WAT,

While I agree with this above statement, I think you've been around here long enough to know that this characteristic can be precipitated without the "latent character flaw". Stress, medication, mental illness and substance abuse may all play a role at some point or another. To suggest that all bad behavior proceeds from a latent character flaws doom us all to a life without choice...and you know full well we have that choice.

Of course relationships can be restored. But do I want my government forcing me to do that? I don't think so.

As others have said, put whatever religious system you choose in place. Government have no business telling who and how I can marry or divorce.



While this is certainly admirable, it is wholly inadequate. Does your pastor require a waiting period? Does he consider the age of the "spouse". Is he qualified to run FOO analyses on the appicants and share that info with the opposite applicant? What else goes into his program?

MOST pastors and Christian counselors are not truly prepared to do this. As a deacon, I usually advised couples to see a professional counselor in a nearby city with no connection to their church.

Low - I agree that some of those factors can make a person more susceptible to "finding" their threshold of weakness. But the threshold still relies in most cases upon a compromise of character, IMHO. I think a fair exception is substance abuse - artificial influence, if you will, to the true self. Of course, one could argue that a character flaw influenced THAT choice.

Stress? No way. It can just bring the latent character flaws to the surface.

JMHO

WAT

But--------Don't we all "Fall Short of the Glory of God"? Those of faith and those of none. According to Biblical Teachings and my own Parish Priest, if you breath in and out you are subjected to temptation, and you sin. Just because you are a person of faith does NOT mean that you are above temptation. Satan knows your weaknesses and believe it or not he will definitely "go for the juglar" like it or not.....if we give him even the tiniest opening. And.........it is getting easier for him to do that as the moral climate of this country (and the world for that matter) has declined about 100%. What was not acceptable 50 years ago is now commonplace and society has been "desensitized". People of faith and even clergy must live in the "real world" which makes them as susceptible to the new morality as people of no faith. IMHO

Tare

Tare - is this a fair translation of what you describe?:

"The devil made me do it and I have no personal responsibility nor control for my actions."

WAT

LowOrbit,

I think you misunderstood what I meant entirely. Would I be here if I "had it in the bag"?

It sounds like you are cynical about God & what he offers (maybe based on your church experience). And it sounds like you've let the world influence you more then God. You seem to imply that the bible can't give you all the answers! In fact, it does, but sometimes the answer isn't what you want to hear. The concepts may appear too simplified or old school, and in fact are sometimes very difficult to humble ourselves & do what is right (DESPITE OUR FEELINGS). But, the bible is just as valid today as ever.

As we know from being here, our feelings are not always a good guide in the right direction otherwise, we'd let those WS's go right away. But, we know that feelings can be misleading (as they are in a fog) so we know we must work to help save them from their own misleading emotions, right?

I wanted to add here that I live in the middle of the Bible Belt. I think religion doesn't play a role at all, but it is more likely education & income. There are a lot of poor, uneducated people here that are not religious at all. Personally, I would love to see a study of those who have God & those who don't within the Bible Belt who get divorced & see how those numbers stack up.

Obviously, I'm not saying that having God or going to church is going to keep anyone from a divorce, but if you are following the Bible (both spouses), it is much less likely you will get a divorce & will work on the marriage in a positive way. I think if I didn't have God right now, I would already be in the middle of a divorce.

No, I understood perfectly. That's what I'm asking YOU to go back and consider.



You don't know me at all...what makes you think you can make those kinds of judgements about me? Be careful. In fact, I'm one of Jesus Christ's biggest fans. I do believe that faith that doesn't live in the REAL world is useless. So, I tend to be very practical about it's implementation.



We'll have to disagree on this one. The Bible is not a comprehensive "answer book" and it is a horrendous mistake to treat it such. I won't get into to why I think that here.



This is very dangerous. What makes you think you can save anyone?..especially when it's their sovereign right to think, feel and believe however they choose. This is utter hubris masquerading Christian love. Don't worry, W2BS, I know it well...I've been there.

Oh, btw, you didn't respond to a single question I asked you. Instead, you chose to blow me off as "cynical". THAT's the church I remember.

Low

A big "if."

Same can be said if you're following the Golden Rule or doing what your Mamma said.

Having a road map still requires the discipline to use it.

