I was talking to my daughter Jeni in Florida (She's 20)on the phone, and Mark beeped in (To tell Brooklyn goodnight). I ignored the beep and kept talking, then I told Jeni, that I needed to get off the phone and go to bed.

I went upstairs and Lauren (DD14) yelled up to Brooklyn that her cell was ringing. Well she only has a few minutes left on it, so she said "Yeah, it's Daddy, I'm calling him now" (From the house phone...since she gave him the number it's pointless not to call him from it).

So she was talking to her Dad about her school day, and things like that and then she said "Okay, hold on...." Then she said "Mommy.......Daddy said he's sorry, and he loves you" I didn't say anything, then she was talking to him again, and she said "Hold on" and she kissed me (from him).

I sat there kind of shell shocked again (like when he asked me out for dinner on my birthday).

They hung up and I didn't say anything, and I said "Sorry about what?!" to myself and Brooklyn thought I was asking her.....and she said "I dunno Mommy...." I said "Oh, no honey, I was just thinking out loud" so I sat there and thought about it, and I decided to call him back, so I dialed and he answered and

I said "Sorry about what?"

He said "What?"

I said "You love me and you're sorry about what?"

He said "Everything, everything I've done to you, I am soooo sorry, I love you so much"

I said "What does that even mean?"

He said "What are you talking about?"

I said "I don't know what that means"

He kept saying that he was sorry, I said "Mark, I don't know what you're sorry about."

He said "Everything, Caren, Everything I've ever done to you. You're all I can think about, everything I've done to you keeps running through my head. I've messed everything up so badly, I'm so sorry"

He kept telling me how sorry he was that he loved me that he missed me that he'd been to his lawyers and told him he didn't want to divorce me.

I said "Well, let me tell you what I need from you, then you can think about what you want to do, okay?"

He said "Okay"

I said "Well, I'm going to either need you to remove your broken down car from OW's garage or give her the title"

He said "Okay......."

I said "And neither one of us is wearing our wedding ring, I CAN'T wear mine, because the diamond fell out, but neither one of us is wearing a wedding ring, that needs to change"

He said "I know.........Caren, I miss you so much"

I said "I miss you too Mark"

He said "I have to fix things"

He said he had to fix things like 10 times.

I said "What do you mean you have to fix things?"

He said "I need to fix things, ya know, with us"

I said "No, YOU can't fix them by yourself, we have to fix them together."

He said "I messed everything up so bad Caren, you didn't do anything, you tried to fix things, and it didn't work, I need to fix things"

I said "Mark, it didn't work because *I* was the only one trying to *fix* things, it can't be done alone"

I said "Have you talked to OW?"

He said "No, why would you bring that up?"

I said "Because we have to talk about it, because I'm scared and I need to know"

He said "No.......I haven't spoken to her at all"

I said "Does she have your cell phone number?"

He said "No......."

He said "I miss you and the kids so much, I didn't think I'd feel this way, ya know? I thought I wanted this, I thought I would hate you, I know you probably hate me."

I said "I don't hate you Mark, I love you"

He said "....but I don't hate you, I don't want this, I want you"

I said "I'm scared Mark...........I can't be hurt again"

He said "I know, I'm sorry I hurt you, you don't know how sorry I am"

I said "Mark.........you had your Mom and your sister calling and yelling at me"

He said "I never told them to call you....they just did it"

I said "They were MAD at me Mark......I didn't do anything, and they were yelling at ME"

He said "I know, I'm sorry....."

I said "You don't need to keep telling me your sorry"

He said "Yes I do, I need to do a lot of things, I need to fix a lot of things"

I said "Can I ask you a question?"

He said "Yes, anything"

I said "Did you want to divorce me because you thought you'd done too much damage to the marriage and you wanted to start over?"

He said "YES! I've hurt you too much, I've done too much, I wanted to start over again, I wanted to press the reset button"

I said "Mark, life doesn't have a reset button, trust me I've been looking for one for over a year now"

He kept telling me he had to fix things, and it struck a chord I heard when we got back together last time...he kept saying he had *things to take care of* before I moved back in, but would never elaborate on what those *things* were.

I said "You telling me that you have to fix things sounds a lot like it did when we were getting back together last time, you told me that you had stuff to take care of, but you never told me "what" that stuff was, that's concerning to me because you changed your mind last time.

I said "You realize this is going to be hard don't you?"

He said "What do you mean?"

I said "You're not always going to feel like you do right now, you're going to get discouraged and you're not going to feel all in love with me all the time, I'm just afraid you'll mistake that for not wanting to be with me again."

