I got that, sorry to sound like I didn't. A no contact letter could go like this:

OM,

I no longer want to continue our affair. I was wrong to involve you with my kids, hurting and confusing them by bringing my boyfriend into our family and telling them to listen and respect you, even as I was disrespecting my marriage and you were committing adultery with me.

I love my children and do not want to lose them. You are not worth that price, nor is anyone. There are many problems with my marriage. I no longer want you to be one of them.

Do not attempt to contact me in any way for any reason.

WW

Maybe I'm nuts, but it is a place to start, isn't it? Again, I didn't get a no contact letter. I might be just wishing in remembrance. If this wouldn't work for you, then what? A step or no step? Really, you would have to decide.

Along with the NC letter would be transparency. You'd have to set your parameters for that. And you have to do this with all the loving way you've developed...like a lighthouse even though she believes she's caving to demands to not lose her kids.

Is it a DJ for me to have written that? I dunno. Others probably have good advice waiting in the wings, huh?

LA

Hehe Caren, you are evil <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> In a sick sorta way I like that. Good suggestion.

I am not so sure OM is really helping her with bills or not. I have no way of knowing. She brought that up when she said she broke it off (because she was going to need more financial spport). Who knows. She makes good money.

If anything I think I have been calm. And I know she is frightened, she is scared to death. I never ever expected this, I was serious, i want them out of that situation and I am tired of the manipulation, but i never expected her to freak out like she is.

Ok LA. Thanks. Great example. Im a little drained mentally, have been for very very long time. So figuring some of this stuff is hard for me. Your example helped. Thanks.

I dropped off the boys, no beast... im sure the games will begin the moment the children are in bed.

LA-



I looked back, I don't understand this comment.

I don't mean to contridict your advice, actually in retrospect it wouldn't hurt for him to tell her he's going to need her to give him an NC letter....at least plant the seed for it, eh?

MrLocked-

You are doing very well......and I'm glad your serious that all this OM stuff around your kids needs to come to a screeching halt.

LA's right, it wouldn't hurt to tell her that you need an NC letter. That would be going along with the lighthouse thing.

This girl is ripe, I don't know this will make it all the way to Plan B....I really don't.

God Bless,

-Caren

In addition to the other terrific things you are doing: you can still demonstrate to her that you love her. Not just take a run at it, not just give it an effort. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Let her understand without question that you can give her a lifetime of love, even if she makes mistakes. Give her an emotionally safe place to come to. She will likely come to understand over time.

Thanks weneedhelp. I did pose that question you suggested. She is not willing to discuss it, it seems.

Caren, I did as you suggested. I had a cache of some of our photos already selected for nice things. There are so many, mostly kids. Anyway, I fired something off to her this morning, something both funny and a great memory.

She wrote me asking why I was trying to be so nice today. Im almost always nice anymore, geez. She writes saying I have not been so nice to her lately. I told her, not word for word, defending ones self and protecting their family and children is not something I would consider mean. As matter of fact, I believe I have been behaving quite the opposite of mean.

Anyway, LA, im just not so great with words im sure you could of put it a better way then I.

I guess she did not like that. She writes me back asking me why I am emailing her, does any of this pertain to the children? I did not respond to that mail YET. Ideas?

See, yesterday she told me she did not want me to call her, come in her home, or email her or contact her in any way unless it is about the children. Course she called me all day untill she left work.

Thanks

---

Control. Power. Illusion, MrLU.

Don't contact me in anyway at all...but I'LL do all the contacting. LOL. Sorry, know it hurts and it's frustrating, but can you see the three-year-old in your wife? Can ya? I had to do that in myself and my WH and got a good feeling from it. That this isn't the adult people who loved, vowed and respected...these were the inner children totally reactive to pain, lost, confused and still needing their mate.

I won't put words in your mouth, MrLU. I feel like I've disrespected you that way. You have your own. That they are yours is what counts.

I'll switch to informing, 'k? There are four horsemen of miscommunication (likened to the apocalypse) by Gottman, PhD...

criticism
contempt
defensiveness
stonewalling...

When someone states what they feel "I feel you are being mean to me the last few days" though I sure she said "Why are you being mean to me lately and now nice?" You have to hear it the first way in your head. That takes the truth and the accusation out of it. She begins the conversation with criticism...one horseman already present.

If you repeat what she said, then you don't add another horseman. You felt defensive and said you were being the opposite of mean (which I greatly liked). There's the other horseman...instead of hearing that she just feels that you're being mean (not validating your efforts hurts, I know), should take most of the sting out of it--unless you expected (yours) her to act differently. Caren is giving you great ideas to make love the verb...but it will backfire if you're doing it with expectations instead of expressing your love and devotion to the marriage, won't it?