WAT
--------------
Scienarra - rejecting all reason and evidence, e.g., Kansas Board of Education

LowOrbit,

I'm not going to answer most of your questions because it is obvious we do not agree & will not agree. You have twisted what I meant. Everything I've said, you attack. There is no point in having a debate over these things - just believe whatever you want & I'll do the same.

I find it so strange that if anything is ever brought up about God & the Bible, some people are always ready to attack instead of letting each person have their own opinion.

Well, LowOrbit, I will respond to this. I must say that is NOT the church I attend. We have talked openly with our pastor about our situation & he gave us HNHN & gave us lots of practical advice (like the book does as well). He also told us how he is working with men who are addicted to porn. Last Sunday night he talked specifically about lust & where it can lead. He's also talked about sex & teen pregnancy, inappropriate clothing for daughters, etc., porn (as I mentioned) all during the main service. It's a practical, YET holds us responsible for our actions, church. I don't know what kind of church you attended, but I'm sorry you don't have the kind of love & acceptance we experience at our church. I’m not trying to be condescending, but your tone & terrible experience make it obvious that you have some serious anger & issue with the church that hurt you & God.

And yet, you cannot help yourself because you don't recognize when you are...that was the point of my original warning to you. It will eventually bite you in the backside in your own church...mark my words.



I was very angry with God...for a while. Until I realized exactly why things happened the way they did. It had nothing to do with God and everything to do with a church blinded by it's own fundamental self-righteousness. That's why I know it when I see it...I've been there. We believed we were doing the right things out "love" and "obedience". We believed the world around us was just a bunch of poor, misguided souls that needed us to set them straight. We should've spent a little more time worrying about our own relationship with God.

I am closer to God than I've ever been in my life. He hasn't abandoned me even when "His" people were ready crucify me. So, yes, I am quite wary of "His" people and no longer view them through stained-glass spectacles.

Again, that is your opinion because you were hurt by what they did to you. I don't know if they were right or wrong, but your anger has allowed you to make judgments that only God is qualified to make about people.

My H & I started going to our church because a H.S. friend of my H's ran into him & invited him. Nothing special? Well, considering this was a man who used to use drugs heavily, sell drugs, steal, etc. whose friends are ALL in prison now except him & who was helped by this church through the hard truth (he was attending, but kept falling back into drugs & coming & crying that he couldn't get off of them). Finally, the pastor said "You need to choose, God or drugs, it's your choice, but you are making a choice." And told him he didn't want to hear this whining anymore - basically telling him not to come back if he couldn't stop drugs. Well, he told us that is what saved him because NO one ever talked so frankly with him & it woke him up. Today, he's an Usher & working to become a pastor. So, you have your opinion of fundamental, bible preaching churches & I have mine. I think some people just want to keep whining & do not want to hear the hard truth & that is why they find themselves offended, but it doesn't make the church wrong.

And by the way, I am entitled to my own opinion, just as you are - so quit thinking you have the right to "warn me" about having the opinions I have. I said already that we will not agree & that is fine. But, you are not going to tell me I can't put my opinions on this board because you don't agree with them so you conclude I am being condescending. I feel you are the one being patronizing here by "warning me" - who gave you this authority?

And we are completely off topic anyway so there is no point in continuing this line of discussion.

I'm sorry that it has come to this, W2BS. I'm sorry you felt attacked. That was not my intent. Of course you are entitled to you own opinion, as are we all. I'd just like to see you be able to communicate that to a broader spectrum of folks without immediately alienating them.

As far as having the "authority" to warn you, I did originally say it's because I cared about you. I think you have something offer. And I know there are ways to package it that will help people hear what you're saying. I wanted you to know that there are people here of great spiritual maturity besides yourself who might have a perspective different from what you're used. You can learn from them, and respect them, without labeling them angry, cynical, worldly, etc.

There are two conservative Christian posters here that do a wonderful job of this - ForeverHers and Mortarman. They are always at the ready to give an account for their positions in a thoughtful, respectful manner. I don't always agree with them, but we are able to discuss things in a respectful, spirited manner. I have learned quite a bit from them.

As Christians, we need to be able to do that. Christians should be eager to acknowledge their shortcomings, that God may be glorified in our frailty. We need to be slow to anger and judgement, quick to forgive and be compassionate. We need to acknowledge that everything in our lives isn't solved by a simple verse here and there.

Please, take a look at some of FH's and MM's past posts...you'll see what I mean.

Peace to you.

Thank you for your kind response. I'll look at their posts.