No, no, I'm not doing his laundry NOW. But I was while we were still living together before D-day and while unbeknowst to me he was creating a wedding registry with another woman! The registry was created sometime last summer. Dear God.

I have been telling him that I want our marriage to work. But, c'mon! I'm wondering if I should go over to Babies 'R Us site and see if he registed for a future child with the OW while he was still sleeping in our bed. At this point, that would not surprise me in the least.

I will be fighting back by doing Plan B. Harley says either the WS comes back, or the BS loses all their love during the separation. I'd be fine with either option. A man who can do the things I keep discovering is not the man I knew and loved. The OW can have THAT man. I don't want him, and I don't want to talk about him.

ENUFF about him

what about YOU ????

Are you the woman you want to be?

and

When do you start being her?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, the woman I wanted to be was a size 4. I've lost 30 lbs on the BS diet, so I can check that one off.

I want to be emotionally secure and independent. I want to have a job I enjoy, and a life rich with family and friends. I want to be able to create the kind of parenting environment I want for my daughters. I want financial security. And perhaps in the future, I would like the love, support, and companionship of a kind, funny, smart man who shares my interests and goals. (I thought I had the latter already.)

Phew! What a thread!

Hoopsie, my heart goes out to you. Your WH's babble sounds a lot like mine (curse these SNAGs, I'd rather have good old fashioned male lack of communication than this crap), but it IS babble. He sounds together and sensible, but it's babble. Don't believe it. Someone who used to be a good father but feels that giving up paternity is "worth it" for whatever reason (the OW in your case, his "new life" and his "inner child" in mine) is NOT himself. People don't change overnight like this. That is, not in any real, longlasting way.

That aside, the thread has been an invaluable lesson to me! Thank you all, I am aghast at your strength and toughness and clear vision.

So, we had another conversation about The Issues. He says what we had didn't feel like a marriage, it felt like a friendship. He says he wants the emotional and physical intimacy, the "connection" he has with his first love.

I used to ask him over and over to come talk to me while I was doing the dishes, laundry, etc., but he would just sit on the couch and surf and watch TV. Nonetheless, I thought we had a companionship, a comfort level appropriate to a 16-year relationship with three small kids; he thought we weren't having sex and passion enough. Can a longstanding relationship ever compete against the excitement of a new partner, all the "getting to know you" feelings and flirtations?

On the one hand, I feel terribly bad that I wasn't sending him naked pictures of myself throughout the day like the OW apparently was and jumping on him as soon as he walked in the door; on the other hand, everyone I've talked to who has been married for a long time rolls their eyes at that and says "Good grief, how adolescent. That's not what marriage is about."

Which one of us is crazy? Is this typical speak for a WS involved in an affair?

I apologize if I asked you this before -- but did you ever take the EN (Emotional Needs) quiz on this site? WH doesn't have to be present for this. You just fill it out first for you and then for him, giving your best guess to his ENs. Then come back here and tell us how it came out.

The EN quiz can give you a lot of insight and show you what needs the most attention.
Mulan

I didn't take the quiz on the site but I read the HNHN book. Going by what Harley says, my top needs were conversation, affection, domestic support. WH's needs are probably SF, admiration, recreational companionship.

He knows I now have infidelity and relationship books out the ying-yang. At one point in this whole drama, I asked if he would read this book with me and he said, "No, why would I do that? I don't want to work on the marriage with you. I'm in love with someone else. Maybe I'll read about how to sustain a great marriage with HER."

Okay. I know that you are coming very late to MB (not your fault) and you are no doubt in shock with all that has happened. But let me ask: Since you're here, you must stil have some desire to save your marriage - right?

Where, exactly, is WH right now?
What are his living arrangements?
How often does he see the kids?
How often does he see you?
Are you in Plan A or Plan B?

Hang in there. There are lots of people here who will try to help.
Mulan

I would love some help. The situation appears pretty dire to me, what with his unequivocal statements, but what the h*ll.

Where, exactly, is WH right now?
At work right this minute. He is living in a hotel, where he has been since Oct. 12, a month after D-day.

What are his living arrangements?
See above. He has been paying the mortgage and bills for our home and charging the hotel and other assorted expenses on our credit card. As a result, we now have a monstrous credit card bill.

How often does he see the kids?
Sporadically. He used to come over to put them to bed every so often or take them for an outing. I had resisted letting him take them overnight to his hotel, but he is doing it for the first time this weekend. I am planning to leave town with them on Monday.

How often does he see you?
Only when he would come over to see or pick up the kids. We used to talk on the phone a lot, and I did all the wrong things -- cry, tell him I loved him, tell him how angry and upset everybody was, etc.

Are you in Plan A or Plan B?
Immediately after D-Day in early September, I instictively did Plan A. He continued to talk to her and announced two weeks later that the she was coming in town and that he planned to see/sleep with her. I was overwhelmed and fled with the children to my parents for a few weeks. When I came back, he had moved out to the hotel and started the D proceedings and I did the wrong things.

I used to say, "We've known each other for so long and we took each other for granted and we were focused too much on the kids, but I want what you want. I want to have a loving, intimate marriage." And he said, "I want that too. With someone else. I'm in love with her. That first love imprinted on me what love should be, all the fire and passion."

And I said, "WE used to have that too! But after 16 years and 11 years of marriage, it wanes! But we can get it back and make it better than it was before." And he said, "I don't want to *try* to make it better with you. It's great with her."

***What are his living arrangements?
See above. He has been paying the mortgage and bills for our home and charging the hotel and other assorted expenses on our credit card. As a result, we now have a monstrous credit card bill.***

Uh, what is this "we," kemosabe?

This is what I've been saying. He is not so independent of you as he thinks. Why in the world is one penny of your family's money being used to finance his stinking affair? How is it possible that "our" credit card is paying for this???

Call the credit card companies NOW and have your name taken off of any and all credit cards. If it's a joint account, he can skip out on it and YOU will be responsible for paying it off. (I used to work for a credit card company and this sort of mess came up all the time -- shocked spouses and ex-spouses finding out that they were stuck with the bill, like it or not. And no, the credit card company will NOT go after him for half. They don't care who pays it.)

Is WH using money from your joint checking account to pay for his fantasy, too? If he his, you need to get your own separate account to protect your own money from him.

Hoopsie, you need to get an attorney immediately to help you set up stuff like this. NOT ONE PENNY of your family's money should ever, ever, ever go for paying for his affair -- and you should certainly not sit back and let him run up your JOINT credit cards to finance his cheating!!!

***How often does he see the kids?
Sporadically. He used to come over to put them to bed every so often or take them for an outing. I had resisted letting him take them overnight to his hotel, but he is doing it for the first time this weekend. I am planning to leave town with them on Monday.***

He is trying to "normalize" his affair by dragging the kids into it. Don't let him do this! Again, get a family law attorney. You may need a legal separation to protect yourself and your children from his insanity. Please do this today!

***How often does he see you?
Only when he would come over to see or pick up the kids. We used to talk on the phone a lot, and I did all the wrong things -- cry, tell him I loved him, tell him how angry and upset everybody was, etc.***

Well, don't worry too much about that. You only told him the truth -- and no WS can handle the truth.

***Are you in Plan A or Plan B?
Immediately after D-Day in early September, I instictively did Plan A. He continued to talk to her and announced two weeks later that the she was coming in town and that he planned to see/sleep with her. I was overwhelmed and fled with the children to my parents for a few weeks. When I came back, he had moved out to the hotel and started the D proceedings and I did the wrong things.

I used to say, "We've known each other for so long and we took each other for granted and we were focused too much on the kids, but I want what you want. I want to have a loving, intimate marriage." And he said, "I want that too. With someone else. I'm in love with her. That first love imprinted on me what love should be, all the fire and passion."

And I said, "WE used to have that too! But after 16 years and 11 years of marriage, it wanes! But we can get it back and make it better than it was before." And he said, "I don't want to *try* to make it better with you. It's great with her."***

Yeah, it's real easy for him to say all this sh*t when he's paying for it with YOUR credit cards, innit?

Hoopsie - you have more power here than you think.

First step is to protect your finances and your children from his affair. Find a family law attorney immediately if not sooner.

Second - can you make an appointment for a call to Steve Harley? It's $185.00 an hour, but honey, if your WH can use your joint account to pay for his affair for MONTHS you can sure as heck use it for an hour to pay for something that might help.

Third -- keep in mind that once you do these things, WH will be FURIOUS. As I said, he is fully counting on the fact that he'll have your joint money to fall back on and finance his fantasy, and he's counting on being able to play Happy Families with OW and the kids.

Once you put a stop to these two things, his fantasy is going to get a cold hard dose of reality and he will HATE it. But it's the best chance you have of busting this up. Don't let his anger scare you. They all do the same thing when the BS finally stops enabling the affair -- and though I understand that you didn't intend to, letting him keep on using joint accounts and letting him drop in to take the children when he feels like it (especially to see OW!!!) is most certainly enabling things.

Stand up to him. You have far more power and he is a lot more dependent on you than you think.

C'mon, other posters, please jump in here and give your opinions of both Hoopsie's situation and my assessment of it.
Mulan

Oh God, I am so friggin' pathetic and needy. I just kept him on the phone for three hours -- crying again, telling him I love him, asking if there is any chance he would come back, telling him I would always hope and love him, that I was so sorry for all my faults and mistakes, that a divorce doesn't change what's in my heart, blah, blah, blah.

He was as cold as ice. Wants NOTHING to do with me. He finally hung up on me. He always hangs up on me now. Says it was an affair in the beginning but now it's a committed relationship. Says he's never changing his mind. Says he wouldn't come back if I were the last woman on earth and I should get a grip and give up hope. I kept bawling and asking if he could just give me a crumb of hope. I AM PATHETIC!!! I hate myself for doing this, I just hate it, but it's like I'll take coldness and rejection over silence b/c then at least I can hear his voice. Maybe other women can shrug and detach give up 16 years after a few months, but I'm just not strong enough.

And of course it doesn't work. Who in their right minds would come back to someone weepy and needy over someone strong and secure? Anyway, yes, I have an atty who is covering stuff like the credit cards, temporary support, etc. It's all in the draft settlement agreement to be given to my atty. I may be emotionally dependent on WH, but my atty isn't. I hope. But WH says we should do it amicably without spending too much on lawyer's fees, and I agree to a point. I have neither the stomach nor the money for a protracted battle.

WH is smarter than I am. He is more aggressive than I am. He is more detached than I am. Ivy League MBA, executive, 6-figures type. I've followed him around for his career for years, doing his laundry, being friendly to his friends, helping put him through graduate school, taking care of the house and kids while he works late or has business trips. And now he's throwing me aside for his girlfriend while I'm weepy and bereft. Hello, 1958 called, they want me back. Gloria Steinem is rolling in her grave (or would be, if she were dead.)

These men NEVER come back. When I was growing up, all my friends' affluent fathers left their wives -- including my own -- and the men never came back. They didn't always end up blissfully happy with their new (usually younger) wives, but they never came back. Some of the ex-wives got a grip and became strong and independent and made a lot of money selling real estate or opening up a business or something. If they didn't, they ended up alcoholics with loser second husbands.

I should pay YOU, Mulan. This is more therapy than anything I could pay for. I AM protecting myself, I think, but I have to rely on my atty's advice about what is customary and fair. He does this for a living and knows what judges grant and what they don't.

hoopsie, Hi!

I just want to tell you that it is *obvious* that you are highly intelligent and an excellent communicator. I really think that you should consider writing as a profession. You write beautifully.

I'm so sorry for your continued pain. Don't be too hard on yourself for the needy/clingy thing. With my first H, while we were going through the divorce, I was pathetic. I lost about 100 pounds, and I think it was all water weight from crying (funny, but not, you know).

Trying to reason with a WS in the midst of an affair is the same is talking to a wall. They *can't* hear you, and in fact, are often (as you found out tonight) cold and unfeeling. It's almost like they *have* to disengage, 'cause if they didn't, they'd have to face what they're doing. They can't do that. It's very dangerous to them. (Makes no sense, but there you have it.)

I don't normally write here anymore, except on the Divorce and Dating board, but tonight my H is working late and I had some time to just cruise around. Your post touched me. I loved the line about 1958 calling - that's the year I was born. LOL

Hang tight... take care of you... it isn't over yet.

PS: to Mulan,

You are so wise. I love reading what you've written. Really great!!

Hoopsie, you are not pathetic. You love your husband and your family and there is nothing pathetic about that. It hurts to lose those things. People will say, "oh, just let him go," but don't seem to realize it's like cutting off your own arm. It's easy to tell someone to do that when it's not your arm.