I really like that you said "defending" your marriage and family doesn't seem mean to you. See, that isn't a defensive statement. You feel attacked by her A and you communicated it well.

Have faith and endure. Feel proud of yourself.

Does any of this pertain to the children? "I believe our marriage is vital to the children and their entire lives. I have loved sharing my life with you and still want that for our future."

Geesh...I can't even stick to my own promise to not put words in your mouth. ::::

You should fire me.

LA

The saga continues.

WW calls me to further discuss the custody situation. She still proclaims that she broke it off with OM, and is upset with me for forcing her to do something she does not want. Alot of babble. "I dont love you like a wife should", "its over", "i dont want to be married to you"... on and on. I tell you this gets discouraging but trying to let it go in one ear and out the other.

We get on to discussing her no contact with OM. I told her that I want a no contact letter which I must approve and I will send certified mail to OM's home. She thought i meant in email "I wont give you his email address". She said no problem but she wanted something to. She wanted me to agree in writing that I will not pursue custody of my children if she does the no contact letter and ends her affair. (but she then says, what if i decide to see someone else besides OM).. i didnt know how to respond to this.

We keep talking. More babble about how she does not love me, how we were done along time ago, how there is nothing to fix, that we never worked together, ever.. Ok, maybe i wasnt so great.. babble.... alot of it..

Ok, NC and NC letter, if i guarentee something for her. Ok, she keeps going back to how im forcing her to do this because i want her. I express that while I do, more then anything wish to have my wife and my family together and be able to rebuild our marriage into something much better then we have ever imagined, that is not why i want custody of my chidren. I told her it is a consequence of her involving my children in her affair and with the OM.

She goes.. Fine. We can try this for a few months. I wont change untill I see you have changed. We can go out to dinners and other activies, you can come over.. I do not know if i feel comfortable with you staying the night but may do it on occasion, i do not want us moving back in together.

She had a few more demands. Pretty much most of what she was demanding we are on the same page, except for the part of her not trying.

She then went on about how im forcing her to do this. SHe doesnt want to be with me, etc, etc.. But she did say those things, without me dragging it out of her.

Thoughts?

I still, do not have many expectations for her. As caren said, she seemed likes she's just flopping around still.

--

I think until the pain of continuing to do what she is doing is so great that the pain of truthfully and earnestly trying to see if the M can be saved is less pain she will not be of any mind to make the effort needed to give you M a chance.

She is in no position to demand. She needs time to consider what she has done to everyone involved in this mess and only through remorse and repentance will any true healing on her end happen. At that time she may be ready to try to save the M by taking her eyes off of herself and her selfish and entitlement attitude. Your WW could be mine.

Yes. I agree. She still tells me she believes she has done nothing to our family, our kids. The children are fine. They are happy, etc.

My DS9, has showed no problems through all of this except his grades are falling even more over the last severl months. He always had a problem though with grades.

My DS12, he is going into counseling and WW tells me it has nothing to do with us, that his problems existed for a long time, etc. Yes, some of them did.

They do now bawl and cry for us to fix things. They wont even open up, just tells us everything is OK. But every once in awhile DS12 will give me a crumb telling me how he feels. But wont go further.

Anyway, yes. Entitlement. Big time.

--

Nah, she's not hurting the kids in any way. Her behavior in her M will not be viewed by them and likely personafied in their future behavior, Nah, come on.

These WS's can really justify everything can't they.

article:
The Many Costs of Divorce -
A recent issue of AACC's Marriage and Family: A Christian Journal (1999, v. 2, 1) published a review of research on the effects of divorce by David & Susan Larsen and James Swyers. Cautious about inferring causation as every good researcher must be, they nonetheless agreed with University of Virginia sociologist Stephen Nock that "Divorce may be the number one unrecognized health problem in the United States." This review of published research was comprehensive for both adults and for children-surveying the clinical, social, and demographic consequences of divorce in the United States. Following are some highlights of this ground-breaking review of the data on divorce.

Data on Divorced Adults -
Nearly half of all marriages now end in divorce; and from 1970 to 1992, the number of divorced adults in America quadrupled.

Remarriages after divorce tend to be unstable, break up more often, and end more quickly than do first-time marriages. Remarriages are 50% more likely to divorce in the first five years compared to first marriages.
Morbidity studies-rates of particular diseases among distinct population groups-showed that divorced persons exhibited consistently higher rates of acute medical crises, chronic medical conditions, and highest physician use rates.
Rates of psychiatric illness were highest for divorced persons vs. any other marital group. Men were affected the most.
Clinical depression rates overall were highest among divorced women, but divorced men showed the highest rates among those who had not been previously depressed. Depression was most acute among those divorced who did not have consistent relations with their children, among ex-spouses who continued in on-going conflict, and among those who were socially isolated.
Alcohol abuse and alcoholism affected divorced men at a rate 4.5 times higher than married men. Social isolation, depression, and suicidal struggles were all shown to contribute to the abuse of drugs.
Women and children suffered most economically. Only half of the divorced men in America pay their full support responsibility; one-quarter make partial, inconsistent payment, and one-quarter pays nothing.
Data on Children of Divorce -
Numerous longitudinal studies that have been following children over the past 20 years and more are showing a dark and difficult picture of divorced children, with long-term adverse effects lasting well into adulthood.

