this is a very hard thread for the betrayed (our worst nightmare) to read but thank you all so much for being so honest. Really appreciate it.<P>I know its probably all been said before, and Im probably just a slow learner ;-)<BR>(maybe even in these posts), but can you put into actual words again *exactly* what are the things you are missing or the spouse isnt doing? Are there actual "things" or not?<BR>are they the same "things or needs" as before your affair or have they changed? <BR>Does having an affair mean that marriage can never stack up against it?<P>I try so hard but after reading this thread wonder if theres things Im just not doing cos Ive never had an affair and just dont "know" <BR>thanks

I read this and it really got me thinking and questioning this "in love" thing.. My H is currently going through withdrawal and I know he may have some of the same feelings as most of you who are in withdrawal.. I got to thinking about my H and I when we first were together.. How much in love we were... How much we missed each other when we were away from each other etc. etc... So we did HAVE that... both of us... and my H is the betrayer in our situation, so I have been thinking about how do I feel about him?? Am I "in love" with him?? The answer is no.. not like the silly way we were when we were first together....Its like everyone else wrote.. Its a mature love... I love him because of many reasons, but it is a choice and a commitment.. I am wondering how most of you felt about your spouses before your affair.. Did you feel love for them then and it has went away since you found someone new? Or didnt you not have any feelings for love for your spouses thats why you had the affair.. For those that did have some loving feelings for your spouse and got mixed up in the excitement of the affair, you are longing to have those "in love" feelings you had for your affairee, and because you dont, you think its wrong or it wont work..... I think the expectations are unrealistic... No one I know that has been married for a number of years ever has that romantic high for very long.. its just doesnt happen... I mean.... I dont think I feel any differently toward my husband than he does me... What kind of love we have for each other is normal... but the difference is ... his brain is all wacked out because of his affair...he compares the high with her to life with me... I must seem boring to him,,, and believe me,,, I am not boring at all.. its the mask of withdrawal.... I will guarantee, if he left me, in time he will be feeling the exact same way about her than he does about me... ''''that is the ordinariness of real life.... Like someone else posted.. You know how exciting something new is when you buy it and after a while its not that big of a deal anymore.. thats the way we all are... We all expect there is more to life than just everyday living... some of us get it and accept it and are happy in that others cant accept it and look for happiness elseware, whether it be alcohol, drugs, affairs... I would wonder how you would all feel in a few years if you divorce your spouses and saw what life was like without them... I would be curious to know if you would then appreciate them more or not... Some would, and maybe some wouldnt... The grass really always does look greener on the other side....some of the most unhappy people I know are the ones that really never get that it isnt, and they go through life chasing the green grass and they never find it... and they never realized they have it right in front of them if they look hard enough... Happiness is in wanting what you have....

Hi Mickey,<BR> I have to say I agree with you.I feel alot of resentment towards my H because of him thinking there has to be "more" or something is missing.I feel like he may never be happy with me because of it. Harley seems to think, however, that you CAN recapture that romantic in love feeling if you make enough love bank deposits...what do you think?<BR> I would like to hear from K on this....<BR>K, what do you think, is it only a matter of love deposits , how have things been with you and your W,does this stuff (MB) really work? Lu

Lu: I think I may agree that you may be able to recapture the love,, but I think it really takes a lot of work.... on both sides.. And I think sometimes people dont think you should have to work at it.. that it should just come to you.. I dont ever think my H will have the intensity with me now that he had with ow.. and that is just plain and simple....because we are at a different stage in our love than he was with ow... We had that stage...time for the other stages.. but I do think you can do, and try new and exciting things to get the spark back and not take each other for granted.... I am curious Lu... What finally did it for you H.? I mean what made him finally start to snap out of it... I am curious..because I think my H is finally starting to see clearer... I dont know what has done it for him... Maybe her moving a block away from us woke him up and made him realize what kind of person she really is... her true colors are starting to show ... just like Harley says...

