I am very sad today to the point of tears. It is our DS's first birthday. I can't help but think of me holding my wife's hand, wiping her brow, kissing her lips, crying with her at the birth of our son one year ago today. The the sadness comes when I think that only 8 months later she would be having an affair with a man old enough to be her father and contemplating leaving our marriage and family.

It is almost like a nightmare that I can't wake up from. I do sometimes wake up thinking its only a dream but then reality hits me and I remember that this is real. This is going to be very tough day today for me.

What did Steve advise you to do?

Believer thanks for checking on me. See below Steve's suggestions from Wed, 2/15 session.


I wanted to update you from my session with Steve Harley this morning. I caught Steve up from a week or so back. We discussed the option of telling the OMW and HR department and Steve suggested one last other approach prior to doing so to see what type of response we get. He feels as if the OM who has a lot to lose and who recently lied to my WW by not telling her of the conversation I had with him may be trying to find a safe and soft way to let her down and keep himself out of the limelight. He also suggested that OM has probably not just come out and told WW to leave him alone and that there is no chance of them being with each other as this would lead to a “woman scorned” scenario and OM is unsure of what WW may do if he were to be this blunt. He thinks WW is working from a position of having been at least somewhat turned away by OM on top of wondering about whether she wants to make any effort at restoring a M where she does not have hope that things can be like she would want them to be (i.e. – in love with her husband and improving). He pointed out that I would likely not have any hope (other than hope’s sake) either if I had not taken time to study and research this type of experience and see other couples making a go a having a better marriage than before an A. He is right about that. He wants me to write her a letter (see below draft) to tell her where we differ in our current approach/position to our M prospects. He thinks that if someway she could develop a small amount of hope that we could fall in love, be in love and rebuild a new and better M that she may be more open to working on it.

In the event there is little or no positive response to this approach then he agrees that in order to have a chance to salvage the M it may mean breaking everything in site and then seeing if there is a chance to rebuild. This would entail telling the OMW, sending the letter to HR, visiting the hospital w/ the children (placing further pressure on her as co-workers put a face to this mess she and her OM have helped create), and confronting the OM in person if need be (which I will be happy to do, and no I will not crush him due to the kids). It may very well be that she has to fall all the way down, loss of OM, loss of “job”, enabling/immoral friend network, lifestyle, and possible loss of the people that truly love her the way love is meant to be, her husband and children to get her attention to move forward with reconciliation.

Any comments regarding Steve’s advice or anything else I have listed here would be appreciated very much.

Letter to WW:
Dear Renie,

I wanted to communicate this to you in writing as I think I do a much better job of saying what I want you to hear using this method to communicate. Renie, I have been doing a lot of thinking about where we find ourselves today and have come to one particular conclusion that I would like to share with you. While there currently a lot of external factors that exist, I feel the primary reason we find ourselves stuck in our current position is due to two very different belief systems about our situation. First of all my belief position is that I remain hopeful that we can rebuild a new marriage from the ashes of this experience where we both are in love, happy, joyful and having all of our important needs met or exceeded. I want you know that I did not get there overnight. I have completed a great deal of research and study prior to deciding that there is hope beyond what we have experienced together. And, even after doing so I am still unsure as to where we may ultimately end up. But, without having done this research then I am certain that my initial thoughts or beliefs would have been much like your current beliefs. I feel as if you currently believe that there is no hope to rebuild a marriage where we are in love with one another, meeting each other’s needs and strengthening our family unit. I feel as if this leaves you feeling hopeless, tired, and frustrated and wanting to throw your hands in the air.

I think that you might agree that this is the point where we find ourselves. If there is no hope of rebuilding a marriage that allows us to be in love with one another and happier that ever before then I need and want to know so both of us can move on. For I have learned through this experience that there is a marriage and love that even in our best of times we never quite reached, we simply did not have the tools or know how. I know now that it is possible to have this type of marriage and love and that’s what I am intent on building with you so someone else. However, it is not possible to know this for sure until we have made the effort to research the matter further and get the best possible information before making decisions about our future. If at the point we have done this, the information is such that it appears impossible or improbable that we can have the type of marriage we both so desperately want and deserve, then I will be willing to re-evaluate my position. Help prove me wrong Renie, not by simply thinking or feeling that what we want to experience together can’t happen, but instead help prove to me that there is no chance that we can have the marriage and love we are looking for by finding out things you can’t currently possibly know. I didn’t know them either before this.

