Totally agree with MM on this in every way!!!

You've HEARD him say he's ready to work...now it's time for him to PROVE that he's ready.

And, MM's right in that he needs to know what's got to happen here...and that direction needs to come from Caren.

Personally, I think that this is a good START. Follow MM's advice here, and I think you can use this to move forward...CAUTIOUSLY.

Okay, so........I make the list now?? I sorta wanted to talk to him face to face, to be able to gauge his reactions to what I'm saying, etc.

I don't want to overwhelm him, so I should probably keep it down to the bare essentials of what I absolutely MUST have to even think about this.

Okay so what I told him last night was:

1. He had to get his car either out of her garage, or give her the title.

2. We need to get the rings. (I don't know if he has the money to do this, but this is actually more important to me that he does this first, even before the car thing)

3. A promise to NC and an NC letter. (You guys said it should be written by him, but he didn't graduate from HS, and the written word sort of evades him.) I KNOW he's going to say the letter isn't necessary, because he's not in contact with her, but I will drive the point home that this HAS to be done.

4. Access to his cell phone account and I want both of us to account for our time.

How's that??? I don't know what else to put in there.

So, I was thinking of having him come over tonight after work (9pm) to talk about it.

I know I have to give him direction....I think that was what all that "I have to fix it" talk was all about, he knows he has to make amends, but isn't sure what to do. (Hint, candy and flowers won't do it).

I am not all excited and teary like I thought I would be. I am actually apprehensive....I'm worried. And I suppose that's to be expected. I've been dealing with a rattlesnake for a long time now, I don't want to let down my guard and get bitten again.

So, I figure I'll have him over to talk. I'd like to know the truth about his original wedding ring.....even if he hacked it into pieces or melted it down. I'd like to know what became of it. I don't mind new rings......this is a new thing we're doing here, so a new ring would be appropriate.

I didn't give him a time frame of when I'd like these things done, but I want them done post haste.

Okay I gotta hop off here, I'm at work, I'll check in when I get home. (It's 1:10 pm now, I get off @ 5:00pm)

Thanks for all your input.

(((((((((Intruder))))))))))) I hope you get your happy ending.

Mortar. Thank you, I knew I could count on you, you never let me down.

Everyone else, your concern for my screwed up life is genuinely appreciated, from the bottom of my heart I thank you, it means a whole lot to me.

Thanks and God Bless,


-Caren

No, no, no! What that allows is for him to gauge YOU! And to do what he needs to do to get you to bend.


This is exactly right. It is what I said above. The first list needs to be the bare essentials that you need to prove that he is surrendering. The things you outlined in the talk are a good start. None of them are earth shattering for him IF he is serious.


First off, if that is what it will take to convince you he is SERIOUS, then that's good. The counseling and other things will be in the second list that you BOTH develop together. He will have things he needs for you to do also. That is why the second list needs to be POJAd. On the NC letter...pull one off here as an example or out of SAA. It is just a template. He could use it word for word. But HE needs to do it. It cant be you, as it will appear that you are forcing the letter. The letter MUST come from him!


Big mistake, Caren. These are surrender negotiations. First off, I wouldnt be in the same room with him yet anyway. The talk by phone is good. And as was said above, you dont need anymore talk once you give him the list until he has done those things. Second, when you do start off in the same place talking, it should be in a public place. Not behind your lines! You dont go allowing him to blow past yoru boundaries, just because he said some nice things last night! Use the phone. Talk this thru. When he isnt home, drop off a copy of the NC letter with instructions. But dont do this Caren.


Fixing it aint coming over to your house to talk! Fixing it is taking care of the things on that list! That is first and foremost.


This is good! This is how Plan B is supposed to be. But you let him in your door right now, you will be making a big mistake.


Talk on the phone. And only about the things he needs to do. Teh rest can be talked about over the months and years of recovery.


Caren, you are doing well. Dont blow this. Do this right so you can be done with this mess you have been in.

In His arms.

Well crap, I already asked if he wanted to come over. Well changing my mind is my perogative I suppose.