mickey -- Hey, how's it going for you and Mike? I haven't heard from him in a while. So either he's not needing anyone to talk to or he's feeling way too depressed to talk to anybody (hope it's the first one!).<P>This thread has seemed to take on a life of it's own, hasn't it?! whew. I didn't think my original post would generate so much response. And I'm so sorry it's been discouraging to the betrayed's who have read it. I wasn't intending that when I posted. I was trying to work out my feelings and maybe see if someone could provide some insight.<P>Most of my feelings and thoughts are scattered throughout this thread and also in my other thread discussion with Hurtingwife. So I won't go over any of that again.<P>I just want to say that I am totally in agreement with the idea that "romantic love" grows into "mature love"... Yup, totally cool with that. But what if you never felt "romantic love"? My big question! What do the experts say about that?!? What would Dr. Harley's response be? Don't know.<P>I know many of you betrayed folks claim a "mature love" for your spouses. But when you found out about the infidelity, you were completely heart-broken! You felt betrayal and jealousy! Why? Well because you have that "loving" feeling, that's why! That's it! That's what I want. Right now, if I found out my wife had an affair, I couldn't say with any certainty that I'd be crushed. But dammit, I want that. I want a relationship that I'm afraid of losing.<P>--andy<BR>P.S. to sosad -- if you didn't see the other message, you're welcome to email me whenever you like. I discussed it with my wife, and she's fine with it. My email address is **edit**.<p>[This message has been edited by airheart (edited October 01, 1999).]

Yeah, this is pretty depressing. Makes me wonder if the wait will be worth it.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris

Hi Andy!! I am doing real good... So is Mike... I had been noticing some subtle changes in him over the past few weeks, actually right about the time we left for vacation and he told me about ow moving around the corner from us.. I saw some changes, for the better, but I dont really get my hopes up too much.. Then I get a letter from him the other night... Mike wrote to me and told me that he is starting to feel better about us, and is starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.. He says he knows now that his future is with me.. Said "hang in there sweetheart" and always remember I love you.. He also said that I was being GREAT!!! So.. it was pretty encouraging.. I am wondering what has finally sunk in with him?? Just time, I dont know.. I do think that the ow moving really opened his eyes.. It was pretty selfish and mean of her to do something like that... Its terrible.. We both have to drive by her house everyday.. The counselor thinks she is psychopathic... anyhow... I dont know but I cant believe anyone would do such a thing... I have just tried to ignore it... Ok... now to your question about the Romantic Love... I dont know the answer... I do know that my H did have that for me and he told me he had it for me for a longggg time... Said the last 5 years were the best years of his life... H used to get a little jealous of guys etc.. and he was always very afraid of losing me... Then ow entered picture and it seemed all that went down the toilet.. Things changed overnight... literally.. it was unbelievable... So, I am hoping H can get those feelings back that he had before,,, but like I said he cant compare them to the intensity of the affair feeling because they wont be that intense, but they can be real good again.. I thinkk... Without getting to personal... the intimacy in the bedroom has been incredible...!! I mean.. Like better than it was at first.. We both have opened up a lot since this has happend and I think it has made for some spark and some excitement! We both are pretty happy about that... I think my H is at least using his head a little in trying to figure this out... He can weigh everything, and everytime he weighs it.. ow doesnt make sense for him to leave a good marriage, a beautiful home, great in-laws, freinds... basically his whole life in order to have some fun for a year and find out in the end that he exchanged relationships and lost a whole hell of a lot in doing so.. Hopefully the affair wont fool him..... Its weird Andy... When Mike left and went to live with ow.,, he told me several times that if he could pray about one thing, it would be that someday he would be lucky enough to have me back again... He told me I am the only one he ever wanted to be married to... over, and over and over.. He never did want to lose me, almost like he just wanted/needed a time out to have fun and then come back.. Now I know why many counselors and Dr.s call it temporary insanity.. One question for you.... Did you really never feel in love with your wife at first? Why did you marry her? I am just curious.... Also... if your wife met all your emotional needs, do you think you could be happy? What needs does she not meet?

mickey, hey it's great to hear that you guys are doing so well! I'm happy for you. And envious I guess. <P>I know what you mean about the bedroom aspect. We've gotten better in that area too. I'd say it's better than ever. I wish everything else would follow...<P>I think I'm probably thinking about stuff too much. I'm just gonna give it a rest I think. I'm tiring myself out worrying about it all the time. arrgh!<P>BTW, if you're really interested in my story (why I married my wife, etc), check out my thread "to hurtingwife". In the course of my discussions with her, I talked about all that stuff...<P>take it easy (and Mike too!),<BR>--andy

airheart, good point about your thoughts if your wife had an affair. My wife told me recently, she was wondering why it did not bother her alot (or felt jealousy) thinking about me with another woman. I also wonder if during the courtship/beginning of a relationship if one spouse does not have that romantic love feeling, how it affects them down the road. If you never had it back then, how can you get it now? Also, it sounds like the physical aspect can override your emotional feelings because physical sex can be just as fulfilling. I also have been told that how you fight or fought in the past says something about how much passion you feel towards each other. Does anyone agree? My wife and I rarely fought and I would say never passionately. I do not express my anger outwardly, and maybe if that passionate <BR>fighting is not involved it affects how you both relate intimately with each other.