I said "I can't let you hurt me again"

He said "Baby, I'll never hurt you again, I'm so, so sorry"

He said "I miss you, I miss everything about you."

I said "Like what?"

He said "EVERYTHING"

I said "Sorry, you're going to have to be a little more specific"

He said "I miss coming home to you, I miss having you in bed beside me. I love you Caren"

I said "You know, you haven't told me you loved me in a really long time"

He said "I know, I haven't done a lot of things in a long time"

I said "No, you haven't"

He said "I want to fix that, Caren"

I said "What do you miss about me? Do you miss me cooking? cleaning? what?"

He said "I miss everything you do. You did so much, and I didn't appreciate it, and I know you were trying to fix this and I'm so sorry I didn't help you"

I said "This scares me Mark"

He said "What? Talking to me?"

I said "No....this, US"

He said "I'm sorry, I'm sorry you're scared, you have a right to be scared, I know how bad I hurt you"

Which of course he SO DOESN'T have a dang clue how bad he hurt me. He will likely NEVER know.

He said "I'm sorry, I don't want anyone else, I want you"

Then he said "Why wouldn't you let me take you out for your birthday?"

I said "I couldn't"

He said "Oh......"

Then he said "What'd you do on your birthday?"

So I told him, and he said "Oh, I got drunk......really drunk"

I said "Yeah, I know"

He said "What?"

I said "You sounded drunk in your voice mail"

He said "I didn't call you..........."

I said "Ummmm YEAH, you DID"

He said "When?"

I said "At 2:15 and then again at 3:20"

He said "What'd I say?"

I said "You said 'Hello, happy birthday, oh well guess I'll talk to you later"

He doesn't remember doing that.

He said "Well I have to get off here and go to bed" and I heard him keep telling the dogs "No, get down"

I said "Do you have those monsters sleeping with you?"

He said "Yeah, I have to."

I said "Why?"

He said "Because I can't sleep because nobody is in the bed with me"

I said "You have your pillow" (He has a dang body pillow that he would hug all night long [instead of me])

He said "Caren I told you I only did that because there's a dip in the bed and I kept rolling toward it" (He did tell me that, but, of course, I didn't believe anything that came out of his mouth).

I said "Oh, I also want those T-shirts I had to look at for 8 months GONE" (OW made him tie dyed T-shirts he REFUSED to throw away).

He said "I know, I will"

So then I said "Okay, well I'll let you go to bed...."

He said "Okay, I love you

I said"Are you okay with what I told you I needed?"

He said "What getting my car out of there or giving her the title?"

I said "Yes, and everything else"

He said "Yes, I'm okay with it"

I said "Okay"

He said "Goodnight Baby, I love you"

I said "I love you too"

He said "Sweet dreams"

And I said "Yeah, you too...."

Then we hung up.

I keep remembering parts of the conversation that I didn't put in. I asked him if he ever looked at the EN questionnaire I left there. He said "No, you have to understand how mad I was when you were gone, I threw all that stuff away"

I also asked him if he tore up the house the day I left. And he said "Yeah I did" I said "Why were you so mad?? This is what you wanted me to do" He said "I know, I'm sorry"

I said "Why wouldn't you take Brooklyn last weekend?"

He said "because I felt like you were controlling me"

I said "I don't understand, how was I controlling you? I was giving you what you asked for. For God's sake you asked me every week if I was saving money to move, and then I move and you're mad"

He said "I know, it's just that you had the control. I used to have the control, and now you have the control."

I said "I don't think ANYONE should have the control."

He said "You're right"

So, aside from my guarded optimism......I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about this.

I know the proof is in the pudding....he's not moving in here, and I'm not moving there. I will not go through this bullcrap again. We have MAD stuff to work through, and frankly, I'm not altogether sure he's up for it, but this is what I wanted, right? I mean it seems kinda soon......but is there really a time line, if he says he's willing to meet my criteria?

Let me know what you think. I have my helmet on. (I almost didn't post because I know people are going to think I'm caving again.....but I'm not, I am still not calling him tommorrow, and he better be making steps in the right direction in REAL short order or all bets are off.

Oh, and after I hung up, he called back about 5 minutes later and said "I just wanted to tell you that I love you and goodnight again"

I said "Goodnight, I love you too"

He said "Sweet Dreams..........."

I said "You too"

He said "Dream about me.........."

I said "okay"

Then he said "I love you Caren"

I said "I love you too Mark"

He said "Okay Goodnight"

Okay, I'm done now.......let the flogging begin.

God Bless,

Caren

P.S. Oh yeah and somewhere at the end he said "I'm sorry" again, and I said "Thank you"

Caren,

There is a NC clause isn't there? I mean, you are going to force NC with OW???

