Hoopsie, how is your situation different from evry other situation on this forum? We hear the SAME THING here every day. It does not mean its over at all. We have had worse cases than yours reconcile quite successfully.

The fact is taht your H's affair is based on a FANTASY and once reality intrudes into that fantasy, things will begin to look quite differently. See, the OW probably meets 1-2 needs of his, you meet 3-4. When you go into Plan B, this realization can pull him off the fence. It is not uncommon.

But you are making a huge mistake by pre-emtively throwing in the towel, unless you really want a divorce. This is far from over and you still have opportunities if you don't.

And this is just more of the urgent actions of a very WS who is conflicted and is lost.His answer to all his porblems right now is to get away as fast as he can from his life.He's running hoopsie.No you can't stop him but one day he is going to come to a very harsh realization or ignore everyone and everything to not face his demons.Either way he is a lost soul.All you can do is take care of yourself and make plans for your life.

O

This sounds more like a sick WS than true love. So the real question is what r u going t/d?

Please call Steve H @ MB and get a real plan. Talk to someone who doesn't just send out survey's and read e-mail but one who actually has a large number of success stories both for personal and M recoveries.

Is Steve the save all? No. However, the methods recommended and implemented here have been beneficial to many. I have been a poster here since 2001, some here have been posting longer than I. Most of us, waaay over 90% are true success stories....... remember those success rates are for personal and M recovery.

BTW, if this A of his is sooo great, how come he can't be more convincing?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Listen, we can help you through his babble lines so you can see the real truth. You just gotta go do some personal recovery homework 1st. U ready for that?!?!?

L.

He would be *delighted* by Plan B. He moved out shortly after D-day, and has rarely initiated contact except to speak to the children. I will be leaving town with the children soon, and will not be contacting him then either. He talks to her for six hours a day and flies to meet her every other week or so. There is no emotional or sexual need that I can fulfill that she does not, and he has nothing to say to me that doesn't involve the children or finances.

I can appreciate fighting to the bitter end. But he has filed for divorce. Unless I burn the courthouse down, it will proceed at its pace. I can understand that living in real life and not hot affair weekends may possibly burst the bubble -- but that's not going to happen until they actually DO live in real life. And they can't live in real life until we get divorced.

If he would be delighted by Plan B, then that means you need to be in Plan A for much longer. That's ok that he has filed for divorce, it shouldn't change your strategy one bit.

However, Hoopsie, it sounds like you are looking for reasons to just give up and that is fine. No one would blame you if you did. Just know that your case is no different and we have seen worse than this come back from the dead.

I'm really not looking for reasons to give up. I would like nothing more than for him to return home to our marriage and family. Despite having been betrayed and lied to in utterly breathtaking ways, I love him. And I am committed to my marriage vows.

But in all my new-found evenings alone, I have done nothing but read these boards and information on affairs, etc., and perhaps I am just stupid, but there appears to be real disconnect. Marriage recovery cannot begin until the affair ends and no contact between them happens, yes? And the affair will not end as long it continues to meet their needs or unless it crashes and burns for other reasons, yes?

*Right now,* the affair meets all their needs. There is no reason for him to give it up. They are happy with each other. They meet each other's needs. They are in love; in fact, they are ecstatic to have found each other again. If it dies -- and this research suggests that it will not -- then I guess we'll see what happens with us. But that all takes time, and meanwhile we're scheduled to divorce within a few months (and they are planning a wedding shortly thereafter).

I can't tie him to a chair and prevent him from calling his atty. At some point, people are free to do what they want. I'm really not trying to snarky or defeatist, but I don't know what else I can do.

hoopsie, the affair RARELY meets all their needs. Affairs are based on fantasies and when reality starts shining in, they almost always crumble. Not only is it founded on fraud and deceit, but his expectations of her will become unrealistically HIGH because he left his family for her. And remember, this is a woman of low character and this will come out. She won't be able to live up to those high expectations. Once his disappointment sets in, the lovebusting will start.

It is for that reason, that I believe you are giving up way too soon. You act like this affair is a foregone "success;" it ain't, believe me.

No one is asking you to tie him to a chair and prevent him from calling his attorney. He is absolutely free to do what he wants. But you shouldn't view filing for divorce as the end. That doesn't mean its over at all.

What you can do is stay in Plan A and as his affair crumbles, which it will, you can be there to pick up the pieces of your marriage.

What books have you read about affairs?

