But, before I go into that, let me respond to a few of your earlier thoughts.

Jimmy wrote "Given what you said about his father, my guess is that he was either physically or emotionally abused as a child, and has never healed. He may have been rejected by his father so many times that he has learned to hide his needs from everyone, including himself."

You SSSSOOOO hit the nail on the head here. Hewas very,very rejected by his father as an adolescent and it has never been delt with. In fact, it continues. His father has done it to WH even while we have been married and it is very, very sad. The result is that WH has closed himself off from everyone - except the kids. They love him unconditionally (as do I, although I don't think he understands this) and they are the only ones that he lets into his little world. Otherwise, he hides ALL emotion and really does not even know what it would take to make him happy. When I have asked in the past what he would like for me in order to be happy, he does not know.

Melody - I can try the seductive thing. I will. But, as sad as it is, I am scared. I fear he will laugh at me, or put me off some other way like I am ridiculus. I do keep up myself - I am in shape and am fairly attractive (I hope!) Thanks to a 'What Not To Wear' weekend last winter compilents of my sister, I have a newfound sense of style that is great. But, WH never mentions my appearance. If I ask, I get a mediocre, uninterested response like 'you look fine.'

As far as Mr. Fixit - my dishwasher has leaked for over two years now and despite repeated requests for him to look at it, WH seems perfectly content to just have me keep putting towels underneath it. I finally had to call a plumber two weeks ago when the faucet on our shower finally quit working. It has been going downhill for probably 9 months but WH always said he would look at it "sometime." My car had a dent in the fender that needed to be pounded out. Would have taken 10 minutes and he kept saying he would do it. Three months later, my dad finally just did it one day when I was over there (I did not ask, he just did it.)

He's willing to let you wait. He would prefer a marriage like you have today to divorce. The question you need to ask yourself is this: are you willing to settle for the marriag you have today OR are you willing to risk divorce by letting him know that you won't stay in a marriage like today -- fish or cut bait?
Cherished

OK - now to tonight......

I realize that this is probably a perfect eample of what Jimmy referred to earlier as making mountains out of molehills..... But, I have all these emotions that I don't know how to handle. I feel TOTALLY rejected and left out. It may be for silly, immauture, ridiculous reasons, but I still feel this way.

Soon after I got home, WH got a phone call. Apparently, it was from one of his Jr. High students calling him about a sort of 'Sweet Sixteen' type party that a girl's family is having tomorrow. So, he is going to that and is taking our boys - not me. I told him that it hurts my feelings and makes me feel left out when he does this (there are other students that have things like this that he attends and takes the kids). We invite some of these families to when we have things like this and we don't invite 'only some of the family.' It feels to me like he does not want me to go places with him - why would the kids be invited but not me? He just got angry and defensive and stated that they just do not want me there. They invite the boys because the boys do things with them, but they don't know me so they don't want me around. Maybe he is right and maybe I am unreasonable for wanting to be included, but it just feels like he has found another activity to purposely exclude me from.

As this conversation was happened, he felt like it was a good time to tell me that he is taking $300 to turn in on Monday for a trip in May. He is going on a trip as a chaparone with the Orchestra (he has NOTHING to do with the orchestra, but went on a trip last year at the last minute with them, so now he wants to go again.) He said is taking the boys with him on the trip to Chicago. We did not discuss, etc. He just told me he is going and they are too. And, by the way, they will be gone on my youngest son's birthday. Talk about a knife in my heart.

Talk about it being a little ironic, since one of the reasons that he said he was against the family ski trip was because of $$$$. He's willing to come up with the $$ for a school trip with an organization that he does not even participate in, but a trip with me and my family is out of the question. The knife goes deeper.....

I told him, calmly, that I was upset and felt left out. He just gets mad, walks away, and says derogatory things to me. Then, he left to go to his Friday night poker game. (BTW, he plays poker somewhere that I don't know about with some people that I have never seen or heard from every single Friday night. It started during the A, so it had been going on for 4 years. This is another thing that really, really bothered me for quite some time. Now, I am just used to it. But, seriously, he has a standing poker night every weekend but he cannot ever do anything with me?)