I don't know if I'm over analyzing this....which is highly possible, but he seems like he's approaching me with extreme caution also, he seems apprehensive too, and it's freaking me out.

When I asked him if he wanted to come over, he hesitated, and I didn't like it one bit. I said "I can hear the reservation in your voice, that doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy Mark" He said "Well, I just think we need to be careful, not jump right back in" (which NO ONE suggested)and although I agree with that statement, who the h3ll is he to have ANY fricken reservations? It's everything I can do not to blast him when I'm talking to him, I just feel like screaming. And I know he's not a mind reader, and he only has a very vague idea of what I need, so I can't expect him to be able to meet my needs right now.

But my needs have gone unmet for so dang long, that it's so hard to keep my *taker* at bay. It's so hard not to say "Okay Mother F-er, it's my turn now."

I don't know I don't want to bull doze him, and I guess I'm very capable of that, and I always have been, but I put everything aside for a long, long time and concentrated on him, and our marriage and forgot about me, well I remember me now.

Okay I'll look for a NC letter template and print it off here at work. I'll also print off the list and I'll cancel our meeting. I know I have to do this right, it's tempting to jump the gun....what with my itchy trigger finger and all.

Arrrrrrrrrrrgh.

God Bless,

-Caren

Change it. Ask him to the local Starbucks instead.


And if this is all for real, then he probably is. But you need to figure this out first.


Caren, stop it! He has no clue...and you are now talking about him meeting your needs. You aint there yet! he has to first surrender. Needs being met will happen in recovery.


This will be YOUR biggest issue in recovery! You will want to destroy everything because your Taker will want to have a field day. You had better beware of this Caren. As a matter of fact, once in recovery, you will need Mark to ready for that. And both of you POJA a solution to the problem of Caren's Taker taking over! Once in recovery...true recovery...the biggest threat to the marriage is the BS!!


A lot of "I's" in there, Caren. No way this is going to work with that. If Mark is sincere and has seen the light...you have NO RIGHT to go off on him. That is no right and still expect him to love you and remained married to you! I know it aint fair (I KNOOOOOWWWW!!!). But as SH said to me..."you wanna be right, or you wanna be married?"

The end of the Civil War in the US, the Union could have locked the South up and threw away the key. But they didnt. Instead, after the surrender (see?...a KEY point!!), the Union welcomed their bretheren back with open arms. If they hadnt...then the country would have NEVER repaired itself. And neither will your marriage if you go trying to exact revenge or heap unwarranted demands upon him!


Caren...you need to start thinking this thru. If you cant stop your impulsiveness, then repeat after me..."Mark, I need to think on that. I will talk to you tomorrow."

That is the response you will give to him in almost every occasion. Then, you come here and post. You go home and think. You sleep on it. And then get back to him on the issue at hand. But no off-the-cuff statements or agreements by you, okay?

In His arms.

I'll be the dissenting voice here.

I agree you should met with him...keep it short, just an hour...meetings shouldn't last any longer than an hour...I heard that somewhere as a rule of thumb.

I wouldn't take a NC letter to the meeting, this is making it WAAaaay too easy for him...he needs to write it, you approve, make suggestions on what to add or subtract, then you mail it together. It has to be in HIS words...too easy for him to borrow someone else's words and write it from his head...

The demands you can make...great, guidelines, but I think HE needs to make the llist of how to reconcile himself, or at the very least, come up with it together...

again, I think as BS's we make it WAAaaaayy to easy for the WS's if we give them a list of demands, they initial off, and then what...resent YOU for demanding it later and give you excuses for not doing these things? Or turn around and do just as foul, but not the same things?

The reconciliation has to be a partnership...like you said Caren, no steamrolling, and you have to ge the WS to *think*, not just go along with...

That's not to say the BS doesn't have a SAY in the recovery/reconciliation, but it has to first come from teh WS to make it better...they broke the vase, they have to get the glue and start the process...

