I'm a little late in entering the fray, but the first thought I had was this: People in the bible belt are possibly more likely to be married in the first place. Thus to "break" up a relationship, a divorce is in order.

The Bible-belt is probably the most conservative, geographically speaking, part of the nation. In the less-conservative areas, couples are probably much more likely to live together, without "benefit" of marriage, thereby creating much fewer divorces, but not necessarily fewer break-ups of a "family unit". It just doesn't show up as divorce statistics.

JMHO
SD

First, I want to say that our pastor just dealt with this topic at church last Sunday night. We went over David & Bethseba. What he said is basically that the closer you get to God, the harder Satan is going to try to drag you down. "Temptation comes without invitation, but sin never does!" David saw Bethseba bathing (which is the temptation without invitation), but his sin was that he had idol time (laying in bed instead of at battle like he should have been) and he lingered & looked at her instead of turning away. That took him down the road to larger sins - adultery, murder, etc. The bible shows that you are not protected from this or any other sin because you have God, but it depends on whether you turn away from temptation & turn to God when temptation comes. Remember, David was a man after God's own heart.

SD, isn't that what I just said? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

LowOrbit,

If you spent anytime at my church, you would realize that this is NOT true. Last Sunday morning, our pastor went over the requirements of a husband, wife & children. These are NOT simple tasks - this gives MORE responsibility to each member of the family then the world requires. And when you believe in God (the God of the Bible), you realize you are subject to his rules & requirements. Even though, you rely on God for emotional support, you know he expects each of us to do the work in our marriages & families. We aren't just sitting around waiting for God to fix it. Seriously, this is not how a Christian sees it. I would think it is how a non-believer feels about God, not a Christian.

Are you serious? Is that what that story's supposed to convey?

Gazing at a woman creates a murderer?

Beer leads to heroin?

Swallowing small quantities of spit over a long period of time leads to stomach cancer?

I'm asking because I really would like to understand this logic better.

WAT

uh oh...pass the heroin...

You do see, however, on this board, given the proper tools & time, a marriage that seems doomed can be saved. Don't you think it would be nice to have this opportunity if the states would require counseling before marriage & before divorce? My pastor will not marry any couple until they have read & gone over thoroughly His Needs, Her Needs so they know what could happen if they are not doing their part. IF WE all had this, could some of us have avoided being here at all? Just something to think about.

worthatry,

Do you know the story? He had his servants find out who Bathseba was first. They came & told him the daughter of ..., the wife of ... The servants were giving David a chance to realize that this woman was someone's daughter & someone's wife. David sent for her anyway. Also, it doesn't say she was unwilling & in fact, she would know that men come out on their rooftops in the evening so to be there bathing - she was likely enticing him. They committed adultery, she conceived a child as well. Then, David decided to send her husband to the hottest battle where he would be killed & he was. After the mourning period, David took her as his wife.

So, yes, by taking that intial step of lingering & looking -haven't you learned from MB that those little steps lead to big things?

WAT,

Are you familiar with the story?

David had Bathsheba's H killed. David had gotten Bathsheba pregnant while the H was away at war (which is where David should have been). David had H come home in hopes he would lay w/ Bathsheba so that H wouldn't know for sure he wasn't the father. H declared to David that he had made an oath that he wouldn't be w/ his W so long as his soldiers (he was an officer) had to be away from their W's. So, David had H put in the front of the battle with instructions for the forces to pull away from him leaving him stranded and hence dead-meat.

One interesting thing, about this story was when Nathaniel came to reprimand David for his wickedness, Nathaniel (the prophet) told David that God would have gladly given him MORE WIVES (he already had about half a dozen) had he asked God.

So... in that case, adultery DID lead to murder.

Just something to contemplate...

TA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Sorry... yep, you are right! I just skimmed the thread, had the thought, slapped it in writing, and now I'm just sitting here in total redundancy....LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

SD

Correct me if I'm mistaken but didn't Jonathan, David's dear friend and son of Saul, come to David to speak to him about the situation?

I went and looked it up. I stand corrected. It was Nathan.

It wasn't the looking that is the problem as we're all tempted to do things we shouldn't. The problem is they succombed to the temptation and acted. David and Bathsheba were no more selfish twits than we all have the capability of being...

Yes, I am familiar with the story. But no, I'm not familiar with such a far fetched interpretation.


And yes, I think I know pretty much about MB principles.

My point is that if gazing at a woman leads to infidelity or murder, somebody better tell Dr. Harley because he has it all wrong and we better make some HUGE changes in our society.

I propose that the proper interpretation is that David and Bathsheba were selfish twits who acted on their selfishness.

WAT

worthatry,

What's your point? My point is that just because you have God, as David did, doesn't mean you aren't tempted and that you always make the right choices to not sin. But, somehow you & some others are trying to turn this into something else.