I am very sad tonight. Things like this make me question why I stayed, you know? I do not want to live my life feeling left out and lonely all the time.

Anyone, please help me know how to handle these feelings tonight. I tried to communicate with him in an adult manner and tell him about my feelings only to get shot down and dismissed. I am hurting. I don't want to cry because my kids are here, but the tears are so close.

Cherished -
That is a part of the problem that I have created for myself.... my counselor talked to me about this issue quite a bit when I was going to see him.

I have been to that 'point' several times and have threated to leave, but I have never followed though. I have worked SO hard to not do that, but a few times over the past two years (2 times, to be exact) it has gotten the best of me and I have made the threat. One time, I actually had another place and on the day we were going to tell the kids he managed to talk me out of it. So, me telling him that he has to either work on it or I will leave does not really carry any clout anymore. I have to either do it or not. I just don't know what to do, so I feel paralyzed.

Reading a few other posts on the forum just made me think of something.....

About two years ago, I was at a very serious point and went to discuss my situation with my dad. He is a very wise, sensible, and caring person and I really value his opinion.

That day, he gave me a small frog made of green jade. He told me that if a frog were in a pan of water on the stove, you could slowly turn up the heat and the frog would just adjust - never feeling the escalating heat or realizing that he was getting closer to boiling. Eventually, my dad said, the frog would overheat and die without ever just jumping out of the pan. He told me that he wanted me to carry the frog with me in my purse as a reminder 'not to be a frog.' I think of that often.

Am I letting the fire get hotter and I'm just not doing anything about it?

Looks like I am on typing overload tonight....

But, while I am getting everything out on the table, I will tell you about something else that bothers me, but I am ashamed to admit so I just 'brush it under the rug."

I am afraid that maybe WH verbally abuses me. I don't know for sure and I have gone to the bookstore several times over the years to look for a resource, but I have never bought anything. I convince myself that I don't need it - that I am smart enough not to be one of 'those'. (Sounds pretty silly now that I see it in writing..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />)

WH has somewhat of a temper. The minute he gets irritated about something, the words start flying. He has called me everything under the sun, but the most common are 'ignorant b**ch" "idiot" and things along that line. He also manages to bring these themes into common conversations sometimes with comments like "only someone ignorant and lazy like you would not move the clothes from the washer to the dryer like I asked you this morning."

What do I do? Hope that a Plan A will make it lessen? Things like this add to the discord because I am so tired of hearing them and I get upset and defensive and he starts yelling and cussing more and then there is no chance of a conflict resolution.

He is not violent with me, but he does break things. The phone, the door. Never touched me, but had to replace some things. Am I missing some kind of sign staring me in the face? Or not? I feel like a loser because I just don't trust my own judgement since the A, you know?

Anyone out there? I am really down tonight......... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by hurtingterribly

HT -
You sound so much like I feel. I desperately want my marraige to work, but many times I wonder why. It is because I want the best thing for my kids - the 'mommy thing' you mentioned. I personally come for an extended family that is almost untouched by divorce, so the concept seems almost 'wrong' to me. I have always believed fully that a family should stay together - I just never imagined that it could get so goofed up.

I feel backed into a corner - like I have to choose between happiness for me or happiness for my kids. That is a no-brainer. The kids are my priority. I get goose bumps when I THINK about telling them that mom and dad are splitting up. I feel like doing that would be no different than just purposely running them over with the car. I can't do it. That is why I'm still here.

Unfortunately, I get those same goose bumps when I think about living the rest of my life like this.

I have the energy and the drive to do something about it - I just don't know what to do. Plan A and hope for more, or concede that it might not be fixable after all this time and move on.

Seriously, I can Plan A my b*tt off and do everything possible to fill his needs (I have done it before, I can do it again). But, I also know that the only person I can change is me. If WH is not willing to put effort into the marriage (he won't discuss it, so I can only assume from his behavior that he is not willing) then what do I do?

I feel so pathetic.

Post deleted by hurtingterribly