Hoopsie, brace yourself because you're about to get a big ol' 2x4 here:

***Frankly, the only need that she cannot meet that I can is being a mother to his children, providing the family life, etc. ***

You sure are dismissive of this. Do you really think this means so little to him? Does it mean so little to *you*?

***Other than that, what is he missing with her? She adores him, she "hungers" for him, she wants to spend hours talking to him, she wants to have wild sex with him. She has been doing all of that for a year, and it has not faded yet.***

"Well she's a big sexpot who throws herself at him, and all I can do is care for his children and make his house a home."

You are missing something big time here. You think he's totally left you for her -- but he has not. Just like all WS, he continues to have needs met by both of you. She is no doubt meeting SF and Admiration, but make no mistake -- you are still providing Domestic Support for him 24/7 and he is COUNTING on it.

Want proof? Does he ever ask you how the kids are doing, or seem worried about them, or say that he wants them to come and live with him and OW? If he doesn't, it's not because he doesn't care about them anymore. It's because he knows you are there to provide care for his children and he takes this COMPLTELY for granted. Like all WS, is living in FantasyLand and continues to think that you will always be there waiting for him and that he can always count on you for Domestic Support - which I am betting is very important to him.

Have you ever taken the Emotional Needs (EN) questionnaire here on this site? You don't have to have him there to fill out his side of it. Just do the best you can and you will get a good picture of what his ENS are, what OW is filling, and what you are filling.

***But I never did fully resolve what I see as a disconnect in the logic -- You can't work on the marriage as long as the affair is going on.***

No, Hoopsie. The *WS* cannot work on the marriage as long as the affair continues, but *YOU* sure can. Unless, of course, you're going to just throw your hands in the air, give up, and hand your husband over to somebody else.

***And as long as the affair is going on, you aren't going to want to work on the marriage.***

Again - the WS won't want to do anything but sit on the fence in FantasyLand, but don't YOU want to work on the marriage? And don't complain that you can't do it alone. There's a LOT you can do on your own to start turning things around instead of just sitting there and taking it and insisting there's nothing you can do.

***And the affair will go on as long as the needs it meets outweigh the needs being met in the marriage. And the marriage cannot replace the needs being met in the affair as long as the affair is going on.***

Again, Hoopsie, we have been trying to tell you that he is STILL getting his ENs from BOTH of you. He ignores you because he assumes you will always be there waiting for him and he can get what he needs from you anytime.

Virtually all WS have the fantasy that this double life can work, that everyone will adjust and eventually you will all be "friends." I'll bet it's never, ever occurred to him that if he does divorce you and leave for the Adoring Sex Queen, you will NOT be his friend, you will eventually marry someone else, and his children will be calling another man "Daddy."

A lot of fighting back involves a big cold dose of reality thrown over the WS like a bucket of sea water. You have not done this yet. You haven't even started. Your WH is totally in LaLa Land, sitting on the fence and stuffing his face with cake.

If you want to start taking some action instead of just giving up, you could start by first taking the EN quiz both for WH and yourself and posting the results here. We'll take it from there.
Mulan

Do you have any idea how often we hear stuff like this on this forum? Every day. It is FOGBABBLE. And unfortunately, you are taking it seriously. You are taking the rantings of a falling down drunk seriously. You say he won't "change his mind." You are basing that prediction on the rantings of a confused, fogged out WS. That is a HUGE MISTAKE.

Go read Mimi's old threads and look at the stuff her WS said to and about his OW. Go read Bob Pure's. They heard very similar stuff and they are back together in wonderful, loving marriages.

And maybe it does move to divorce, that does not mean its over at all.

Well said, Mulan. She is pre-emptively surrendering to the OW. Perhaps she is French? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

p.s. if you're going to surrender, you're going to have kick our asses to do it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hoopsie, how much exposure have you done? Have you personally spoken the OW's H and her parents? What about your H's family? Have you spoken to them personally?

What does the OW do for a living? Does she have children?

Well, flipping through HNHN and in hindsight, his greatest needs probably are SF, admiration, and recreational companionship. Mine are conversation and family commitment and honesty/openness. Obviously, we each weren't meeting them very well, at least not at the level that can compete with the excitement of an affair

I care for his children very well, and he appreciates that. He is a good father, and if he thought for a second he could get custody, he would probably try to get it. Because of our circumstances, I will be taking the children and moving across the country with them soon and he will have a few weeks of visitation. If there was a snowball's chance in h3ll that he could get full custody, he might try for it but he knows that he wouldn't.

He's living in a hotel now, so I'm not really providing domestic support and I certainly won't be after we move. The OW gives him SF, recreational companionship, attractive spouse, and admiration. After he moves in with her, she will be providing domestic support for him as well. I would have been happy to try to meet all those needs but he moved out too quickly after D-day for me to try.

Did you see my last post?