Frankly, the only need that she cannot meet that I can is being a mother to his children, providing the family life, etc. Other than that, what is he missing with her? She adores him, she "hungers" for him, she wants to spend hours talking to him, she wants to have wild sex with him. She has been doing all of that for a year, and it has not faded yet. I would have been happy to meet those needs if he were living here, but he never gave me a chance -- he moved out within a week or two of D-day.

If she is of low character, then no more so than he. Perhaps they are made for each other. But this isn't an affair with a coworker or something; they were in love in high school and, for whatever reason, have rekindled those feelings. I can see a scenario where they live together and start fighting over laundry and money and so forth, but we need to get divorced for that to happen. (And even if they did, he is a conflict avoider and would probably just live with it rather than divorce HER.)

I really am all ears for advice. But he has announced his intentions and unless she dumps him tomorrow, I do not see how his mind would change, how it is *incented* to change.

hoopsie, if you feel this strongly about it, you really should give up.

The Shirley Glass book, the Frank Pittman one, the Harley book. Frankly, Glass says that most affair marriages end -- *except for ones with old flames* which was depressing to read.

And Pittman has a little list of characteristics of successful affair marriages -- when the people are fundamentally monogamous and had never considered an affair before, when they feel guilty and sad for the pain they've caused, when they take it slowly and are cognizant not to introduce them to the kids and family too soon, etc. This all describes my H. He's not a wanton skirt-chaser. He didn't fall in love with the woman in the next cubicle. He's sad for the pain he's caused, he's sorry for what the kids will go through, he knows that people disapprove, but he's "doing what's right for him."

Maybe he's full of it. Maybe he's making a terrible mistake. But he is determined to make it.

Try reading Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley. He is probably the most successful MC there is and will give you a better understanding of the mind of the WS and the dynamics of an affair. The mind of a WS is about like a falling down drunk, and you are making the mistake of taking him too seriously.

Yep, I've read those too. HNHN is about "building an affair-proof marriage," and unforunately, that horse has already left the barn. SAA was more helpful, but he cites cases where the OP dumps the spouse or where the spouse discovers that the affair is more trouble than it's worth. Those two scenarios aren't happening here; in fact, the OW has divorced her H this summer for mine.

To recover from an affair requires the WS to commit to the marriage, take the steps for recovery, etc. When the WS is utterly unwilling to do that, my options (short of plan B) are limited. In fact, Harley says that the WH will always be in love in some fashion with the OP. People generally act in their own self-interest and, at this point, there is no *incentive* for him to give up a woman he is in love with, go through the agony of withdrawal, cause her tremendous pain, etc. for one he is not. The only incentives would be abstract ones of morality and duty, and he has already rewritten his value system to exclude those.

But those exact scenarios don't have to happen in order to recover your marriage and he never made that point. Like I said, we have seen far worse than yours recover.


Yes, in order to recover both partners must be committed. But that doesn't mean it takes TWO partners to get to that point. Remember Plan A and Plan B? They are SOLO programs that bring the marriage to the point where recovery can take place. If this were not the case, there would be NO recoveries here. There would be NO Marriage Builder successes. And there are many.


No, not at all. The most likely incentive is when the affair inevitably CRUMBLES. This is how recovery usually comes about. The average affair lasts about 18 months before it crumbles. Some less, some more. But crumble, they do.

But, I agree! You should give up if you feel this strongly about it! You don't have to convince me. It is your life, after all, you don't have to justify yourself to us.

But shouldn't you at least allow Steve Harley, of Marriage Builders: the most successful marriage recovery program there is, to assess your situation before you throw in the towel?

It makes that point, but it also explains how affairs start and how this concept can be used to bust up affairs. Did you see that part? It outlines how couples fall in love and stay in love. This is very valuable information for a BS who is trying to save their marriage.

I probably will try to set up a consultation before I leave town with the children. And I really have read quite a lot on this site -- the archived message boards, the articles, etc.

But I never did fully resolve what I see as a disconnect in the logic -- You can't work on the marriage as long as the affair is going on. And as long as the affair is going on, you aren't going to want to work on the marriage. And the affair will go on as long as the needs it meets outweigh the needs being met in the marriage. And the marriage cannot replace the needs being met in the affair as long as the affair is going on.

It's a vicious circle, and at some point in this circle somebody -- either the WS or the BS -- says, "Living like this is absurd; I want a divorce." Harley tells the BS to hang in there in the circle, through Plan A and Plan B. Unfortunately, in my case, it's the WS who has said "I'm slicing through this circle and letting the chips fall where they may; I want a divorce."

Sigh. I'm really not trying to be obstinate. I have done nothing but think about this for almost four months. It's just discouraging because he has never given me *one inch*. He has been intent on divorce from the beginning to be with his lost-love and at some point, I wonder if I'm just making an idiot of myself.

hoopsie,

I didn't read the complete thread but I still wanted to give my opinion.

