LOL, you feisty redhead.

Focus, Caren. There's nothing wrong with being hopeful or excited. It sure seems there is a glimmer here. Just take a deep breath (in and out - not just in) and remember what you need to do.

Throwing some of that energy into some housework could be beneficial. It's nice sometimes to accomplish a task and with housework you can see immediate results (though they don't last long).

Thanks Froz, and yeah, it's the redhead thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mulan, I wasn't ignoring you, your post wasn't there when I started typing my last post (just wanted you to know). I didn't mean to imply that I was in recovery, I was simply stating that this is unfamiliar territory, and I didn't know what else to call this stage of the game (Yes, I know it's not a game...again, don't know what else to call it).

And I ALWAYS get way ahead of myself. I am trying to put on the breaks.

I get myself into trouble on here because I type every little thing that's going through my head.......it doesn't mean that's what I'm going to do, I just need to get it out.

God Bless,

-Caren

Wouldn't it be nice to let him pursue you for a while instead of instantly jumping back into chasing him?

Is one little phone call all it takes to get you to chase him around like a puppy?

Why don't you be just a little harder to get -- make him prove himself.

Good luck, Caren. AND TAKE IT EASY!

This is where I agree with TooSoon in the fact that it is your husband's problem. You lay out what he has to do. You ask him concretely how long will these take. And then you sit back and wait for him to do it. You have outlined the terms of surrender. He tells you how he will do it and how long. And then he goes and does it while you wait. And until he does it...you just wait. No dinners, no SF.



Good. You should be if this is real. But as was said above, this may be just a return to status quo for him. that is why the surrender terms...he has to show he is serious.

In His arms.

I'm not chasing him around.....I haven't said the majority of this to him. I say it here........

He does have to prove himself......but he first has to know what I need proven.

All I am doing is meeting with him, not chasing him.

He is the one that has the making up to do, and I'm fixin' to let him.

God Bless,

-Caren

Okay, so the house is clean, I'm going to go take a shower and call Mark and see where we're going to talk.

Wish me luck,

-Caren

Caren if you kiss him or go to bed with him or have dinner with him, you're gonna get it.

You shouldn't even say "I love you."

GC

LMAO Graycloud

Okay, I didn't have dinner with him and I didn't go to bed with him, although he looked pretty darn cute, I resisted.

I did end up letting him come over to my apartment, because I had no one to watch the kids. But the kids were around, so no hanky panky went on.

So anyway, I know I'll get 2x4's for that.

So, I called him and asked him to get me cigarettes, and I said "Don't you need directions?"

He said "No, I've been there, I know where it is."

I said "You've been here?"

He said "Yeah...."

I said "Okay, well see ya in a bit."

So he came in and sat down on the couch and I said "So when have you *been* here?"

He said "The day after you moved out"

I said "Oh, why?"

He said "Because I wanted to know where you lived"

I said "Oh, okay"

I told him that he needed to have NC with OW. I said that he had to write her a letter to that effect. He said "A letter?"

I said "Yes, because you can't have contact with her again"

He said "okay"

I said "You realize this goes no farther unless you do the things I'm asking of you. I need you to remove that car from her garage"

He said "I know"

I said "Can I ask what made you change your mind?"

He said "I miss my family"

He said "I had my family, and I pushed them away" (He looked teary eyed)

I said "How can you be sure that you won't change your mind?"

He said "Because I know now that all the stuff I was going through, it wasn't you. I thought it was you, but that wasn't what was wrong, I know now that I love you"

I said "Is that the 'I'll always love you' kind of love you've been telling me for 8 months?" (He wouldn't ever just say I love you....he'd say "Caren, I'll always love you, you're the mother of my child"...yeah that's real comforting"

He said "No Caren, I love you"

I said "Are we done hurting each other?" (He says that I hurt him before when I moved out on him...long story, I was clinically depressed and just kept thinking it was him, but I was depressed without him too)

He said "Yes, I think we've done that enough"

He said "So, your lease here is a year?"

I said "Yes"

He said "Well how's that gonna work?"

I said "I dunno....."

He said he wanted to buy his house, and I said "That never felt like my house"

He said "What do you mean?"

I said "I was living in it, but it was never mine...never ours, it was yours. I was cleaning your house, and staying at your house....but that's just it, it was YOUR house."

He looked sad.

So anyway, 10:30 pm rolled around and he said he needed to go home, the dogs needed to go out, and I said "okay".

He got his coat, and he went and took his glass to the sink and threw away his pop can.

He put his coat on, and I stood up to walk him to the door and he hugged me and he kissed me goodbye.

He went out the door and said "Okay, I'll see you later" I said "Okay"

Then I shut the screen door, and he was still just standing there looking at me, so I opened the screen again and he said "I love you" I said "I love you too"

Then he left.

He just called to tell me goodnight, and to have a good day at work.

Ooooo and somewhere in our conversation, he ACTUALLY asked me how my day at work was.....that's UNHEARD of.

So, anyway, he seems to be trying. He's not the cocky, hard a#$ that I just moved out on.

And now we wait.....................

God Bless,

-Caren

Okay, I'm whooped, I'm going to bed.

Night all, God Bless,

-Caren

sounds like a busy night. see ya tomorrow

Busy, and emotionally exhausting. No wonder you're whooped.

Sounds positive so far. It's good to hear you're all for baby steps.

Howdy, Caren...

I hope you remember me--well remember *us* actually as DD is right here with me. I know we have been away for a long, long time as you have continued to go through struggles with your marriage, but as dear friends who love you, you have brought us out of the woodwork.

First, I need to let you know that I'm a redhead too--more of a strawberry blonde than a flaming red, but I have that characteristic fiery energy too. Like you, for years and years I let my ENERGY get ahead of my good judgement, and believe it or not, I actually had to practice slowing myself down and thinking before I said or did anything. It has been recommended that you practice saying, "Let me think about that" and as a fellow-red--I strongly encourage you to start doing that.

Now, DD says you are not going to want to hear what he has to say. Speaking from his own experience, he says, "Darling, the fact of the matter is, it takes some TIME to break an old habit and establish a new one. The minimum to start a new habit is 21 days, and that's consistently working at it!" Caren, we both know that you are the fiery pistol that you are...and we both know that some part of your head knows this isn't good for you, and it's harming you, your kids, and your marriage. Sooooo...just looking at those facts alone, seven days of Plan B isn't really gonna cut it.

When DD went into his Plan B--Caren, I was there and I honestly thought it might kill him. I'm serious. You were there--you know how it was. Ever fiber of his being wanted to go back to the old abusive pattern, not because he wanted to be abused!! Oh, no!! But because it was what he was familar with...it was what he knew...there is comfort in something being "the same" even if it hurts! So, to get through a good Plan B, a person has to get through their own addiction withdrawal. Try to envision a drug addict. They will SAY or DO anything to get to their fix. Now, I'm sure you can see how the WS's are addicts trying to get their affair fix...but BS's are just as much addicts. We are HOOKED on our WS's. And when an addict stops having their fix cold turkey (as a good Plan B) IT HURTS!! Let me say that again: IT HURTS!!!!!!!

My dear friend, seven days may seem like eternity to you and it may be longer than you've ever gone before, but just as those withdrawal pains were getting painful--you gave in to your fix. Part of Plan B, and the part that is really, really hard, is letting yourself feel the pain ALL THE WAY and keep feeling the pain until you don't feel it anymore. Now, as long as you and Mark have been going round and round, I doubt if seven days is long enough. I bet you don't want to hear that, but that's just my opinion. And if you need help getting through the first part of Plan B, you know where we are--we can help you get through it and won't leave no matter how bad it gets. I remember for me, I wanted to call my exH SO MUCH that I was going literally crazy! Just to get through it, I went 15 minutes at a time and didn't call him...then another 15 minutes...then another. It's all I could survive! After I got past the first week, I knew I could live without talking to him, but I felt so weird...kind of empty and pointless. I mean, for most of my adult life I had spent my time catering to him and his demands and trying to "not make him mad"--so I didn't know what to do with myself. Finally, after maybe a month I began to realize I could find out what *I* like without someone teasing me or demanding I quit--and that's when I FINALLY started to disentangle from my exH. Whaddya think?? Does that sound like about 21 days to you?? Just to break MY old pattern (not my ex's...mine) I needed AT LEAST 21 days to myself to get through it.

After at least 21 days goes by, then you can start to think a little bit clearly because YOUR fog will be lifted--the fog of the unhealthy relationship. See your WS may still be just as foggy and be trying just as hard to get his addiction back (either via you or the OW) but YOU will be clearer. Then you will have the inner peace enough to be able to look at yourself and the kind of person YOU are, and look at Mark and the kind of person HE is, and then you will be in a place to start making your list of what is needed to maybe heal this marriage. At this point, I suspect any list you make would be re-engaging the old cycle--whereas after you have finish your own Plan B withdrawls and can think clearly, then maybe you could see what real repentance and surrender look like. Does that make any sense??

My dear friend, I hope you can learn from my mistakes and avoid the years of heartache that I endured. I wish you would pull up all my old posts (I was FaithfulWife back then) and see how I did the EXACT same thing that you are doing, and I did it for YEARS before I figured it out. I would separate from my exH for a week...the next time, a month...the next time, 2 months...and each time I went back to him, I believed his promises and had hope that I meant something to him and he wanted our marriage. Sadly, each time, within a short time after going back to him, he would go RIGHT BACK to his old habits (in my case, my exH was a serial cheater). Why?? Let me see if I can explain this to you.

My exH and I had a dance--he moved like this and I moved like that. He would make all kinds of promises, and I would believe him. He would do the promises for a while, and I would have hope and go back. Tension would start to build and he would start to have excuses for NOT doing the promises. He would stop doing the promises, and I would point it out to him. He would get mad, and I would get confused and try to explain. He would EXPLODE at me for (insert excuse here) and I would swear NEVER AGAIN and move out. He would make all kinds of promises, and I would believe him. See the dance??

Well one day, I finally saw the dance too, and I realized something huge: HE IS NOT THE ONLY ONE DANCING! I am too. And since I couldn't change him, I had to change me...not him. So I stopped dancing. He would make all kinds of promises and I would not believe him. This made him angry and kinda confused...why wasn't I doing the dance??? So he'd try MORE to make me do the old dance. When that tactic
didn't work, he would try other things...like yelling, accusing, blaming, forcing...anything he could think of to get me to re-engage in the dance. Then he'd try the opposite...flowers, candy, dinners, dates, counseling...anything to get me to re-engage in the dance. Do you see what I'm talking about a little? And every time he tried something new, I had to resist the urge to break Plan B--like he'd call with "I HAVE to talk to you. I have something important that you NEED to know!" or "I want to do the right thing and fix this family, but I need you to work too" or any other thing he thought might work. In order to stop that old dance I had to resist until he stopped trying...and he kept trying for a long time because he had exactly what he needed--a person to blame for all his shortcomings and a person who accepted being abused--me.

Can you see how you have not gone through this yet with Mark?

Now, when I did finally get through my Plan B withdrawls and start to think clearly, I did come up with a list of things I needed to see in order to consider repairing our marriage. Here's my list: 1) Admit he had a sexual addiction and address it--such as attend some kind of counseling or group; 2) Do something to address his physical (diabetes) and mental illnesses (bipolar; borderline personality)--such as go to psychiatrist; 3) Do something to make our marriage MUTUALLY happy, and that means that I am also happy in the marriage and having my needs met too...not just him--such as go to relationship seminars or marriage counseling; 4) Get remarried/renew our vows because the old vows were destroyed. Sounds like a good list, huh?? Here's what happened.

The first couple times, he would agree to do the things on the list...maybe even actually DO them for a little while. Then gradually he'd come up with excuses why he "couldn't" go or he'd put it off... and if I pointed out that he wasn't living up to his promises, he would go off on me. The next couple of times, I had him do the things for a little while FIRST (which royally pissed him off) and then came back part way through the process...and he'd stop going again! You'd think I'd learn, wouldn't ya?? Finally, the last time, he even went to far as to agree to GO TO VEGAS AND RENEW OUR VOWS!! I thought somehow that if someone said their vows again, they would MEAN them; but that wasn't the case. He said the vows and I moved back, and within 3 months he was cheating again.

My point to you is this, Caren. Learn from my mistakes. You go into Plan B and plan on a minimum of six months (yes ma'am I said it: six months!!) of no contact with him whatsoever. Do not coach him along. Do not tell him what to do and "remind" him to do it. Act toward him as if he is never going to see you again EVER. Then you deal with your feels of wanting to call and hurting, and you wait. Real surrender and repentance looks like Mark respecting your request for no contact...and Mark using only the method you gave him to get a message to you...and Mark going to a counselor ON HIS OWN to work on himself because it's good for him (not because "you told him")...and Mark going to anger management ON HIS OWN and remembering to go BY HIMSELF because he takes personal responsibility for his anger. See...if you lead him around by the nose, it's not recovery. But if he takes personal responsibility and does all those kinds of things for six months and respects your request for no contact for six months and treats you like he REALLY GETS IT on his own because he worked on himself...THEN (and only then) is it recovery.

Now, his working on himself may not be perfect...don't get me wrong...but you're not expecting perfection. You are expecting him to see you as an equal partner and see his own contribution to this mess AND WORK ON HIS OWN ISSUES BY HIMSELF. Okay???

We love ya and we won't leave ya, even if you cave again--but please read and re-read and then read again. You're in our prayers, tonight and always. ((Caren)))



CJ and DD

CJ and DD-

Long time no type!!! I hear you, and I understand what you're saying, however, I have already engaged him, and I'm not trying to punish or retrain him, I am simply trying to see if this can be repaired, and I believe it can.

Mark isn't abusive and was a FANTASTIC husband before the *A*, he doesn't serial cheat, and he was always very loving.

We've been together for 12 years...11 if you don't count this insanity, and for the majority of that time we've been very happy.

I love him, and I don't feel that we're dancing, and this time I have the Lord with me guiding me through this, and I know I'll be fine.

I appreciate your insight, you know I do, but I don't happen to agree with it. I don't see how cutting him off for 6 months *just because* is conducive to saving my marriage.

Thank you both very much, and I hope you're doing well.

I have to get ready for work now.

Good Luck and God Bless,

-Caren

Caren,
I've been bugged by your last post ever since I saw it early this morning.

CJ gave such a wonderful post of her experience and how hard it was for her to learn. She talked of the dance that her and her ex did...and how long it took to get out of that pattern.

You claim you aren't dancing. I think you are. And I can only go off what you are telling us so that is where I got my info. I don't think CJ is saying that you have to do exactly like she did, we all know Mark is not abusive like her ex was. "The dance" will cover many different behaviors and personalities.

I tend to think the 6 months, or 2 months or some time frame will be very good for both of you. Heck, you have a 1 year lease on your new place. Enjoy the peace of plan b for awhile. Now that you had your meeting, he has a clue what you need, sit back and see if he is willing to do anything about it. Not is Caren willing to set this all up for me so I can do it, but him doing it all by his self! Won't that feel good to see him working at making himself a better husband and winning you back?

This may be a good time to remind him that if he calls Brooklyn, he talks to and about her only. If he needs to talk to you about kid stuff, go through the approved channels of communication. DD should not be doing like she has been. Poor kid.

His actions and your actions are what matter now. Not this fluffy talk about how much you love each other and he was not a bad husband...if it was so great, why'd ya move out? I'm not trying to be rude...just trying to get you to think about it. It ain't all better yet. Be careful here.

Keep your chin up...you have made a big move with plan b and it has his attention. Let him do the work. You need a break!

Caren -

Hi - Baby steps, baby steps. I think moving ahead cautiously is key.

See what his response is to your talk.....Action talks.

Take Care!!! Hope you are doing well -

Kim

[quote]
I love him, and I don't feel that we're dancing, and this time I have the Lord with me guiding me through this, and I know I'll be fine.

I appreciate your insight, you know I do, but I don't happen to agree with it. I don't see how cutting him off for 6 months *just because* is conducive to saving my marriage. [quote]



Caren:

Goodluck.

By the way, there is no "just because" about any of this... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You are the dieter who celebrates a 5 pound weight loss with a trip to Country Buffet to pat yourself on the back.

It is all good, you'be "been there, done that"....and you'll probably be "there" again. I know you can take it, so I give it to you straight with no BS to take the edge off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Not much else to say. Posting quota for the day has been maxed.

Check back with you in a week... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem

Okay, I am taking baby steps. I had to work all day today, so I couldn't access the internet or I would have posted before now.

I was not trying to sound rude, I appreciate CJ's post, but she's coming from a different place. She and DD are together and happy and not with their former WS's, so they have a different perspective. I realize they are trying to help me, I do. And I appreciate it.

I saw Mark today, And I have the NC letter. It's a little rough, but he tried, right? So, here it is.

OW,

I want you to know I don't want to see you or talk to you anymore. Caren and me are getting back together. I miss my family I hurt them alot and I'm sorry for that. I made a mistake ever being with you to start with. I don't want to talk to you and I don't want you even coming into work to see Ashley.

Mark

So, yeah, I typed it just like he wrote it, it's short, and it's grammatically incorrect but it's him, and he wrote it and gave it to me to mail.

Now, here's a question. He hasn't arranged to get the car yet, so I can't exactly send it and tick her off before that, right?

So, he's trying.....I don't know what else I'm supposed to expect. I was happy that he went home and wrote it yesterday. He said he stayed up thinking about it and wrote it last night.

So what now?

God Bless,

-Caren

Ya know, wait a sec. I am proud, I'm proud that he wrote that.......I was starting to feel bad that my Plan B wasn't long enough or that I am being too trusting or something. But I don't think so.

He's doing the right thing. He's trying. And I appreciate it more than you'll ever know.

No....he's not off the hook, but he's making steps in the right direction.

He came over, dropped off the letter, saw Brooklyn for a few minutes and then he went home. No SF, no....c'mon Mark stay...he didn't even try to ask me. I told him thank you, that I appreciated the letter, he said "You don't have to thank me.....I'm sorry....I love you."

So, I'm not going to feel bad, because I didn't fit into some timeline I was supposed to fit into.

I'm sorry, I'm not.

-Caren

Okay, that is a good no contact letter. I see nothing wrong with it at all. To me a no contact letter is the litmus test of how serious the WS is about recovery. Yes, they could write one, and then ignore it, but usually they will just refuse to do one in the first place.