Wow, OK, this sounds good!... But like Bigkahuna says, you ARE asking for NC with the OW, right?

Caren - you suck at Plan B! I think he sounded a bit drunk - the way he kept repeating himself. Is that a possibility?

how about counseling and actually working the mb's program before you put your daughters through it again. let him show you, not tell you how serious he is

No, he wasn't remotely drunk, he sounded desperate, I know the difference after all this time. YES there has to be NC, I just got all turned around last night.

Counseling, neither of us have insurance, but working through the MB program YES.

Also, I'm not making a move, he's going to have to do it all, let's see if he can walk the walk.

I actually don't think this is me sucking @ plan B (although I admittedly do, I think this is different), I mean I'm not all starry eyed and hopeful, I'm extremely pessimistic if anything.

I wanted to wait to talk to him face to face to lay it all out for him, I didn't want to overwhelm him with things that have to be done, so I just hit the high points.

If he doesn't do what we've discussed, then I'm not talking to him again. I dunno, it's different this time somehow.

God Bless,

-Caren

There are so many peoples stories it's hard to keep them straight, but I thought you recently found evidence of calls between them? If so, he is still lying to you and not interested in being truthful. Would you want him back like that?

No, I hadn't found recent evidence. On his old phone he had called her (or visa versa, you couldn't tell by the print out where the call originated). He has a new cell phone, different number. And I plan on having full access to those records, and he can have mine if he likes.

No, I'm not interested in being lied to.

I'm just trying to figure this all out. I mean he said all the right things, I guess I need to sit down and make a list of things that we have to do, that there can be no negotiation on.

God Bless,

-Caren

Most recent call to my knowledge was on 12/08/05 for 2 minutes.

-Caren

make the list.....and there are many avenues for free help....how bout church? also most counselors do a sliding scale thing for patients who have no insurance. look into it before dismissing it.

be careful caren...all i see is words.....

Yeah, Nikko, right now all I see is words too............

The proof is in the pudding.

God Bless,

-Caren

Caren - Well, another fall off the Plan B wagon. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get right back on. Let him prove his intentions with actions.

WS's faced with Plan B figure out very quickly what kinds of things to SAY to get a response.

You are letting him get his Caren fix, without doing the things you requested. Wait for him to take some actions. No more discussing what he needs to do.

OK, how about this...

Ask him for a deliberate, specific PLAN for reconciling and recovering the M.

I think (and you know) he needs to do more than "I need to fix things".

Ask him to lay out, in writing, the things he is going to do, and the steps it will take to begin, middle, and end this road to recovery...

I would do it in a letter, and tell him it was wonderful to talk with him, but you don't want to hope too much and find out it is false hope. If it is time for reconciliation, it is time to do it right, and that means HE comes up with a plan...you can both meet once he's done that to talk about how to implement the plan...

Hey Caren!! I had followed your story back awhile ago. I haven't been here in a some time, but I have been watching your sitch since just before you moved out.

While reading this latest development, I have to say (at the risk of sounding like a "Girly-Man"), I just cried . I guess I have always had delusions of it happening with my situation. We (Our children and I) have not heard from my WW in over a year. Not at Christmas, birthdays or anything. I have had dreams of her coming to her senses and saying some of those things. But she left in October '03 and I am still trying to except the fact that it will not happen. I am having an especially hard time lately as I lost both my Mom and my Dad over the holidays last month. She doesn't even know my parents (Who loved her like a daughter) died. I am having the most difficult time in my life right now.

I know you have to be very cautious, but I am SO VERY HAPPY for you! I will pray that you, Mark and the kids live "happily ever after" and that he realizes the work involved and takes it very seriously. Be careful Caren and good luck. God bless you and your marriage.

Chris

Okay...here is my take.

First, Plan B is working. How do I know?


Exactly right! The man can see this. Caren can see this. this is EXACTLY why I LOVE Plan B! It is the moment that the BS takes control of the marriage and of the situation. The WS can never again (if the Plan B is done right) manipulate the BS. Caren will never again, if she does the rest of this right, be able to be manipulated by Mark...controlled by Mark. Now they are equals...standing toe-to-toe. And Mark has come to the reality that he loves Caren and that he is going to have to change because Caren has changed.

Look folks...this is like war. The battle rages on and on for awhile. And then the enemy asks for a ceasefire. Or the good guys decide to ceasefire and pull into their foxholes (Plan B) and wait to see what the enemy does next. Then from across the field, the enemy signals that they want to talk.

So, what are we to do? Sit there and ignore their request to talk? At some point, we have to approach the enemy to find out what they want. This is what Caren did last night.