If it didn't work out with your husband and his x-girlfriend then.........there were probably reasons.
There were matters that were disturbing and just weren't right between the two of them.
Obviously because he married you and NOT x-girlfriend.

He has matured during the years............correct and yet I think that he is living in a fantasy. A fantasy that is no different than any other affair.

His relationship is now based on unhonesty and sneakyness. It is no longer the innoscent first love that was honest and refreshing and didn't hurt anyone.

If it took all these years for them to learn that........well

They might have alot of things to talk about and they might have shared history but I thing that trust will now be a big issue.

Like most WS he will realize that the "fantasy" he is believing in and trying to live is far from "reality".

Therefore I think that he is in a "Romantic Affair" and romantic affairees have very high expections from one another. The possiblilites that a Romantic Affair Relationship will become a successfull relationship are low...........very low.



Read this again!!!! Ask yourself the following question:
How has your husband grown??
How has he became mature?
What qualities make him well equipped for a successful relationship???

If you ask me, this is balony and FOG talk!!!!
He's saying that he is mature and grown and that he knows what it takes to have a successful relationship and on the other hand he is abondoning his family and running from his marriage and he is lying and cheating.

He's simply trying to turn back time. He's in some kind of a Fantasy World.............this is far from being mature and it surely displays how far away he is from being well-equipped for a successful relationship.

I don't believe that they will live happily ever after!!!
An affair is an affair, no matter what!!!!

bb

But that's the point hoopsie.As fabulous as our WS's would have us believe OP are,they cannot and will not be able to be perfect emotionally fulfilling entities forever.They will make demands and screw up too at some point.So the Plan A and B are for negotiating the end of the A or protecting your love for your spouse and taking you out of the hurtful and unsafe environment of the A,respectively.

A's are not only based on escape and fantasy but also cannot thrive indefinitely.OP and WS's are human too and as such are vulnerable to all the same responsibilities,problems,heartache,depression,confusion we all are.They are not impervious.

Married couples have a history together,children(usually), a home,family.The OP cannot even come close to all that and that is part of what draws a WS back is realizing that everything is not so rosey with that OP.Sometimes that fastest way to come to that conclusion is actually moving in and then the fireworks take over when things aren't so "special".

I didn't have much of a chance either with my WH.He never stopped contact with the homewrecker even during what I thought was the most truthful NC he could do.It was all a sham and he tried to say the homewrecker had no part in it.Right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />Every time she spread her legs she was part of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> It's sickening.

You cannot change what your WH is doing so again,concentrate on yourself,divorce busting 180 and try to keep calm and keep your dignity.If he wants to run off and find himself or whatever,let him go.You are not an idiot but don't go chasing him either.

O

And this is the gap in your logic. You aren't accounting for the fact that the affair will crumble because it is based on a fantasy. The likelihood of it surviving is next to nothing. The affair is fraught with extra problems that the marriage did not have, such as the high expectations, guilt, lack of history, public ostracization, child support, lovebusters,[remember the OW doesn't have the benefit of MB] children frm the past marriage, etc. All of that erases the appeal of having 1-2 needs met. When reality begins to set in, the affair starts to crumble.

While you are trying to figure this out logically, have you noticed there are many restored marriages on this forum that faced the same problems yours did? [many worse] How do you account for that, Hoopsie?

I just don't think you have read the correct things if you have come to the conclusion that this is hopeless. Your situation is no worse than most. I have been here "reading" for 5 years and I don't see this as hopeless at all. Anyone here will tell you that I am not a person who would offer up false hope.

I hope you do follow through and give Steve Harley a call. Let a seasoned professional render the death verdict, rather than giving up based on 4 months of selective reading and a lack of experience.

I really do appreciate your encouragement. Believe me, after what I snooped on his email and such when he was talking about divorce and remarriage and "I've always loved you, I never forgot you, when I said 'forsaking all others' in my vows I didn't mean you, I'm not going to lose you again," within *weeks* of their initial contact, I could use all the encouragement I can get.

Frankly, I expect we will get divorced. Call it his fog, call it her pressure, whatever, but he is so completely motivated for this to happen that I do not see him changing his mind. He knows that I love him and that I would take him back, now or later. And that "safety net" allows him to see this affair relationship through to whatever conclusion may pass. If it succeeds, great! If it doesn't, great! He'll give me a call, pledge recovery, and I'll take him back because I love him and our family. And because I'm a chump. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />