wow this was really hard to read!!

was it really a lifestyle of deception??? that sounds so harsh. and i'm not trusting myself enough to know if you are being too harsh or if i am not looking at reality.

you say it was a lifestyle, to me a lifestyle is what a person does everyday. what she did occured over a weekend. yes she choose to hide it, but do you really think that was a daily choice, did she lie about other things too??

i hope you have not run off, i know these are tough questions. but they are good ones.

why are you not divorcing her?

why are you still living as man and wife?

how can you justify living as man and wife (unless you have not had SF since d-day) and still sit on some fence.

I guess Todd I just don't understand what you mean by consequences. Was there an STD? An unplanned pregnancy? You were hurt. You were deceived. Yes, we all agree. It sounds to us that cruise is trying to change and trying to redeem herself. What else do you need from her?

Todd,

Thank your lucky stars your WW wants to work on M. Mine doesn't and is not remorsefull at all.

Todd/Cruise:

I was asked to come over to this thread to hopefully shed some light for both of you since my sitch was eeirly similar to yours. If you want background on my story, you can find it on many previous threads. However, I am proof that MB principles when applied properly can build a marriage post-A that is much more fulfilling and intimate than you could imagine pre-A. It is hard work though and must be done by both the WS and BS with a committment to work through any and all problems...both pre-A, the A itself and post D-Day.

As SC stated in her post above, it was more than 10 years after the A happened when I found out. But I think just as Todd has indicated, I knew something happened immediately after my wife returned from her trip with her family. The problem for both sides is that when something is suspected but not confirmed for many years, it starts a cycle of self destructive behavior on both sides that creates walls in the marriage and then regardless of the things that led up to the A, the marriage can go nowhere because of the walls and it turns to "crap" as Cruise stated. The behaviors that are exhibited when the WS is trying to keep the dirty little secret forces him/her to compartmentalize their lives. This is a self preservation mechanism for the WS that seems to be the right thing but normally has devastating consequences to both parties. First is the ability for the WS to easily justify additional dishonesty in the relationship. My FWW once said that if she could lie to me about being involved with someone else, it made it pretty easy to lie about how much she paid for a new purse that she couldn't afford. Affairs thrive in secrecy and dishonesty. Marriages thrive with radical honesty. This is the first thing that you both have to commit to if you truly want to rebuild your marriage.

Todd, you have to be able to make a decision if you want to rebuild this marriage or not. This decision is yours and yours alone. When Cruise made her poor decision she took the risk that she could lose you in the process. I can't tell you how long that it should take you to make that decision but I can tell you that you have not been in recovery for two years, you have been in the decision making mode for two years. There are some things that you must be able to do if you want to stay committed to this marriage, to wit:

1) Can you move forward at some point and accept and forgive Cruise for what she did many years ago?

2) Do you believe that the person you are married to today is the same person who made the poor decisions in the past? If she has changed, what is different about her that makes you feel safe that you will not be put in that position again?

3) Do you believe as a Christian that God commands (not asks) you to forgive those who have trespassed against you? This is predicated with repentance by the individual, etc. but ultimately is not a choice for the Christian wanting to be more Christlike.

4) Is Cruise willing to do everything she is able to do to make your environment safe and let you feel protected?

If you chose to leave the marriage, there is no judgement against you. Even the Bible gives you that option. However, if you remain in the marriage, you must be able to get to a point at some time that will allow you to move forward with your marriage and grow as a person and accept your wife for what she is...a human who has made mistakes and takes responsibility for those mistakes. Should there be consequences for her mistakes....absolutely, you both have already endured a lot of them...the inability to truly share with your spouse, the guilt and shame that a WS must endure internally, the potential for the loss of the marriage...is that not enough already?