And don't worry about what sort of men come back or don't. Women in the '50's didn't do much fighting to keep their marriages, for a lot of reasons. But things are very different now.

Heh.

I won't debate you over who is smarter, you or your WH. I'll just ask you which one things dumping his family is a great idea.

He may sound cold and hardhearted, and what New_Beginning_II said is true about how a WS just doesn't hear you, but at the same time -- I guarantee you that you are feeding WH's ego big time by begging him to come back, especially if he has a high need for admiration.

You think you are saying, "Please come back, I love you and your family needs you and you are hurting us all terribly with your actions."

But all he hears is, "Oh, yeah, she still loves me even with the horrible rotten things I'm doing. She'll be there waiting for me forever and I can always go back to her for anything I might need in the future.

It's true. I think most active WS have egos the size of planets and it never dawns on them that the BS will not pine away and wait for them forever.

So, again, you have to show them that it ain't necessarily so.

OKAY: WHO'S GOT THE 180 LIST?

These are things from another website that are often used here. I think they might help you right now.

SOMEONE PLEASE POST THE 180 LIST FOR HOOPSIE!

And thanks for the kind words, guys, but all I know is what I read here.
Mulan

hoopsie, check out the post I bumped up for you. Hey CarolKH...can you elaborate on your story....GREAT plan A w/ 180.

A couple of 180's I did that WH noticed...got rid of king size bed and got full size bed...took down wedding pictures...went to a concert w/o him....didn't answer phone every time he called...made his favorite dinner but didn't save him any...new matching bra and panties...erased numbers off my cell phone in his presence (my mom... he,he,he) Did outdoor chore he usually does.

edited to add:
nah....he just thinks he is. Which makes him a very smug WH. Keep posting we will guide you through...you've already laid the ground work...you know what he expects of you...what he doesn't know is that you are now privy to the WS script. Its your ending to re-write!

Hoopsie, you're getting some brilliant advice here. And you are NOT pathetic. Some people might be able to shrug off 16 years, but you have to ask what kind of people (or 16 years) they are! You're not one of them. NEVER feel pathetic for asking back what he promise you that you would always have.

Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list

Divorce Busting (this is the website link)

HERE is a post I’ve sent to a BH last year on suggestions how to combine plan A with the 180 degree strategy.

Well, gee, I think I've done everything on that list of what NOT to do. Thank you for posting that.

Hoopsie

Call our KiwiJ. she had an 'exit' affair with an old flame.

She and her BH are doing fantastically well in recovery now, despite her intense affair with her first love.

I vaguely remember reading her story when I was surfing the site. I think she said the only thing that stopped her from bolting her marriage is the OM wouldn't leave his. Er, mine is, unfortunately.

I would love her input here, though. How do I get her to look at the thread?

Okay hoopsie, look.

Dr. Kalish is a psych professor. This semester she's teaching Child Psychology (psych 148), Field Work in the Teaching of Psychology (psych 195), and Developmental Processes (psych 251).

She doesn't list her peer-reviewed work anywhere that I could find. She's got a PhD, so such work must exist. Her faculty page at CSUS (where academics typically post an academic CV including a list of publications) is a redirect to her commercial site, with a disclaimer that states,

"Information on the redirected site represents that of the owner and not that of California State University, Sacramento."

She has written a book. The world of publishing is often a refuge for scientists who are unwilling, unable, or unsuccessful in presenting their work for peer review. I'm talking about scientists who have "gone off the reservation", so to speak.

It's also more lucrative to publish a book than it is to do your academic research in the traditional, check-out-my-Nobel-prize sense.

I'm not suggesting this woman is lying, or unscrupulous, or even that her research is bogus. I'm saying I don't know and that it's possible.

I also get the impression that she quite strongly advises married people against reaching out to their high school sweethearts. So I don't see any reason to run her down. Possibly I missed something.

Anyway, there are enough questions about this work that you ought to think twice before you let it influence your emotional state, which is taking one he!! of a beating right now and needs a little slack.

Hanging your hopes on the end of your spouse's affair is no fun. Believe me, I know. Tear your gaze away from that roulette wheel if you can, and try to hold your focus on the things you can actually change.

GC