One million American children experience divorce every year.
Single parent families increased from 13% of the U.S. family population in 1970 to 31% in 1994
56% of divorced children had no contact whatsoever with their fathers in the first year after divorce, and 23% had no contact after five years.
Divorced children had the deepest feelings of anger, fear, and rejection of any childhood group, and were three times as likely to receive professional help as kids from intact families.
Suicide rates for teenage males increased 557% from 1946 to 1988.The single best predictor of teen suicide was parental divorce and living in a single parent household.
Rates of depression, low self-esteem, drug and alcohol abuse, and juvenile delinquency were all significantly higher for children of divorce.
Divorced children drop out of school at twice the rate of children from intact families. They were twice as likely to be suspended or expelled from school, and consistently showed lower test scores, lower grades, and more placement in special and remedial classes.
Early sexual behavior was more frequent among divorced children
Divorced children were far more likely to cohabit and not marry.
Using an analogy to medicine and the FDA, the authors point out that physicians are required by law to inform patients if a drug has a major side effect in just 1% of cases. Shouldn't counselors, in line with our duty to informed consent, outline the myriad harms of divorce to those we counsel who are seeking one?

MrLocked-

Isn't it rich how this is ALL your fault?? Sheesh....the fog is THICK.

She agreed to NC letter?? I couldn't tell.....she was talking in circles.....has she ever considered politics?

Okay wait, I just re-read and see that she said she would agree to the NC letter, IF you signed something stating you won't take the kids.....Yeah, that's not gonna work. You don't give up ONE piece of ground, because this ain't over yet.

Just keep reinterating that you need the NC letter.....don't let her put conditions on it. She's still trying to control the situation. These things aren't up for negotiation.

Just stand firm, and be loving.....don't let her ruffle you. She's gonna get P.O.ed that you won't fold and play it her way.....but just stay the course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Harder than it sounds I assure you).

And BTW, good job on the picture thing.....you see....niceness confuses them! One day in the next week or so, send her some flowers and just have the card say something like "thinking of you".

And make SURE that you thank her when she says she broke contact (even if it your not sure it's true).

OW: I broke contact with the OM...I can't believe you're forcing me to do this.

MrLocked: Thank you for putting our family first.
(Yeah ignore the forcing comment if she'll let you)

OW: I'll write an NC letter if you'll sign an agreement not to take the kids.

MrLocked: I appreciate your willingness to sign the NC letter, our kids future is important.

It'll confuse the crap out of her....gotta remember she's not thinking clearly......try some of Orchid's reverse babble and LA's restating....that oughta get you through this conversations <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



God Bless,

-Caren

An idea on the negotiations....

She signs a NC letter and you both mail it certified delivery (return receipt requested).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's what you sign,

"Because my wife has ended her affair, I happily agree to sharing our children and our lives together. I promise to love, honor and protect my wife daily, cherish her as a woman of integrity and work towards a mutually fulfilling partnership.*"

"*Any future contact with affair partner makes this agreement null and void."

Would that be something you could sign in exchange for NC?

LA

Caren,

NC Letter, yes, agreed, but only if i sign something AND there was a time limit on it too. That time has come and past and my 'chance is gone forever'. (from an email). LA, 3 yr old... yes I certainly see that.

I am standing my ground and I will not let her control this. I ALMOST gave into her demands and had to step back for a moment to see that she was again trying to manipulate me again. She decided to break it off with OM on her own (well, maybe i helped a little), if she did or not is still to be seen. But since she decided breaking it off with OM was the solution to my removing the kids from her affair (she could of chose to see him on her own time) I am most definitely pushing NC and NC Letter.

Thanks for your suggestions.. Flowers, on my todo list. I will also work on a few special picture projects too. I like the way you think. Yes I know she will push me, it has been a lot easier lately to control myself and remaining calm and nice through all her attempts to get me to AO. Not working. AD's kicking in? Feeling of a bit of control? Dunno. The last few days she has not really done or said much that I did not expect or prepare myself for (thanks to you guys).

LA,

Definitely, I would sign that. Since our previous negotiations time limit has expired (hehe), i will introduce something as you suggested. I like it.

--

Cool.

