I am noticing a trend here. It seems like the vast majority of the wayword spouces are Passive-Agressive and that their spouces have the most difficult time getting through any kind of recovery.

I believe YES! My husband fits this profile so well even he could not deny it. He learned it from being modeled from his mother.

In fact, I've done some reading on the topic & here is what I found:

PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE PERSONALITY CLUSTER

Passive aggression is learned and it can be unlearned. Often it's developed in childhood as a way to cope with being overcontrolled by parents. Later this overcontrol may be projected onto authority figures, teachers, bosses, and spouses. Passive aggression is sometimes modeled within families.

What are the signatures of passive aggressive behavior and the folks who've learned to operate in this indirectly aggressive way? Persons who act in passive aggressive ways tend to:

*Have difficulty saying no to persons viewed as authorities/bosses/teachers/spouses/. In seeming to outwardly comply with requests, the passive aggressive person will procrastinate, leave tasks undone, obstruct, do an insular job, do what was not requested, misplace, or "forget" to perform the requested tasks. When asked about their problem with delivering, the passive aggressive individual is likely to make excuses, blame, or become sullen while claiming only good intentions.

*Often feels put upon, controlled, pressured, and victimized.

*Frequently is involved in fibbing, omitting information, or lying to avoid direct confrontation.

[color:"red"] *Prone to "cheating" and being found out in long-term relationships and marriages.[/color]

*Often has challenges paying bills in a timely manner and may have a poor credit history.

*Likely has a history of poor interpersonal relationships where friends and partners are frustrated by indirectness and passive aggressive behaviors.

*Will make dates and stand people up.

*May be in denial about passive aggressive behaviors, claiming only good intentions.

*Are frequently in trouble in work situations for excessive tardiness and incomplete tasks.

*Have high rates of somatic complaints and headaches.

*May abuse alcohol and substances.

*In relationships may complain about partners to third parties instead of discussing issues directly with their partners.

*Chronically "forgets" to do important tasks whether for self or others.

*Claim to "do too much" for others.

*Sensitive about being requested to do things.

*Often lagging in education and careers.

*Fearful of being disliked.

The key is for the P/A to recognize that they are P/A. My H does recognize it. He told me yesterday of ALL the things he needs to do to make our marriage right & to make his life right with God, changing the P/A behavior was going to be the hardest - even harder then for him to quit lusting & masturbating (which he did last year). He thought he would never give that up as he was so addicted to it. For him to say this will be harder shows me how much he is entrenched in this behavior. He does it without thought.

Another point is recovery is hard because these are classic conflict avoiders and quitters. How does that type of personality want to get in gear & help their spouse recover? They usually want to run & hide because it is hard. Also, they want to place blame of not moving forward on the BS & not their own behavior.

i think i am fairly passive agressive. I match some of the list (to a tee on some...) - but I am the faithful one.

stbx shows some signs of P/A, but also has many other issues.

How does one get help to overcome P/A?

far

I'm fairly P/A too, and also the faithful one, but WH is very much so, although he doesn't fit every item in the list above. For example, he always seems to be compelled to appease his boss to the nth degree rather than do anything for me (which would require him use that "extra" time he gives to his boss), and if I ask him to meet a need, he says I'm trying to control him, so I feel like he then digs in his heels to NOT meet that need I have.

My mom is P/A & not a cheater, but I think her inability to be open & honest in her relationships and being seemingly agreeable in conversation, but then acting out the opposite helped destroy her relationships. I don't think the P/A has be the cheater, but that behavior can drive a spouse away from you as well.

Here's some info:

PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE HELPING HAND
http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/DEFENDING.html
READ SOLUTIONS, SUGGESTIONS & LORI'S STORY AS WELL.

A funny but true description of a P/A from below: Once you delve into the history of the term, you realize that--at least in the eyes of its critics--it's mostly useful as a high-flown way to call someone a pain in the a**.

Also, read: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030530.html

Wow Strong, You have done a lot of reading on this subject I can tell. Thank you for your useful information.

rb123,

It's a weight lifted off my shoulders. My H frustrated me to no end, but then always acted innocent & well-meaning. He convinced me in many ways that I was too hard on him, too controlling & he had good intentions. Then, after D-day & reading HNHN, I realized there was much more to it. Plus, my H mostly ignored my needs to a point I quit caring about his. The P/A just makes it harder to recover because my H was blaming me for not wanting to recover while he did nothing to help me - never taking responsibility (even if he did in words). It's going to be a lifelong process I think. I hope I'm up for it.

Wanting,

Typically, how many of the P/A characteristics does one have to have before he/she is considered a P/A person?

I cannot say for sure how many characteristics they need to be P/A. There are levels of P/A so some people may have more traits then others. My H has all but a few (serious P/A):

He doesn't have these (although he used to have some of these as well):
*Are frequently in trouble in work situations for excessive tardiness and incomplete tasks. (as a young man, he had this one too)
*May abuse alcohol and substances. (drank alot in younger days)
*In relationships may complain about partners to third parties instead of discussing issues directly with their partners. (never had this - just didn't complain period-total silence about feelings)
*Claim to "do too much" for others. (never had this one)

And now he recognizes that he has the behavior as well so that's another off the list.