Cruise, in reading your posts and Todd's posts I believe from my own experience that the fundamental issue keeping both of you from moving forward is the lack of honesty in the past. This is really tough for the BS when there has been a long delay between the A and D-Day. Todd's natural reaction once this deciet is discovered is to not believe anything that has occurred between the A and now. I have felt/sometimes still feel the same way. Don't judge him for these feelings, try to understand why he feels this way and do whatever you can to rebuild the trust between you. This burden is totally on you. He has to feel like that you have changed in ways that would never allow this mistake to happen again. He will only be able to do this over time as you prove to him that you are different. If a marriage has radical honesty, it is much more difficult for an A to occur. You have to dig deep to find out why you allowed yourself to make those decisions in the past and what is different to keep you from making those decisions in the future. My guess is that the EN that Todd was not meeting when the A occurred was your need for admiration. The OM said all the right things, made you feel young, beautiful, vibrant, etc. (words right out of my FWW's mouth). You have to share those things with Todd and honestly look at what the environment of the M was prior to the A that allowed you to feel justified to have those needs met outside of the marriage. Spill your guts, don't try to protect Todd. Some things may hurt him further and may even make him decide that he cannot overcome this in your marriage. That is the risk that you took at that fateful moment. But if he can understand how that you were able to justify your actions at the time and how badly you felt after it happened, he can move forward..either with you or without you. That unfortunately is the choice that you made many years ago but it is THE consequence of your actions.

With a policy of radical honesty you will both find out where your safe zones are and how to allow the other person to feel protected when they are out of their safe zone. My safe zone is our bedroom. It is undefiled and only my family is allowed in there. When I am outside of my safe zone, I have to find ways to feel protected by my FWW. Through radical honesty I have told her how to do this...contact when she is away, touching, caressing when she is near, receptive to signals that I am moving back into an obsessive mode and reassurance that she is not the same person who was once a vile, venom filled WW who justified her actions because she was selfish and didn't have her needs met by me.

I could write all day and probably still just say the same things. It looks like to me that both of you have work to do to truly get into a recovery mode. Start with radical honesty. Spend time together to discuss any issues that will help you not only move forward but truly get to understand your spouse. I have been married 18 years. In less than six months through the MB principles I have learned how to anticipate what my W is thinking, needing, wanting and she is able to do the same for me. When you get to a point that you know that you both can work through this, renew your wedding vows and then start your real marriage from that point forward.

Best of luck and hope this helps.

NT

"This is not someone I knew who made a big mistake. This is about someone I never really knew"

I feel exactly the same way, Todd. I think most of us question whether we ever knew our WS's.

These are the kind of things you need to consider, and although it is frightening to think about, your marriage will be stronger in the end. I'm sorry, but I think that those here who just "forgave" their spouses in a month or two are headed for trouble down the road.

I'm divorcing, and it took me 3 years to forgive my husband. And I still question what kind of man he is. Before D-day he was an honorable, good man. He had many fine qualities. After D-day I realized that he was no longer someone I wanted in my life. It was his choice not to eliminate the other woman, so it was easier for me.

I suggest that you continue thinking about this, and discussing it with Cruise.

One thing that she needs to do is figure out the message of the affair.

[quoteI'm sorry, but I think that those here who just "forgave" their spouses in a month or two are headed for trouble down the road.

I'm divorcing, and it took me 3 years to forgive my husband. And I still question what kind of man he is. Before D-day he was an honorable, good man. He had many fine qualities. After D-day I realized that he was no longer someone I wanted in my life. It was his choice not to eliminate the other woman, so it was easier for me.

[/quote]

Believer, I have read many of your posts and have respect for your insights. However, I think it is a big mistake in the process to make generalities about the timetable for any individual. A's follow the same general rules, but every BS is an individual with different thought processes, attitudes and needs. Some can move forward quickly, others may never move forward. To each his own.

As for those who forgive too quickly heading for trouble, I disagree with this blanket statement. Those who move forward quickly generally are those who make all their decisions quickly and commit to that decision over the long term. They are the best business people and also habitual impulse shoppers. But they also have the ability to wade through all the junk associated with a decision and be able to make that decision based on the circumstances and facts available at that time. The advantage to this approach for those who are able is that they can truly begin to focus on making their marriage better with additional LB's early in the recovery process. The early stage is the toughest. Even down the road after forgivenss has occurred and the BS has accepted their FWS's actions, they will still have down days and tough times. It is a rollercoaster regardless of the ultimate outcome. Forgiveness and acceptance is not forgetting. But true recovery starts when the focus is on the present and future instead of the past.

Todd, as for your comment on the pattern of deceptiveness over more than 1/2 of your marriage....I so know how you feel. The trouble with the delay in honesty from the FWW is that it is normal to question everything that happened from that day forward. You will also remember the bad and the other deceptions more than the good things that happened since then. That is why that it is important that if you choose to stay in this M, you are able to focus on the present and future.

NT

Cruise, after reading this, I literally felt sick to my stomach, and had to have my H pray for me right then.

If you have to live like a prisoner due to your H unforgiveness, and lovelessness, you may have to consider divorce yourself.

Cruise you are forgiven, and covered by the blood of Jesus who cleanses us from all sin.

You have confessed your sin. It's up to Todd to now forgive you, and make a commitment. I have had to forgive my H 70x7. Thats how much I have been forgiven.

I think Todd is more Wayward than you ever were Cruise.

Blessings,
Lady

notoday -

I'm happy you showed up here. I think you can be much more helpful to Todd and Cruise, as you have been through it, and seem to have a good understanding of his feelings.

Cruise, BTW, where are you? I see you started both threads, but only Todd has been speaking. Are you okay?

Lady

Todd:

Since you have professed to your beliefs in Christianity, let me give you a perspective that I have now that I didn't really understand before D-Day.

On Good Friday, many years ago, our lord Jesus Christ died on the cross to forgive our sins, not his own sins. That sacrifice was more than any of us could expect. But the thing that is never really considered is his human emotion side. He was after all both God and Human. He had been betrayed by the entire world and forced to suffer an excruiating death and the betrayal of many of those who "loved" him.

There is no betrayal that is a good betrayal and I cannot excuse the choices that both your and my wife made. But I can understand that as painful as that betrayal was, it pales in comparison to the betrayal that Christ endured as a human. Yet, the God in him still chose to forgive all even to the last breaths "Father forgive those who know not what they do". Jesus did shed his blood to forgive the sins of the world, because of his sacrifice, we must as Christians try and forgive those just as Christ does. Easier said than done, but the message from God is clear.

Another thing that I recently heard on EWTN from the international sponsors of Retroville. Each of our path is chosen by God and their is little that we can do but to follow that path. Does God make us commit adultery, absolutely not...but he does give us the free will to commit those sins and at the exact same time the path to redemption from those sins.

Another thing this couple said is that when they first decided to go to Retroville, she wanted to go because she new that she was right. He wanted to go to pacify her. I couldn't help but relate that to our first MC experience (shortly after the A ended but long before D-day). They learned though that in a true marital relationship, one being right doesn't make the other one wrong. As they were able to communicate their true feelings and support their conclusions while at the same time respecting the other persons conclusions instead of spending all their energy defending their position, they grew as a couple and began to enjoy the intimacy that all marriages should strive for.

Believer, thank you for your comments. I did not say that to be derogatory to you in any way, rather just to point out that the process is different for everyone. That is why it is important to get so many different view points on this board including both the WS and the BS.

If any of us can relay our personal experience to another one closer to the pain of what has happened to all of us here and in the process give them some guidance on what decisions they should make without judgement of what that decision is, then we have done our duty as a fellow human and will be rewarded someday in eternity.

NT

Todd & cruise

I dont think you two are much different from many experinces here.

Cruise, I do think you need to accept that Todd doubts EVERY moment of his life with you from that ship cruise with your mum.
Every word you spoke of love, of joy, of intimacy is like bitter ash in his mouth.

He looks back and sees deception and lies and is simply not willing right now to let you hurt him again.

The other thing is that as a FWW myself I KNOW I changed the past history of my relationship with my H to suit MY guilt and remorse. I cannot but think that you did this as well & that your past behaviour drove your H away bit by bit as a defence coping mechanism for the guilt you felt.
You say he closed himself emotionally to you BEFORE he knew about the A ... can you honestly say you did not help move him that way? I have to say I couldn't & would not be surprised if other FWW have not done the same. You see that protects us, its a good excuse for us to cheat.
WHEN YOU LEFT HIM WAS IT RUNNING AWAY??? That would be my supposition. I do think that the cause for the separation as your H being 'emotionally unavailable' is a bit of an excuse.

I feel you will need to look at this pretty closely cruise and see what actions you have carried out over the years contributed to his behaviour.

Todd

a simple question ..WHAT do you want your wife to do or say to address your feeling of justice??

You talk alot about it but WHAT is it YOU want?

If you say well thats in GODS HANDS, WHY ARE YOU questioning HIS decision?
If you cannot see the agony your wife is in then you are blind.
SHe sees YOUR agony & pain, she knows she put most of it their, she knows that the most innocent remark twists the knife in your wound a little deeper and has NO idea what she can do to help. SHe sees you bleeding knowing she did this and her 'punishment'your ''justice' is that she must watch it all powerless to stop it.

Not one person will say you are not entitled to be angry and hurt and feeling all that you are. Of course you would be foolish to trust her..she betrayed you & doesn't know why.
Todd she is suffering the consequences of her actions and sadly so are you.

Todd & cruise, there is a lot of work you both need to do to just start recovery. Cruise you do need to know why ou cheated and be able to demonstrate why it wont happen again. It is one of TODDS GREATS FEARS AND WOUNDS ..you need to find out.
Todd you need to work on being able to show emotions and share yourself with cruise, but you will only be able to go so far until you can see for yourself that she is worthy of your trust.

But dont give up, the seeds of recovery are there, but both of you need to face some tough moments.

all the best

Nottoday - I'm glad you are here. You are absolutely correct - we all deal with things differently. I think those of us who failed to save the marriage really got the easy gig. Recovery is the real fight. Blessings to you.

AW - There you are - my favorite.

Todd - If you don't think that former WW's have any consequences, check out AW's threads sometime. She has had a horrible time forgiving herself. But her marriage and family are now thriving.

Lots of posts to read through...

Cruise's job as a teacher usually precludes her posting during the day, whereas mine is more flexible in that regard. I'm certain she will be reading and responding as soon as she can get to it. In the meantime...

Ladysheep -- you wrote to Cruise

I thought that was a little over-the-top. I'll be sure to discuss it with Cruise. If she feels that way, I'm sure she will post it, as I ask absolutely no restrictions on what she posts here -- we want to get the best insight available. She asks no restrictions of me either. I just got the sense from reading your posts that you're concerned about Cruise being "controlled" by me here. Perhaps I read too much into it.

FL -- no, I have not run off (and neither has Cruise). I am working at this, so I want to get a great deal of perspective from others in addition to the counseling.

nottoday -- too much to respond to for now! I'll have to spend some time re-reading and chewing on your posts.

believer -- it took you 3 years to forgive and you question those who could forgive very quickly. I guess I am more on your side of average. I have not given up and I have not stopped working at it. I simply haven't reached that point yet. I suppose for others who reach it more quickly...they must have a hard time understanding why I don't "get on with it." BTW, I don't always take a lot of time to make a decision, although that is my preferred choice. Many times in business, I have to make snap judgements and live with the consequences.

aw -- lots of good stuff requiring more in-depth reading and thinking (I choose not to make a snap judgement...).

ff -- no STDs or pregnancies. It just reminded me that when Cruise and I were doing fertility treatments (pre-A), one of the tests showed a potential STD. Cruise's mom (her cruise-mate) tried hard to convince her I must be having an A. That is one of those things that has been questioned by me since D-Day...I know I didn't have an A and this was prior to the known A, so how exactly did that happen? Likely just a problem with the test. I never questioned this before D-Day, but you bet I still have a slight bit of uncertainty since. Also, I guess we are "lucky" in a sense that Cruise could not get pregnant, as that would be a real possibility with her A. Of course, then I would have at least known sooner...

All -- keep it coming. I won't see the C again until next Thursday, so there's still time to get a lot done between now and then.