How do we do this? We can do this by testing our beliefs, researching the subject, gathering information and talking to those experts who have seen this many times over and are able to draw on years of experience with cases just like ours. Renie, you are a wonderful nurse and very bright woman and you routinely draw on research and data all of the time to combat illness and injury effectively. You did the same when selling pharmaceuticals. Being a nurse I know that you can relate to this example that hopefully makes clearer what I am trying to say. What if, God forbid, a child had an accident and his arm was badly injured. Suppose for just one minute that the attending Doctors told us that they would have to amputate, but by asking for and receiving another opinion we found a Doctor with a new technique that believed that he could not only save our child’s arm but could restore it better (not the same) than before the injury. Would this not be something that we would least want to check out before telling the original Doctor to go ahead and amputate? We may find out that the new technique is real and useable to save and make better our child’s arm or we may find it is a scam, not a proven technique and has had no positive results. In either case we will have done the right thing by researching it and confirming or disproving the claim. If it is possible for this technique to completely restore and improve our baby’s arm then what a magnificent find bordering on a miracle and, if not, then we are no worse off for having tried.

I would gracefully ask you for the wonderful times we shared together and for the sake of our family to at least think about and consider what I have said here. I will call you in a couple of days to discuss your thoughts.

Love,

Randy

PS Choosing to do this does not mean that I am insisting that you leave your job if you, yourself, don’t see the benefit in doing so. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

HP - we're with you, man.

Lunacy.

The most I usually get PO'd about on this forum is with stories about soon-to-be-fathers cheating on their PG wives or leaving right after a baby is born. The lowest of the low.

But a mother doing this right after giving birth is maybe worse. Which causes me to ask, did she suffer from post partum depression? - or is that obvious?

WAT

Hey WAT

She suffered terrible Postpartum Depression with our little girl 9 years ago. Went on medication, cried all the time, etc. It seemed to be better with our son but now that I look back it may have only been less severe. After the birth she had post pregnancy pre-eclampsyia (spelling) and was on several drugs (also hospitalized for three days) for months. Looking back she experienced mood swings, was depressed about her baby weight, started nitpicking everything in sight, started to not like going to church, and in general was not very pleasant to be around. Don't get me wrong there were times when her fun and happy self would be around and she was great. But again in general I do think that she had/has PD with the birth of our son. She never got diagnosed and became angry if you mentioned the possibility that she may be suffering from this.

I don't know - the letter is pretty long for a WW to pay attention to. I would definitely leave out the part about her not having to quit the job. I think she is going to need to quit it.

I'm still in favor of informing the OM's wife.

Thanks Believer. I will see if I can trim the letter some and still say what needs to be said.

I am going with Steve's assessment for now, but I will have an answer by this weekend as I will be able to give the letter to my WW today. She will be working away from home all weekend and I will have the kids. An "I don't know" answer is a "no" answer to me and I will proceed with telling OMW, sending letter and speaking with director of HR for hospital and telling her that I am moving back into the home full time (not part time like now)and if she can't stand to be around me then she needs to find a place to go without the children (maybe one of her crappy, enabling friends will take her in). I also have an appointment with my attorney on Monday to simply run the parallel plan of best positioning myself for sole physical/legal custody of our son (don't think I can for step daughter even though she is as much mine as my son is) if it comes to that. I hope and pray that it doesn't. But, I have to protect him from his mother's inability to make good decisions in the best interest of someone other than herself.

Please be praying for our family because regardless of what happens in the next week it is going to be one heck of a week.

Glad to hear Steve sees it MY way! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Hey guys! Received a small blessing a bit ago. The WW and my DS (remember today is his 1st birthday) came to the city I work in so I called WW to ask if I could come to the mall and give son a b'day kiss and hug. She said yes. She then called back and said why don't we just meet and have lunch at the food court. I said fine. So I went and son was smiling from over 30 ft away as I approached them (made me so happy). I kissed wife on lips (she actually kissed back) and then loved son. I bought lunch for us and then told her that she needed to write me a check for $100 to pay for insurance for her and she did willingly. I walked them to the car and loaded baby into car seat and kissed him again. I turned and kissed (she again kissed back) WW and gave her hug and thanked her for meeting me for lunch.

Most importantly, I was able to give her the sealed letter that Steve Harley suggested I write about "proving or disproving that there can be hope for our M". She said that she would read it and placed in her purse.