Right behind ya. I think it is you who is keeping you calm. A little awareness of your changes, being nonreactive and right on...well, feel that pride, just a sweet two-minute swelling before the next thing comes. You earned it.

And as for three-year-olds...anytime you see someone's inner child come out, you're seeing pain...old, yucky, harsh pain. Kind of helps to know that, I think. Even when it is your own inner child.

LA

MrLocked-

Your time limit expired, eh? LOL!!!

She is grasping at straws. You see she knows what to do...she knows what's *right* but it is painful to even think about actually ending it with OM. (She may be saying she has but I guarantee there is still contact).

Just keep on the Plan A track. It's working, it's confusing her. As I told you before, this almost gets fun.

When I was doing a separated Plan A, I pulled out all the stops. I rarely, if ever, mentioned the OW, I was having more, better SF with him everytime I saw him. (This was one of his top EN's)

During the time that we were in *false recovery* I called OW......I let her know that at NO TIME during their entire relationship was he EVER faithful to her. He was having SF with me the ENTIRE time. She said "Well he's a a-hole!" LOL...(true, but really beside the point).

I don't know what's going on with me right now....but fortunately I do know what's going on with you.

You should start planning to do fun, family stuff with the boys and invite her along. (Prepare yourself for her to say no...but she could say yes). Take 'em to Magic Mountain or someplace else. Try to slide *family time* in there.

You're doing Great!!

God Bless,

-Caren

MLU: We also have sons almost the same age as yours. I can imagine their hurt and confusion. I know you will do all you can to protect them through this.

Do not agree to anything. Not a single thing, except maybe what LovingAnyway said. You are not in a state of mind to make agreements right now, and if you do make a promise or agreement it will come back to bite you. That was my sad experience. (I'd promised I wouldn't expose, then later I concluded I HAD to expose. My violated promise made things much harder). Avoid this kind of thing.

Keep treating her well. It's very difficult, but very necessary. Do not hurt her emotionally, just be firm in your loving behavior towards her.

Thanks wnh.. Very good advice and I will adhere to it.

Caren, yes. I have been doing that. Planning things with the boys and I always invite her along, or even to come over on movie night, to cook dinnner, etc. Various things. To date all has been a 'no' but thats ok, this is what i expected. We still have fun.

Today is my Ds9's birthday. Hard to believe he is 10 already. I know I should probably not feel this way, but these 'special' days just don't feel so special anymore. But I always seem to be able to put on a happy face and pretend for the children. Its a lot easier now though then it was back in December.

My WW is a total nut bag. One minute, she seems normal, nice , easy going.. a little bit of time later you can not do a thing right. nice, mean, nice, mean, mean, nice.. wow. I think I saw two or three personalities today. There may have been more. She has been like this for awhile but it has progressively got worse, especially this week.

With today being Ds10's birthday she did have some running around to do. I tried to help, snap, attitude, etc.. don't want your help. Wow. We normally have a Family Party for each kid and a party where they have their friends over. Tonight is Ds10's friends party. I was going to stop by to see him during the party since I could not get away from work (busy day and had a meeting). "You can come over before the party but not during" What? And why not? "I do not feel comfortable with you there at the same time the kids are". Ok, you do not want me around the children. I am their father, they have seen me before. So have their friends. Please explain. "I am not sure who will be here and I wont feel comfortable with you here". Ok, so if you are really honoring NC then there should be nothing to worry about right? "His kids are coming, im not sure who will be dropping them off".

I know she's a WS and not my W, but i still cant help but think she must really think im stupid. I can not believe half the crap that comes out of her mouth MOST of the time. Its getting easier and easier to weed through the lies and BS.

So I left home at 5, picked up his cake from bakery and went over to see Ds10. Only stayed for about 15 minutes then left. I tried to assist WW with getting ready for the party but no, no thanks, don't want your help. Angry angry angry.

I think I did good though. She was not able to get any AO's out of me. But her attitude, it is getting worse and harder to deal with.

Going out tonight. Deserve a break. Tomorrow will be another fun day. Family birthday party. Interesting.

--

I dunno....I think I'd show up at that friends party.....take something cool over there like a *laser tag* game or something.

Gotta make those WS squirm ya know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Where is the family party gonna be???

God Bless,

-Caren

Happy Birthday, DS9!

I agree with Caren wholeheartedly. See, you're not having an A. OM is the one who shouldn't be around the children. You should be, even around his children.

15 minutes isn't cool enough for such a great occasion. I think I'd bring a camera to commemorate. Take pictures...which you're awesome with...and you know, that might accidentally document his presence. Oops.

You're not alone on special occasions and Plan A. My middle son's bday (friends party), and my youngest (had him on mine) party...oh, those were tough days. Truly. However...

Best present in the world was the following year, family all together...and each of us appreciated it.

We really do.

LA