Todd

"Likely just a problem with the test"

Huh???

This just adds more doubt in my mind. Someone who can have an affair on a cruise, with her mom present, and keep it a secret for that long is a hard person for me to trust. Yes, I'm probably cynical. I didn't use to be until I saw how treacherous a partner can be.

I'll be interested in seeing the reason she thought she had the affair.

I'm just very concerned about what this sort of environment is doing to the children. They have to be picking up on some of this. We're nearly three years into recovery in our home and I can't even imagine the impact it would have had on ours if I'd not chosen to do everything in my power to forgive and rebuild the family.

believer --

I would too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'll give a few "circumstances" (not excuses, mind you) that existed at the time of the A.

1. Not able to have children -- several failed in-vitro attempts led to a form of depression
2. Turning 30 -- a form of mid-life-crisis for her (so what will she do in a few months when she turns 40?)
3. Poor husband -- I was in grad school and not paying enough attention to her needs
4. Overweight -- self-esteem issue (so what happens if gains weight and feels this way again?)
5. Family of origin -- she was "enmeshed" with her family which contributed to rocky relationship with me (and provided the opportunity for the cruise)
6. "He was really nice" -- and a pro at his game
7. "I told him I was married" -- and yet kept on going

I'm sure the list is much longer...

Hmmmm. Sounds like she needs a little more counseling to figure it out. The "he was really nice" one is kind of scary.

Todd,

I have not posted to either of you so I truly hope this is seen as a totally objective post with no agenda. And I have tried to go through most of your posts to get a good handle on your situation.

I agree with you that the A was totally and completely Cruise’s choice to make. And there are consequences to that and they need to be paid.

But I’d like to ask you, who gets to determine what those consequences are? …Is it you or God?

If God gets to determine what the consequences are, does he have to tell you what they are and when Cruise has paid them? What if you never get to know when the consequences have been paid. Where in the Bible does it say we get to know they have been paid?

But the bible does say that a man must present his W holy to the Lord . He must love her like Christ loved the church. It doesn’t say we have to wait of the consequences to get paid before we choose to love them.

If you are the one that gets to determine what the consequences are, then you have already determined what that is (divorce) and you are not the one following up on it. I went through a lot of your posts and you said that an A would end up in divorce. So if you say the consequences needs to be paid then you have to divorce her before you can start loving her again. Plain and simple; black and white.

But you did not D her, so you are depriving her of her ability to pay the consequence? What is your consequence for not D’ing her? Yes I know I am getting a bit ridiculous here but I think there is a valid point. I don’t really know what consequences you are expecting to be paid by her, but let me propose a different scenario if I may.

God is very concerned about you, Cruise and your M. I believe that God would love to see all three; Cruise, your M and you; grow to become better. Up until now, I have failed to see where you think God is asking you to change and grow into a greater man of God.

Thus my different scenario. Suppose God wants you to forgive and make loving choices toward Cruise before she has to pay the consequences? Suppose He is holding back the consequences until He knows that you will be there to love her while she goes through them. Suppose He knows that if she feels like she has to go through the consequences alone, that she may not be there for you when YOU decide she has paid enough.

I haven’t seen anywhere from you where Cruise has shown you that she is still in the A, in contact with the OM or that there is any evidence of any other A. What I have seen is 2 years of posts where you have said that you are not at that place where you can forgive yet and you are insisting on her paying consequences before you will truly choose to love her again. Do you see Jesus being like that? In other words WWJD?

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us
I believe you are letting an incredible opportunity for Godly growth slip away by hanging onto your need for her to pay the consequences that you are expecting. The consequences you are expecting may never be paid.

BTW – I know the question has been asked, even before AW asked it, but I never saw your reply to it. Forgive me if I missed it. What consequence is it that you expect Cruise to pay in order to satisfy you?

I certainly hope you figure it out. Because I wonder how long she will allow you to hang something, that God seems to have forgiven her of, over her head?

I should give you an opportunity to respond to all I have here. I know there’s a lot. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Bless you.

S&C

S&C -- very thought-provoking. I'll need to spend some time thinking on this one.