All in all, I guess it could not have gone any better at this point and time. Praise the Lord for his magnificent orchestration. I am not reading too much into this so don't worry. It will much more telling how WW responds to letter of hope than pecks at lunch. We'll see. All prayers are welcomed and needed.

hap, it is times like these that are tough...I know. Don't try to understand all of what is happening since your WW is not your W right now.

Listen to SH and let him guide you along the way and if he gives you the go ahead, then unleash the carpet bombs.

Most A don't last and I really believe your situation is much better than most since OM has so much to loose. That is why exposure in your case could be extremely effective.

Hang in there and remember we are here for you my friend.

Well as I mentioned above lunch went pretty well yesterday with WW and DS. I was able to give her the letter that SH recommended outlining our two differing points of view on moving forward. Mine coming from a point of belief and hope that we can fall in love again and build a new marriage (based on MB principles and the many wonderful examples I have seen here) and hers coming from "feelings" that she doesn't really believe that it may be possible. She took and said that she would read it. PLEASE pray that she hears the message of hope and takes an interest in finding out if it is possible or not.

I don't think the A is still hot and heavy as you can read from my other posts but the fact that she still has contact no matter how much is a problem, the fact that she still goes to the place where the A happened is a problem, the fact that this "job" takes her away from me and our children over 2/3 of the month is a problem and the fact that the terrible support network of "friends" she is exposed to is primarily involved with this "job" is a problem.

I have come the conclusion that if she decides to "see" if there is hope for our M that (1) I need her to write a NC letter to OM immediatly (A ongoing or not) (2) immediately schedule a couple of individual sessions with Steve Harley
(3) Give me the secret cell phone for destruction. These three immediately come to mind. There are many, many others should we began recovery at any time in the future.

In the event that she reads the letter and she decides that she is not motivated in anyway to consider hope for our M then it tells me a few things about where she is (IMO). She must still be involved or desires to be involved in the A (one way or both involved but more underground and less obvious). She is addicted to the "job", "support network" and "lifestyle" afforded as a result of this job (away from husband that she cheated on, away from children and responsibilities thereof, away from the real world and kind of like being in college all over again (smoking, drinking, hanging out, gossiping, acting like a teenager in general).

In any case this is not conducive to having a M that is on good footing much less one that has experienced what ours has. It is not good for our children to see there mother 1/3 of the month. It is not good period, in anyway, since we do not need the money. If the letter has no effect (and an I don't know answer is a no answer to me) then I will expose to OMW and HR director will receive the letter ASAP.
At that point I will let the chips fall where they may. I should know something from her by Sunday night. Monday, I will formulate a plan based on her response.

Please pray for us and for every MB memeber here. Those of you who take time to help others with your experiences will never really know the Godsend that you are to us. I hope that someday I will be able to help others in the same way.

I'm praying for you HAP.

I was a WW in my first marriage, and ironically, I lived in MS! Not near Tupelo but not too terribly far from there.

I just want to caution one thing- avoid pushing her right now into a decision about the M. She needs to go totally NC and quit the job now- but let her decide about the marriage after she gets away from the OM and the job and goes NC. Right now, she's confused and wanting terribly to pull away from you. You pushing her for a decision when frankly she doesn't really like you right now, could backfire.

That's the one thing my exhusband did that pushed me away. He wanted to know RIGHT then whether or not I was going to work on the marriage and I had too many other things on my mind then- guilt, hurt, shame, anger etc. to make a decision.

Keep meeting her EN's and insist that she get out of that job. I also had a friend who went through that same thing- her husband went to another city to work as a RN and ended up having a A with a coworker, he divorced her and married OW. He too refused to quit the job in the beginning when she suspected something.

Thanks CW. I have been a lot better lately at not pushing her for an answer. I have been meeting many EN's and trying not to LB, DJ, etc. even if she acts cold or harsh. I am truly concerned that whether she continues to see the OM as an option or not that the job has or will become the affair partner making it impossible to have NO contact with OM and continuing to support this new "lifestyle" which is unhealthy to our family and M. I feel as if this is the case then I will have no choice but to expose to OMW (in order to gain a confidant one hour away and in the town of the employment) and to contact HR about the A in hopes that she is let go from this job. (likely will be since she is only a part time, temp. RN w/ no real employment rights)

If this happens I can be sure that the you know what will hit the fan. She will be angrier than I have probably ever seen her. But, if in the end it gives us a chance I will do whatever it takes to insure NC, return to the family lifestyle, and breakdown of terrible friend/support network.
I hope it doesn't come to this.