In the negotiations, the enemy states that they want to stop fighting. Many times they want to negotiate their surrender. But the good guys state that certain things are not negotiable. That you will accept those things, or we go back to the battle. Other things can be negotiated.

What Caren did was find out what the "enemy" wanted. When the enemy began to talk of surrender, she then began to tell him the terms of that surrender (getting car back, wearing rings, etc). She didnt negotiate...she listed the terms of surrender. In this case, Mark said yes to them. So that means, what does she do?

Well, the key is that Mark is going to have to prove that he is surrendering. The good guys arent just going to jump out of their foxholes now and go running over and give big hugs to the surrendering enemy. Maybe they arent surrendering.

No, the enemy must prove they are surrendering. They must be the ones to come out of their foxholes, lay down their arms and be vulnerable. They have to prove that they are willing to stop the war.

In Mark's case, he will have to do this. How? well, he can get that car situation taken care of. He can write the NC letter and give to Caren to mail. He can agree to go to marriage counseling in order to begin to work thru the issues. And more. Caren knows what she needs for Mark to prove that he is indeed surrendering.

Caren, you should make that list here. Let us help work it out with you. The list should be all of the things that both of you need to do to work back together. List the things he must do before you will leave your foxhole.

You will end up having to present these lovingly. What do I mean by that? Well, if the "victor" in the war uses the surrender to abuse or overly control the one surrendering, then the whole thing could blow up and go right back to where it was or worse. So, Caren...you cant make a whole huge list of demands and stand there with your hands on yoru hips. It just doesnt work that way.

List what things MUST happen before you will begin doing anything on your part.

Then list the things the two of you need to do together before you can both move back in together. And the final list should then be the things the two of you do to move forward.

The first list is non-negotiable. Mark has no say in it at all. The second and third lists should be ones that once Mark does the first, the two of you can sit down and POJA them in order to have both of your needs met and both of you are healed from this (Mark will need things also!!).

This is a good thing, Caren. But only if YOU handle it right. Mark has no clue what to do next. You did well last night. Now, tell him what he has to do to surrender. Then sit down with the man and POJA what needs to be done for there for both of you to feel safe.

Keep your eyes open!

In His arms.

Hey MM,

I think the burden is upon Mark to start the list...of course Caren has the last line of veto power, but it is up to HIM to come up with a list of surrender terms.

It would be too easy for Caren to come up with a list, and for Mark to agree...

I dont think so. You see, first of all...Mark is lost. He doesnt know the things Caren has learned about marriage, infidelity, etc. Mark doesnt have the tools to properly understand this. It will be up to Caren to help him get those tools.

Secondly, this is a surrender! In war, the enemy doesnt get to make up a list of what they are going to do to surrender. The surrender terms are dictated to the enemy.

Third, Mark has no idea what Caren needs! He has to do certain things that she needs in order to surrender. What are those things? I dont know. I can guess on some. But I have no idea...only Caren knows. Mark has no idea either.

Once the terms of surrender have been met...THEN Mark can coem to the table and the two of them come up with the list of what to do to repair and grow their relationship.

But that first list...that list of surrender...Caren dictates that. And mark has only one choice...to adhere to it. Or...she goes right back to Plan B.

In His arms.

A couple of things on the list...I am only listing a couple you may not think of:

1. Scheduling more and more time with the kids and following through...a ramp up to coming home and fixing the trust issues they likely have...that he will be there no matter what...that he is once again a consistent and reliable parent.

2. No more telling kids to tell you he loves you or give you a kiss...the kids can know you guys are working on things but this is between you and him. He is not to give them hope or involve them until this situation is REALLY worked out.

3. He reads his needs/her needs...If you don't have it yet buy the audio version and require that he listen to it with you...then you can pause it and discuss it in real time (this was very beneficial for my wife and I).

Good luck - we will be pulling for you.

Mr. Wondering

Caren ~ I'm a little doubtful of Mark's intentions. I think that once he realized you were out of his control, he kept punching buttons til he hit one that worke - and accomplished victory - your return to the drama and the dance.

But that being said, you are where you are, no point in talking about what you SHOULD have done.

I think Mortarman has given you good direction.

I was able to make my list of demands through Steve Harley, and I know you can't do that in this case. But MM is right, Mark *doesn't* know what to do, you are going to have to provide some guidance. How about a copy of Surviving an Affair?

Caren, your only interaction with him at this point is to find out if he is doing (actions!) what he needs to do. No spending the night, no SF, nothing, you are NOT in plan A and should not be trying to meet his needs, nor get yours met. He is attempting to negotiate the end of plan B, don't get it confused.

This is exactly right! Good point BrambleRose!

In His arms.