Wow, izzy! Great thought about the fighting! My wife an I have never had any big passionate fights either. In fact, our councellor mentioned that right away. She said she noticed the lack of passion in our relationship throughout the years. Not just in our sexual or emotional connection, but also in our fighting...

Andy,<BR> I'm always interested in your posts because my H feels like you do as far as not being in love with me. It's only been 2 months since he saw the OW and 1 month since he talked to her. He tends to have an addictive type of personality about work, hobbies, OW, but never did with me. Funny thing is,I DON'T WANT THAT type of relationship. He doesn't know if he EVER had passion towards me. Don't you think some of those feelings have to do with one's age and maturity level at the time of the marriage? Maybe if you met your wife now you would have those strong, passionate, in love feelings for her???? Once you have an affair and experience those feelings, maybe you tend to compare that with what you think you should feel in your marriage. I don't know, I question all of this as well. How is your wife doing? Where is she finding the strength to hang in there? That certainly is a sign of dedication and deep love which I'm sure you're aware of. I would bet she deserves alot and can't imagine that in time you wouldn't have loving feelings for her for her dedication and love if nothing else. Good luck to you both and please keep giving her a chance with your patience and perseverence. I personally think it's best not to put a time limit on it, but truly can identify with the frustration, anxiety, and fears. My H and I are there too!<P>------------------<BR>

Hi jennifer,<P>I'm amazed that you got down this far in the thread... it's really getting long now!<P>I recognized long before I met the OW that I was not really happy, not really satistfied with my marriage relationship. I didn't really know what I was missing, but I knew I wasn't fully happy. I remember having discussions with my best friend about that. We used to commiserate together cuz he wasn't happy either (and in fact he went on to have an affair too).<P>My wife and I were discussing last night how we really felt about each other. She's not really sure about her love for me either. She says that she's been thinking about that for a while now. The reason she wonders is because, a few months before discovery, I told her that I didn't love her anymore and wasn't happy. She was sad, but she didn't really want to fight for the marriage or anything. She was ready to give up. It wasn't until she discovered that I was actually in love with someone else that she really lost it. And she thinks maybe it was the whole betrayal thing that hurt more than anything else, plus she felt like she was competing for me with someone else, and therefore she didn't want to lose me to another woman. So, we're both really thinking about the whole thing.<P>In the meantime, we're enjoying our company together (both alone and with our son). We try to do stuff together at least once a week (we're not getting the 15 hrs that Harley recommends, but that really sounds impossible to me!). We've always been able to get along and have always been good friends. Just never had that full-blown passion. I think my wife thinks like you do; that the full-blown passion isn't necessary, and in fact she doesn't care if we have it. I kinda want that, especiall since I never had it with her, and I know what it feels like. I want to know what it's like to be in a long term relationship where you started out with the passion. Ugh... I always end up not being able to correctly describe what I really want, and everyone tends to distill it down to "you want the affair love vs. the mature love"... that's not really it...<P>--andy<p>[This message has been edited by airheart (edited October 01, 1999).]

Man is this a train wreck or what. I struggle with my addition to the OW a lot, but what I struggle more with is trying again with my W. I’m still kind of young and I think I could find somebody else and tonight I couldn’t go home to my W and kids and I don’t want to.<P>I can’t stand the thought of hurting them 2 / 6 / 12 months down the road. Quite frankly I’ve played enough with this fix it stuff. I’ve begged God to make things good again and just stop the pain – but it doesn’t stop it just gets more and more intense. If I was suicidal it would be over for me already, but because I’m not I just want to be alone without having to fix what was broken years before I ever met the OW. My affair started right around our separation and somehow I thought I fit into this category. <P>And I do in a lot of ways, yet I don’t in that I wasn’t happy for years. I should’ve got a divorce after 1 kid, but instead had two more just to complicate things.<BR>I just want to be alone on a desert island somewhere with either the OW or a case of beer. I don’t think I’m going to be able to stick this thing out. Either w or w/o the OW (who has already moved on) I think I need to do the same thing.<P>I believe God will not let anyone endure more than can handle and quite frankly I can’t handle anymore. I cannot continue to bear the pain and agony I’ve been experiencing.<BR>

Okay, you all have just about convinced me to go ahead with the divorce. <P>I know we had passion for each other. And it actually lasted quite awhile. We were together for 5 years before getting married, and another 3 before having kids. That's when it started to change (big surprise, huh?) <P>But whatever the reason, he doesn't love me now. And I don't want to spend my life with someone who doesn't love me just because its 'comfortable'. <P>But here's a thought. When I first started plan A I was doing a million things for my H. Every day I thought, "what can I do for him today so he knows how much he is loved?" You know, I think I fell in love in my husband all over again. Perhaps its like they said, you fall in love with the thing you focus the most on. So stop focusing on yourself or the OP, and just try making your spouse happy for a change. They certainly deserve it. And you might find it works wonders on you, as well.