Still Here,

Again, I agree with you once they are in reconciliation. But the boy has to show he is surrendering here. Which means he needs to do some things...while Caren does NOTHING! That is except Caren does list the things that need to be done BEFORE they go to reconciliation.

If he doesnt do them, then hey...he wasnt serious! And she goes back to Plan B.

Simple!

In His arms.

BTDT, Caren has doen enough up to this point...yes, Caren does NOTHING...at first, she agrees or disagrees, makes suggestion, and at the end of the meeting, he has convinced her with his plan, or hasn't.

What does HE bring to the table...

Well, the reconciliation table...they both bring their wants, needs, desires, lists, etc.

But when surrendering, he need not bring anything. He just needs to "do." Do the right thing. No contact letter. Do what is necessary to make Caren feel safe enough to trust reconciliation.

What does he bring to the table? Himself. And when I say that, he brings Caren's husband who is willing to do what Caren needs. He doesnt need to guess. He doesnt need to add to her list. Caren knows what she needs...he probably doesnt.

So, he needs to do what Caren needs. Which means she has to tell him...and then sit back and wait until he does this.

Once that is done...then they both sit down at the table and brainstorm how reconciliation and recovery will go. Thats when they both do the EN questionare (and love buster questionaire). That is when they go to counseling. That is when they list the things they want to see changed in the marriage. Together.

The boy doesnt need to figure out a thing because he most likely will waste his time on things that dont matter to Caren. All he needs to do is what Caren needs for him to do in order to surrender.

In His arms.

hi Caren,
You're get great advice here...I'm taking notes and keeping you in my prayers. Stay strong this will work out the way it is suppose to.

It should be very clear very quickly, if his phone call last night was more button punching, come-dance-with-me, or if it was sincere.

Caren ~ there is NO rush here. No need to make impulsive decisions. In fact every decision you make right now should be sat-upon for 24 hours before you act.

Meeting with him in person gives him a fix.

Do not give him fixes.

This is probably your last chance to be taken seriously my dear, don't blow it.

I guess my feeling about this meeting, and the reason I am giving the advice I am giving, is that I'm not convinced this is anything other than a negtiation to return to the way things used to be...

Caren, at the first glimmer that this is just more of the same, he hems and haws about something to do, or not to do...then you are out of there, and dark again, K?

At this stage it is WAaay, too easy for him to agree to ANYTHING.

If you do bring a list of demands, you pass it along, you talk about ways he will prove these have happened, and you talk about how he can contact you afterwards, then go home and go on with your life...ball's in his court.

Does he not have a clue up till now what the path back home is? I thouhgt you had been pretty clear about what you would want, is that not true? Is he waiting to hear it again?

Okay, I can't seem to find a template of an NC letter. Can you point me in the right direction?

Sorry about my little outburst, I guess I just had to get those feelings off my chest, now I feel better (and a little guilty for saying the *warm and fuzzy* comment to him).

Okay, so I'm sorta putting the cart before the horse thinking about EN lists and what not. I do have HN/HN on tape, should I reserve giving him this? (I'll admit I haven't listened to it....I read the book about a year ago, but I could use a refresher as well).

So lay it out for me Mortar.....tonight I am presenting him with what he needs to do in order for this to go forward any further, correct? Do I actually give him a piece of paper...or verbally give him the list? And then I sit back and wait for the results...right? Before doing anything else.

But, I don't know what a reasonable time is, I mean I want this crap done yesterday, but that's not reasonable, and I know it's not. I am not aware of what his current financial situation is, therefore I don't know when he will be able to afford to purchase new wedding rings (Should I be a part of this? I mean as far as paying 1/2 or something, or should it all be him?) Also, he has expressed to me today, that he doesn't want to *give* the car to her, that he'd like to get it back. So there again, that's going to cost money, he's going to need to get triple A or something and arrange for OW to let him get his car. (What should I do about that, I mean that basically means he'll have to be at her house, that freaks me out too.) I am used to doing things *for* him, and I know this stuff can't be done *for* him, hence the fact he has to write the NC letter, so it's just hard for me not to do it all for him.


Should I help out financially with what I am requesting of him?