Why are you moving across the country?

Yes, I told his family months ago. They are sad and shocked and dispprove of divorce, but they won't disown him. The OW and her H divorced this summer over the affair. Her parents "are happy if she is happy." She has a professional-level job and she has young children. I believe she is sharing custody with her ex-H.

I am moving back to my hometown b/c we are relatively new in this city and I have no support whatsoever here. My H will stay here for awhile and then probably move to the OW's hometown. He doesn't mind if I move b/c it frees him up to move to HER town.

So you have PERSONALLY spoken to the OW's H and her parents?

No, I actually don't know where her parents live, and I haven't talked to her H. I know people will say, "She's lying! She's not really divorced! Call her H, this is war!" but I've read enough private stuff between them to know that they are. This is going to sound stupid, but my H has not been lying to me about the OW and her H's divorce, relationship, etc.

She has probably been lying to your H. Remember, this is the word of a sneak and a liar. She may be telling your H this stuff in order to get him to leave you. It is classic behavior of affair partners to lie to the other about their marital status and then turn around and try to keep their spouse on the line while they carry on an affair.

I would not be surprised to find out that she is still with her H, and/or "working on her marriage" with him. Either way, it wouldn't hurt if you gave the man a call to find out the truth and see if he can give you any valuable information. He could also tell you how to find her parents.

And I seriously doubt she told her parents the truth, that her new "partner" is a married man with 3 little kids. That could be a very impactful exposure that would cause huge strife and embarrassment in the affair. Can you locate her parents?

sheesh, hoopsie, exposure is affair busting 101; I can't believe you haven't done any of this.

I know it sounds dumb, but I know they really are divorced. I don't want to get into too many details about it on a public forum, but I've overheard enough, read enough, talked to my H enough to know that they are. She left her H for mine, which is a huge incentive for him to stay with her.

hoopsie, are you willing to do ANYTHING? ANYTHING? I have just never seen someone so anxious to surrender to the OW in all my years on this forum. This OW is extremely lucky to have someone on her side like you, who won't lift a finger to stop this.

okok, I had better leave this thread because if Pepperband sees me beating my head up against this wall, she is gonna humiliate me.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ack, I'm getting whacked by 2x4s! I feel I've done what I can -- I've exposed to our friends and family, heck, HE'S exposed to our friends and family ("I want to tell you about an exciting new development in my life..."). Her H knows. Her parents know. I understand that people don't believe me, but at this point the major players in the game know.

Hopsie,
Did you copy the emails from my husband to his MOW? It sounds just like the ones I read. Yeah, they love each other, blah,blah, never stopped, blah, blah, never lose you again, blah blah.


WS's lie - they lie like big dogs. Come on, don't believe him. Expose to her family. Don't trust what he is telling you.

Do you want your marriage to work?

DO you want support to make that happen?

Did you come here so we can hold your hand while you hoist the flag of surrender?

We would much rather hold your hand while you fight the good fight. Come on, don't be a quitter.

Yeah, our husbands love being with the other woman that was their old GF. Why? It makes them feel young again. When they were young, they were carefree. They want that again. It isn't going to last.

Keep fighting!

Sigh. I don't know. I would want it to work, but to me there is a fine line between taking action and looking pathetic. There is a fine line between believing that someone is in a fog and respecting the fact that they need to own the consequences of their actions. There is a fine line between fighting and denial. And I'm trying to work out where I am on those lines in a way that keeps my already tattered dignity intact.

I can appreciate that WSs may get swept up into the headiness of an affair. Late at night, text messages, long phone calls, one thing leads to another. I can appreciate that there are things to do in response to that. But when you pack your suitcase, kiss your kids goodbye, march into an attorney's office, hand over thousands of dollars, sign engagement letters, draft settlement agreements, file papers at the courthouse, contact realtors, and inform your friends, family, and coworkers of your upcoming divorce -- well, I'm wondering if that's not the point at which I should wake up and smell the coffee. I think most impartial observers would say, "Gee, you think?"

If he came back, I would take him back. If he gave even the slightest *inclination* of being on the fence, I would be busting out. But those actions outlined above aren't the actions of a man on the fence. And it makes me sad. I've asked him about his feelings and he's said, "Jesus, do I LOOK like I'm conflicted?? What do I have to do, serve you papers? Oh, wait, my atty has the papers. Here's his number."

What has he proposed to do about visitation with the kids? And how old are they? And what do they have to say about this?
Mulan

Four to six weeks a year, spaced between summers and holidays. Three kids under 5, including a baby. Does that make you aghast? Me too.

Nonetheless, this is what he KNEW would happen if we divorced -- he knew that he would want to be free to move to OW's town and that I would want to move where I have support -- and he chose this course of action anyway. He asked for a divorce knowing that it meant he is effectively finished as a father, and he asked for it anyway.