Jesus said to look upon a woman with lust is to commit adultery of the heart. So, in bibical terms, by lingering & looking, he already committed adultery of the heart. This is why my husband has learned NOT to linger OR look. Through understanding God's view on lust & adultery, he knows that even lustful thoughts can lead to much more.

My point was that beer doesn't lead to heroin; looking at a woman doesn't lead to adultery.

The "path" to adultery (for a man) obviously has looking at a woman on the way, but it starts LONG before the look, in my view. It starts with latent character flaws. A selfish twit. An inability to control oneself and not act on temptation.

If you or others need a more simplistic view to maintain control of yourselves, don't drink beer and don't look at others - that approach will certainly work to protect you from both heroin and adultery.

I wish you success.

I wasn't always a selfish twit...but the selfish "only want to entitle myself" opinion started about 3 months before the look...so if 3 months is LONG before? And I dont know if it was a character flaw of selfishness - but it played on another character flaw - my inability to cope with what life was throwing at me - and my need to self destruct to cope.

Finding a woman attractive and commenting on it is not lust - lust is when you find yourself getting horny over that woman...

I am a Christian now and believe it is a sin to lust now - but finding Orlando Bloom amazingly attractive and melting at his grin doesn't mean I long to be with him and that melting makes me horney...I don't lust him...Human nature is that we do look...is what it triggers inside that becomes the sin...

I'm surprised no one has referred to the reasons given in the article cited:
(emphasis added.)

This is an example of what is known as "confounding factors". A correlation between two measures is really based on a relationship that each measure has with something else all together. So, in states where there is low household income and where people marry at an early age, there are higher rates of divorce.

Sometimes once you tease out the confounding factors, it turns out that the relationship is the reverse of what you think. I read an example years ago of a bank whose management was thinking of firing the head of a particular branch because it was doing so much worse than other branches at bringing in new business. Then someone pointed out that the bank was in an inner city neighborhood. When the branch was compared to other bank's branches in the same neighborhood, it turned out that it was actually bringing in more new business than would be predicted in that neighborhood than the other branches were bringing in for their respective neighborhoods.

So if you want to find out the relationship between religion and divorce, you have to disaggregate the statistics by age at marriage and household income, not just by geographic area.

But ark...you possess a mature attitude towards relationships. You understand the foibles of the human spirit. THAT's what God asks us to do...learn to humble and understand ourselves in light of His love.

Too many religious people see it as a system of regulations. When confronted with a situation that is not clearly handled by them, they find that the support system is lacking. They become confused and angry.

I think you are probably an exception to the rule, ark.

First off W2BS, out of care for you, I want to warn you about your religious condescension.

You'll find that there are people here who know a great deal about faith and the Bible. People who have spent many years in various positions of teaching and leadership.

I can assure you that thinking you "have it in the bag" and the rest of the world is in left field is a real problem of humility for you.

So you know, I spent well over twenty years in study, teaching and discipleship in a very conservative S. Bap church...the same church that turned on me and asked me to leave...even after I had repented.

I am well versed in the Bible and it many interpretations.

So, let's break down your lesson, shall we?

:: Last Sunday morning, our pastor went over the requirements of a husband, wife & children.

Ok...so you know what they are. Did he give any PRACTICAL advice? Did he tell you how to handle the curve ball that doesn't fit brother Paul's model? Families rarely fit this ideal. So, when things don't work the way they "should" people become angry and disillusioned.

:: These are NOT simple tasks - this gives MORE responsibility to each member of the family then the world requires.

Of course it does...more responsibility to people who are ill equipped to handle it. How do you help these people?

:: And when you believe in God (the God of the Bible), you realize you are subject to his rules & requirements. Even though, you rely on God for emotional support, you know he expects each of us to do the work in our marriages & families.

While I find great comfort in knowing God will help and love me, most folks don't find Him at the ready with the quick "How?"...What do I do when I find pot in my husband's toolbox? What do I do if I'm not feeling attracted anymore? What do I do if I start to feel attracted to the same sex?
All too often, we get the parrot response "Just pray about it, dear"

:: We aren't just sitting around waiting for God to fix it. Seriously, this is not how a Christian sees it. I would think it is how a non-believer feels about God, not a Christian.

So, your official position is that people who struggle with making their relationship work are unbelievers? This is in essense what you have said. I hope it's not what you meant.

The last three marriage courses I was involved in at church were completely useless. They refused to deal with sexuality honestly. They refused to discuss thoughts of infidelity (oh no, that only happens to unbelievers) and they engage in magical thinking...e.g. if we all hold hands and pray, God will fix our problems.

The real problems come in when Christians refuse to admit that they are real people facing real problems just like everyone else on the planet...WE REFUSE TO EMBRACE OUR HUMANITY...instead, treating it like the lesser stepchild that we'd like to lock in the basement.

So, in closing, I stand by me original statement...one based on over 20 year over observation and experience from inside a conservative, Bible teaching church.

Thank you, el