Update:

Conversations going much better (as long as it is not about R). Still plan A my butt off. I gave her the letter on Thursday of last week that SH suggested concerning "hope" for marriage rebuilding after something like this has happened. I will discuss it with her on Monday night when she returns home from working out of town. I pray that she has considered it and wants to know what we would do to get off dead center. If so then I will suggest a one on one session with SH as a starter and see what her response is.

If she acts with the same ambivalence and attitude that I have gotten in the past then I would like to know what you think about giving her the letter below in regards to trying to insure that at least the OM is out of the picture, leaving whether or not we both feel that the M can be saved without that particular distraction???

If she refuses to write the NC letter then I would have to assume that there is at least something still going on (one way or both ways) or that there is fantasy island still at play here. In that case for both insuring that the A is brought to complete light for everyone to see and for the sake of our children having a mother around the home for more than a few days per month, I intend to tell OMW and send letter to HR director no later than Wed. of this week. and let the chips fall where they may.

If she will write the NC letter then this may show that she truly has ended the A and whether or not she is in a position to discuss the R or not at least begins to eliminate on factor that is a huge hinderance on any recovery plan. I will of course follow-up even if she did send the letter of NC.

Request for NC letter:



WW,

I wanted take a minute to let you know how I feel about a few things. As I have already made clear I am hurt beyond words and belief by your decision to go outside your marriage to find someone who you thought would meet your needs. At the same time I am deeply disappointed that you did not feel that you could come and talk with me about whatever was troubling you within our marriage. I am sorry that I didn’t provide a safe zone where you felt that you could speak with me about anything that was troubling you. I know that you have noticed that while I have said some things I regret, for the most part
I have handled this situation with love, integrity and dignity as well as making consistent attempts to become a better husband throughout all of this. I hope that you find some respect for my behavior towards you in this matter.

I still believe in our marriage and our ability to struggle through this terrible situation and be in love again. It can be done. Not only can it be done, it has been done by countless couples who find themselves in better marriages today for having gone through this same type of hardship. That said, I still fail to see how seeing the affair partner on a routine basis at the place the affair happened is beneficial to our marriage’s survival and in our family’s best interest. I know that your work may require professional contact at some point and even that is of concern to me due to triggers about the relationship that will inevitably be brought to both his and your minds. I don’t even know for sure whether you are still seeing this man and if so in what way. I know that you said that you were not seeing him any longer, but in another previous comment you qualified that by saying “for now”. I would like to know what the status of your relationship is with this man. You know all of this to be true in your heart and your head. You need only to do the right thing and take a chance on us and our family’s future and see where it goes. You will not be disappointed by following God’s calling for our family.

As your husband and the father of your children I think I deserve to know what the current status of this relationship is and where you want it to go, if anywhere. If the affair is truly over and you now see the relationship for what it truly was, at least from his perspective, then we have a chance. I would like to ask you to write a no contact letter to this man and send it to him so that he is clear that you no longer want anything to do with him and that he should avoid you in the future. Doing this should be no problem if the affair is truly over and you and he are both moving on and trying to get past this. If you will not write the letter then I really I have no other choice than to assume that in some way the affair is still ongoing, at least to some degree or is only on hold for the time being (your comment “for now”). Only at this point can we begin discussing what to do in order to save our marriage and protect our children from further harm.

Love,

BS

hap,

I understand the desire to want to fix things NOW, however you are dealing with a fogged WS who will only pick out the stuff she wants to see from you letter. Don't expect results immediately and if she is still in contact, you WON'T have results until there is true NC.

Some of you letter comes across as you trying to educate your WW and that almost never works. SH told me this himself so try to avoid educating your WS since they will almost always view this negatively.

As for you "deserving" the status of your relationship...well remember the WS will lie, lie and lie more so don't expect much on the way of truthfulness.

I got my WW to write a NC letter and we sent it. The only thing was her heart wasn't in it and she resented me for having to send it. Needless to say NC didn't last very long. The more I learn about A the more I believe that the WS must be willing to work on the M or there will be no recovery.

HAve to go now but I will check in later..

I agree with HTW.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

Slow down.

Nix the new letter.