I don't trust my own judgement, so I am probably going to have to use the "Let me think about that and get back to you tommorrow" approach a lot I think.

Okay, so I am changing the location of our meeting, keeping it relatively brief and not being demanding. I know I'm going to thank him for working on this with me.

I really do love him, and I really am grateful.

-Caren

Still, I'm sorry, we must have cross posted.

Points taken, I know it can't be more of the same, and I realize this is probably my last shot at this, so I have to make it count.

My PBL didn't really list conditions this time, it said "I think you know what it would take to make me believe your serious..." And, I think that he thinks since the *relationship* with OW is over, that nothing more needs to be done in that department. WRONG-O.

-Caren

My feelings on the meeting is that you're giving him the "fix" of your company. Also, if you're alone with him, there could be some touching and such that might lead to SF. I think you want to keep away from that for now.

I wouldn't buy him the HNHN book. I'd let him do that on his own. He can go by a bookstore and pick one up just like you can and that shows effort.

He should be, at this point, saying "What can I do?" "What are your conditions?"

I'm a little upset that he would even want to get the car back- unless it's worth quite a bit of money- I would think his marriage means more to him than that. Not being critical, that's JMO.

Caren,

I've been hesitant to chime in with any advice because my inclination is to sit back a while longer.

However, I truly see the point that MM is making to you and he does have a recovered marriage.

What worries me about your post and specifically about the quotes above is that you are already setting yourself up to do all the work.

None of these questions are yours to answer. You shouldn't even be thinking about them other than to know that you need the END RESULT of the actions he needs to take.

It doesn't matter how he resolves the issue with the car - as long as he does it with NC and gets it done. He DOESN'T need to see OW and he needs to figure out a way to make sure that happens. When I say it doesn't matter, I mean it is for HIM to plan and execute. Not for you. Once you have told him what you need and he has acknowledged it, IMHO, he needs to GET IT DONE. Telling you what he wants to do or not do and engaging you in a discussion on it as you wrote above smells to me like the beginning of trying to negotiate your terms - of NC whatsoever, of dealing with the car, who knows. He seems to be trying to get some footing (control) back. Negotiation of your terms can not be accepted.

I wouldn't help him out financially either.

You may need to let him know what your needs are but he must do the actions to get them done. You laying them out for him doesn't show you anything. Actions speak louder than words. If you are doing all the action, what can you learn?

I know you know all this. I'm encouraged by the fact you said you realize you can't do it for him. But in this case, YOUR actions are more important than your words too. Allow him the opportunity to make himself and you proud of him. What we have to work for is usually more valuable to us than what is laid before us.

Best of luck to you Caren. You have worked very hard and deserve all the happiness in the world.

FIM

Thank you FIM and Coachs for your opinions.

I don't know what I'm doing right now, I honestly don't. Plan A I got, Plan B...well it took a long time to sink in, but I had it down this last time (not for long...but ya know), but recovery is a totally different animal altogether and so I'm trying to approach it with caution. That's why I asked those questions about my role in all this.

I don't know how capable of writing a NC letter he is. He never graduated from HS, and the big words trip him up. I wanted to print an NC letter to show him what I meant, so he could have some sort of idea of how to do it. In the past, if he had to correspond with anyone, be it via e-mail or snail mail or whatever, he always told me what he wanted to say, and had me write it for him. I'm not saying he's an idiot, I'm just stating the facts. I don't know, I needed a template to write my Plan B letter.......

I was asking you guys what I should be doing, so I don't screw it up.

I wasn't going to *buy* him HN/HN...someone gave me it on cassette, so I was asking if I should let him use it, and at what stage that would be an appropriate thing to do.

I know that SF is consistantly a bad thing in everyone's posts to me...LOL, so I don't need to ask how you feel on that one. Can I ask though.....when is that okay?? After he has met all the conditions? After he is starting to meet the conditions?? I have no clue. I have been scouring this site all day looking for the answers to this and a lot of questions...but I'm not sure what the correct answers are. And MB & you guys brought me this far, I know that it and you can take me the rest of the distance.