fighting indicates how much passion ????<P><BR>NOT!!!<P>

This thread scares me to death. I couldn't even read it all. Here I am fighting to keep the tears from flowing because I miss him so much and wondering how I will be able to make it if he doesn't come back. Then I read thhis. Now I am scared if he does come back I am not sure I could handle his lack of love or feelings for me. I couldn't take it knowing he really wanted to be with her. How can you take more pain. I've never hurt this bad before. Somewhere in this thread I don't remember who said doing plan a focusing on her S made her fall more in love with him, I think she is right. And that makes it hurt even more when they do leave. I have thought about the fact he would go through a withdrawal, I think I can handle that but what has been talked about on this thread I don't know It maybe just one pain to many. How can one deal with this?<P>------------------<BR>di<BR>

airheart, maybe we should just trade wives . I really do not think it's an issue about affair love and married love. But what you are saying is having that passion at the start makes a difference. It really seems to for the people that have posted, it's like a foundation for the marriage which makes it stronger, and allows the couple to go thru daily routine living knowing they can tap into that passion and connect if they really try (like it comes out in fights, or when both are reaaaalllly in the mood ). <P>"I didn't really know what I was missing, but I knew I wasn't fully happy. "<P>Also, another thought and feeling that my wife had right before her affair. She and I had also discussed (in the last 18 mths) this missing element in our marriage. BTW, Mrs Mush, I am talking about fights, disagreements, strong discussions, not angry out of control rage type. Just those discussions that bring out the emotions in us. I am not an emotional fighter so I know that is hard for me, thus my wife and I never (i think) had a strong passionate fight/discussion. I am also a conflict avoider so that could be another reason.<P>My wife and I have always felt we had a best friendship and have always communicated pretty good. I still feel that our conversations might not have clicked emotionally for her (maybe she did not feel that way or allow herself), even though we talked alot. That is probably why everyone has been shocked about our separation since the outward appearance was always happily married, but the behind bedroom door lack of passion/inlove desire was missing for her noone knew about (of course). Well.. lets keep this thread going...even if it is a little depressing I find it to have been the most honest and upfront all of us have been in a while (lets got off the sideshows).

Oh yeah BTW, I had been meaning to ask how many of you in marital recovery have done all the four guidelines to recovery as Dr Harley talks about in SAA book. Airheart, I do think those 15 hours (or close to) are important along with the protection and honesty guidelines. How have those aspects gone? I heard of a good idea for couples to have fun. Play Twister some night just the two of you . Wear appropriate clothing and maybe some fun mood music.

Hi Andy,<P>I don't know if you've been keeping up with my story but I've been reading your posts and your story sounds so much like my OM's. <P>I've told my family about the problems in my marriage and how serious things are. Even though I haven't revealed the affair, like I've said they've seen his blowups, jealousy for little reason and completely understand and are very supportive. I spoke to my Mom last night and she said "honey, listen to your heart, your heart won't steer you wrong". God, that killed me. I know she means well.<P>I've been having extreme difficulty working with OM, I think we're both driving eachother crazy. I sent him a nasty email and then confronted him with all the things he gave me and threw them back at him. I know, not very mature, I was asking for trouble. He in turn got nasty with me. I get so angry at everything. Before I left work yesterday I apologized and said "listen, we're both here to earn a living and we both deserve a pleasant working environment, I think we both know what we need from eachother in order to move on and we should both respect that." He was very upset because I wasn't acknowledging him at all, not even a goodmorning or goodnight, so I told him I would try those formalities to keep some peace. He inturn promised to try and not look at me and leave me alone. He said, with tears in his eyes, I had a 2 hour lunch with my Dad today, my dad finally releaved alot of what he was thinking but was hesitant to say that he feels even though the short term consequences of a divorce are very difficult that in the long term it would of been better to leave now. I was shocked his father said that, I just said I'm sorry and I can't hear these things and walked away.<P>What a mess.

Hi everyone,<P> This thread is getting so long, maybe we should start another. Anyway, food for thought...**edit** there is a chapter about making yourself HAPPY and she claims people who are happy with themselves and their life in general tend to have happy marriages....what do you think? I know in my H's case he was depressed ,not happy with his job ,felt like he was getting old, etc,and then bam.....the affair was a great "fix".....he said the same thing- that there was something "missing" in the marriage but I honestly think it had alot to do with HIM.....probably way off base again but trying so hard to understand! Lu