TestedDevotion-

I would say you can really recognize it if you watch what person says, then watch their actions. If their actions don't line up, they may be complying with your wishes in words only.

Then, there seems to be alot of double talk as I call it when what they say doesn't line up with what they later say they meant (trying to back out of what they originally said).

Also, my H won't finish tasks or do what he says he's going to do (usually excuses like "I didn't know I would have to run to the store" or something stupid).

I have to pay all bills & take care of any & all tasks or at least I have to manage tasks. He never sees the need to do something & gets it done. That is up to me.

The ONLY things I've managed to get him to do (mostly) without me saying anything is mowing & taking out trash. And that was literally from me letting it go completely & leaving it undone.

And in any arguments he will always say "well, if you hadn't kept me up so late" or "if you hadn't made me go to the store" or something along those lines so that his failure to do something is somehow always my fault. I didn't even know about P/A when I remember saying "I am sick & tired of you trying to blame me for everything you do or don't do".

Even in recovery, he was not doing what he should do (in fact, lots of LB's) and was saying when I was getting more & more angry & resentful "you just don't want to move forward" "you just want to hang onto it", etc. It was only when I finally got the info here about the responsibilities of the WS & BS, that I could show him that he has the key to my healing so my stalled state was HIS fault. When he realized that, he also realized he was using the P/A behavior again. It's hard to recognize alot of times, even it gets by me.

Also, another key is if I get angry & frustrated, he has won (part of P/A). He uses it to become victim of my anger. Crazy huh?

That's why I said I hope I can make it.

Mulan wrote Light bulb moment re: conflict avoiders. That is what realy got me started thinking about this. She said they arn't just avoiding conflict with others but with themselves through compartmentalizing, rationalizing, and fantasizing and lying. Blaming other people would be another big part of avoidance. CA and PA are very closely related and easy to throw together.

I know what you mean about it bringing you down. Learning to keep my anger under controle and keep on track is definitly the key to having any constructive conversations.

May I just say...

Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I second that RiverTam!!!

It matches my H way too much.

Daisy

Out of the 16 items there are only 4 that don't fit my H. He can pay most of his bills on time. Well I guess I have been doing that for him so maybe he fits that one too. He doesn't have somatic illnesses. He doesn't abuse alcohol. He is pretty successful in buisness.

rb123,

There are levels of P/A (many are worse then others) and most people use P/A behavior from time to time. In a work situation where a person doesn't have the power & is told what to do by a demanding boss, many can resort to P/A behavior (like talking about the boss behind their back, procrastinating on the task because they don't agree, etc.) This doesn't mean they truly have the disorder, but are powerless & want to cause their boss pain in some way. And they cannot express their anger or frustration because they may be afraid to lose their job.

Definition: Passive-Aggressiveness results from feeling powerless and fearful. As the name suggests, people with the disorder strike out passively because they want to cause you pain and are afraid to show anger.

The difference between most of us & those who have the disorder is that the P/A behavior rules their life as it is engrained in their every word & action. It is a learned behavior that can be unlearned, but is very, very difficult.

ALSO, I think it was key that my H finally understanding that he wanted to cause me pain when he did these things. This hurt more knowing this too. All I wanted was a good marriage, & he spent all our time together sabotaging it.

I didn't recognize what this was when I was dating my H so when he would do things that hurt me (not calling when he said he would, taking cash off my credit card without permission & me finding out when I got the statement, lying about graduating H.S., etc.), he would play the best manipulation game ever - "puppy who piddled on your carpet" as I used to say. It was like he would NEVER intentionally do something to hurt me - he was sorry & it was totally just thoughtlessness and not something he was intentionally doing. And never having dealt with this before, I believed him even though it left me uneasy because it just didn't add up. NOW, I understand this was all P/A behavior he was using to manipulate me.

This coupled with the infidelity has me hanging on by a thread. I've told him I never knew who he was & now have no way to know I will ever be able to build trust again.

RiverTam - I agree - EEK! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

OMG! That description of PA fits my W to a tee! I never realized just how well she fits that description. Our MC brought it up a couple weeks ago and it kinda hit me then.

FN

"They want to cause pain but are affraid to show anger." That fits to a tee. If you have read my other thread, I have filed for divorce. This morning he found out that I had transfered money from our joint account to a personal account. He went through my purse while I was asleep. He took my debit card and the checkbook for the private account. I found out before he went to the bank and called them to make sure he didn't try to write a check on it. He took the money from our joint savings and put it into the joint checking acct that he considers his. The bank clerk said he was realy mad when he came in.

May I just say though: that was then, this is now! Now, well! He's finally "standing up to me" and my "emotional abuse" and is letting RIP with the manifested outward rage. Never mind that I have done almost nothing to warrant it over the past eight months, he's found stuff aplenty! Once, he sent me a venomous text after our daughter's grad, saying what a fool he'd been to put up with so much s*** for so many years, and I asked him what I'd done that night to prompt this text that literally came out of nowhere. He said, "Oh, it's nothing you did TONIGHT!..."

Grrrr.

Actually... can we address rb123's comment that "their spouses have the most difficult time getting through any kind of recovery"?

What think you of this?