My husband isn't shallow, but I believe that for him, like most men, sex is a motivating factor. Not the only one, but it would be stupid of me to discount it. It is definitely going to be hard, because SF is a HUGE EN of mine. It hasn't always been, maybe it's my age, but it's like I'm in heat...Lord!

I feel like I'm going to start dating my husband. I wouldn't have given up SF right away when I was dating him (and I didn't) and now again, I have to with-hold SF due to this.

Okay so, anyway. I guess I'll write up my list, and have my talk with him tonight

BTW, just for purposes of education, my husband hasn't been *seeing* the OW for about 8 months. Last known contact was January 8th.

And last night, I was talking to my husband. It wasn't the WS anymore....it was my husband. I can't believe he finally made his way out.

-Caren

Caren,
I get tired just reading your posts!!

You have so much energy...and I keep thinking while I'm reading, "just slow d.o.w.n...)

This marriage didn't get broken in 1 week and 1 week of plan B and a meeting ain't gonna fix it.

You have done an amazing job this past week since moving out. And it appears to be getting his attention. However, like others are saying, he needs to prove to you that he is sincere and ready to do WHATEVER it takes to win you back. Not you doing whatever he can't do to make it work. If he really wants you, he will get you!

And as far as SF...um...NO! No way! Isn't Plan B a plan about no longer meeting his needs so he finds out what it is like to be without you? A brief public meeting and then see what he does.

As soon as you made contact with him you started just like the other times....you got all excited and forgot "THE PLAN". Don't lose your control this time....State the facts and let him make a move.

You can do this! I know you can....don't waste this huge and effective effort you made (moving out on your own, without him or his help)by trying to solve your marriage issues in one night!

Go Caren!! I am really rooting (?) for you. This can work.
Good Luck!

P.S. And I don't understand the ring thing at this point...why not wait until you are on the road to recovery and then talk rings? Maybe then they will have a new and wonderful meaning...ya know, we worked it out, started all over, and now with these new rings, and new life...rather than stressing over money to buy rings when recovery hasn't started...just my thoughts.

Best of luck tonite.

Caren - you are gettting waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy ahead of yourself here.

You are not in recovery.

There should be no thought of wedding rings or SF right now. Stuff like that is for much later.

You are not in recovery.

You are trying to see if your WH really wants to return and be an H to you instead of a WH.

That is all.

You are not in recovery.

If you keep forgetting that, you'll never get there in the first place.

"Are we there yet?"
"Are we there yet?"
"Are we there yet?"

No.
Mulan

I don't know married...It's always stuck in my craw that he doesn't wear his dang wedding ring, nor even know where it is. I want that ring on his finger. My commitment has NEVER wavered, and it will make me feel leaps and bounds better once it's taken care of. I don't know why, but it's always been important to me. I want him to unashamedly wear something that says that he's married. I mean I don't know about anyone else, but I always look for a wedding ring on an attractive guy....Not that I'm even interested in them, it's force of habit.

I know that I go fast, I know I do. It's not exactly that I look for the quick fix, it's that I think of everything all at the same time, and I want to find a solution to everything right away. I'm hyper, and I tend to take on everyone's problems and try to fix them...be it my husband or one of my friends....and I know I shouldn't, people have to figure this crap out on their own.

I also overachieve.....if you've read any of my posts, you'll know that not putting my marriage back together was never an option. I felt confident that it would work out, and I still think it will. I am not trying to sound cocky, not at all, I would have never made it without you guys, I probably would've been in jail on assault charges by now.

I know that I tend to lose my head, it's one of my faults, which is why I post here.........I need someone to talk me through it. My head literally swims (I never knew what that expression meant before all of the *A* crap, I just thought it meant overwhelmed, but I almost feel dizzy when it happens and I can't think straight).

Oh well, I don't really have much else to say. Mark doesn't get off work until 9pm, so I have a few hours to kill, and my house could definitely use my undivided attention (Not that I can give it that...LOL).

Thanks and God Bless,

-Caren