Plan A + patience, time, consistency. (PTC)

WAT

hap, please try to remember WAT's simple but accurate words of wisdom. I know where you are right now and I know your are thinking things should change in a few weeks or even a month or two. This will take a long, long time. Yes, there are some that recover their M very quickly, however it took many years to get to this point and it will take time to get out.

PATIENCE, TIME & CONSISTENCY (PTC)...just as WAT says will get you where you want to be.

There is a poster on here called "foundareason" and his WW A starated alomst 2 years ago. He was told by the HArley's a few months ago that his M is at its final stages. His signature said "my flame had gone out" for his WW and started making plans for seperation and divorce. He prayed for hiw WW alot and started detaching.

Well guess what...his WW is having doubts about the D now and she has become more affectionate towards him. They actually kissed for the first time in over a year!

I thought his M was over for sure and it may still end, but now he may hold the cards. The decision may be up to him to see if truly wants his WW back. Feelings don't change overnight and that is what I want you to understand.

JL used to tell me it is like a garden...you need to plant new seeds, remove the weeds, and keep tending to it. If you do this over time you will have a healthy garden.

The reason I'm telling you this is to reinforce the words WAT has told you. You really have to be committed and want this or your WW will see right through you. She will look for justification for her actions so you have to be ALWAYS for the M...ALWAYS!

I have been at this for 8 months now and it may seem like a long time to someone in your postion but it's really not that long at all.

Letters really don't have much impact at this stage...actions do and even though you may feel WW is not noticing she will over time.

Okay HTW and WAT,

Update:

WW came home this morning from weekend of work out of town. I was at the home due to weather canceling our DD school for the day and not being able to arrange a baby sitter until 10:30 AM. I welcomed her home, helped her with her bag and we exchanged pecks. She played with DD and baby for about 20 minutes and changed into pajamas for bed. I carried baby into bedroom and we three lay down together for a little while.

ME: did you read the letter I gave you (the letter SH recommended about seeing "hope", finding out if it is possible)
WW: Yes
ME: And?
WW: I don't won't to get into that right now.
ME: Okay, I'll call you tonight to discuss
WW: Okay
ME: Our children and we deserve our best effort to see where this may go.
WW: will you take the baby so that I can lie down now.
ME: yes (I pick up the baby from her chest and start to leave)
ME: WW, is the relationship with the OM truly over
WW: (irritated and exhasperated, YES, I told you that.
ME: And you are telling me the truth
WW: yes, (again frustrated with the questioning)
ME: Well I need to know for sure since we can only truly have a chance in saving our M if the R with OM is over.
WW: I lean in and we give each other a peck on the lips and I leave for work shortly thereafter.

So, I intend to call her tonight to discuss the letter that SH recommended. If she says I just don't see how it can work then I will state that is the reason I asked you to consider the possibility and to check it out. If she says yes then I will ask her to speak individually with Steve Harley at an appointed time this week. If no, then I tell her that I am committed to saving our M and protecting our children.

What I am not sure about is if she says anything other than yes then do I go for maximum exposure to the HR director and OMW? This will likely end in her termination from the job from hades. It will be a huge, huge, LB as I am not sure that the WW doesn't love the job more than she ever felt/feels for OM although them still seeing each other at some time cannot be a good thing. This will get her away from the wierd hours/sleep, terrible friend network, force her to look at her financial situation, spend time with the children and me, etc. However, it could break up OM and OMW?? What would happen then??

Advice please....

I recommend you do none of the above.

Again, slow down.


You're pushing too hard. You're pestering her.
You gotta let all this sink in for awhile, IMHO.

Ask her about your letter again in a few days.

Me: Is it a good time to discuss my letter?
Her: No, not now.
Me: (upbeat) OK, maybe later! Wanna watch a tension filled Olympic curling match with me?

(OK, maybe not EXACTLY the last part, but you get the point.)

Now, different subject: Why haven't you exposed to OM's wife yet?

WAT

WAT,

I agree with your assessment. I have to take a deep breath.

I haven't exposed to OMW yet simply because SH has led me to this point so far. If I expose to OMW this week, then what about the letter to the HR director or would you hold that one for last? One reason I would like to tell OMW and HR is that I am pretty sure that it will permanently end any notion of continuning the A and will likely have my WW terminated from this terrible job, limiting exposure to OM and to lifestyle and friends that helped enable this A and other attitude changes to take place. Opinion?