yes there is a payoff for the resentment i create. I guess it is that i don't have to do much thinking about my having to change. i can keep focus and WS changing. Also, i can sit in self-righteousness at ws. neither of these are really good payoffs. in the end i still feel very unfulfilled but it works for the moment i guess. it is like wanting to be with the most handsome,intelligent, charming guy you've ever met but settling for his not so cute, not so bright, friend.

So you feel like your resentments create a distraction off you and onto another person?

That you get to create as many as you want because you stay focused on changing other person and not yourself?

What does righteousness feel like to you? Relief? Joy? Safety? Strength?

If they are unfulfilling, with not so good payoffs, why do you make them?

Fascinating analogy at the end of your post. I'm going to have to think about that...because what I get right now, is that resentment is "the next best thing to being there."

LOL

I'm confused. I'll get there.

LA

yes la, i see it like that as it pertains to resentment. it seems to me that it takes work to get at the haert of them and change your thinking. often times i've found rather than struggle through my thoughts and feelings i just give in to my emotional rationalizations of judging ws. i guess i need to find a way to not just settle as giving into the resentment but maybe suppressing it until i can think things through more thoughtfully. does that make any sense?

Okay, so I really here you saying you want to stop obsessing about your WS. Is that right?

That it is so difficult, that you give into it. Find the payoff...you said it relieves you of looking at yourself.

What are you afraid you'll find?

Someone who isn't good enough? Whole? Maybe defective? Maybe not good enough even for a WS to love?

Where's your fear that keeps you in the obsessive cycle?

Or is it your belief that you are fine but he is the problem..hence, you fixate on him to fix your own life?

LA

gosh, you are realy challenging me! I guess I mainly fear that i'm not good enough. I feel a real sense of insecurity about most things in my life. My lack of accomplishment and my not feeling as attractive as I used to and jut a whole host of things just makes me fear that I don't deserve to be with the type of man that to me right now is only a dream in my mind much less the infidel of a H that I have right now.

Then at times I feel that I'm waging war with my ego that tells me I deserve better and makes me want to make my H correct all of the things wrong that he does, which to me is a host of things.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere, RC!

I have been in that two-extremes trap...unworthy and deserving better. I hear ya.

Let's go to where I began...even before the resentments timeline.

I was told by dear shrink that I was shame-based.

Huh?

What?

Okay...that resonated in me. So he had me read "Healing the Shame that Binds Us" by John Bradshaw.

Whoa.

Did you know, RC...that you are whole, not defective, completely made by the hands of God...and that he doesn't make junk? Just you, without a single action, earning, or accomplishment. As you are. Period.

That was flooring to me.

LA

la, i know that god made me and i guess i'm suppose to accept myself as I am. however i weigh whether i matter or am important by how much a accomplish. i've tried hard not to see myself this way but it always comes down to this. I feel as though my worthiness or value is based on how successful I am. With things not going so well, especailly in the face of such a failure as what is happening in my M right now it just seems that i can't really appreciate myself just as I am.

Does God do that? Weigh your goodness, compare you to others, by your accomplishments?

Sounds like your parents taught you that was love.

You control what you believe, nobody else. It isn't out of your hands, or a part of you. You were taught was love was from your first source. You had to earn it, be good enough to keep it and show something for your life!

All not true. God said he was love...you gonna argue? He said do not judge...because when you judge yourself, you judge others...and vice versa. He is the only judge. And he made you as whole and wonderful as every other human. Worth dying for, as I recall.

Go back in your mind to before you married. Go back all the way, if you have to...find out how much of a lie you tell yourself about it being the state of the marriage that keeps you from changing your belief. Find out why you need the lie.

LA

Hi La. I've taken some time to think things over as it pertains to my feeling, shame. I've not had so much of my problem with feeling like I was special because God made me and I am unique but in my trying to live by the expectations of others. I've suffered self-inflicted bouts with self-pity and a host of sadness issues because I was trying to live by the standards of others. Much of this was pre-M and was simply compounded with my M and problems with WS.

Now I guess I'm in a new place trying to find my place. I'm trying to find out what my boundaries are and then impose (lol), no influence WS to adhere to them. I've come some ways from being stuck in selp-pity mode but every so often I go there once again. Now I'm at trying to not do this. I'm at trying to live my life for me and make myself happy taking my own happiness as my own responsibility. I think this is something WS needs to do also.

He is like a little boy on the inside. WHen he has talked to me about how he feels I can't believe that some of the smallest things I've done have set him off. However I realize that I'm to take this seriously and not blow him off.

When I look at some of the things that OW told him I just can't believe that this was somehting he needed to make him "high in love". I try not to belittle him but respect it.

I am annoyed however that when it comes to serious things he doesn't want to talk about them and also he doesn't allow me to enter that happy happy joy joy love love goofy place he and OW were in. He doesn't want me to talk to him like she did. But how the heck else am I suppose to talk to
him? I figure I should follow suit. Anyway I realize we are so different. I'm understanding his needs better but it is hard trying to get accross to him my needs though at times I feel he sees them but just doesn't get it. AAARRRggh.

I guess it is eaier to just live in BS country dreaming of love. Anyway, I'm still tyring. I'm going back to resentment issues, still working with this. I realize that a lot of my resentment has to do with me and my own shortcomings/bad choices. Anyway I guess it is just a matter of dealing with them.

P>S> I've been asking in this forum but on another thread for the opinion of those recovered such as yourself. There is a poster named "Spidey" who wrote me on the 6th page. He just found out about his WS"s A and needs help. Would you mind looking in on him. it is under :Recovered Country men/women lend me your ear.

I really appreciate the time you took to respond. And the first sentence was great. You identified shame and some of its sources.

Up to reading a book? "Healing the Shame that Binds Us" by John Bradshaw. Was critical to me understanding me, and realizing how many people are affected by it. Very difficult to acknowledge...shame seems to bring shame, doesn't it? Powerful emotion.

You sound much more focused..and not entirely on WS. Kudos!!

Now, I'm gonna concentrate on just one sentence here...that you don't believe you have a problem with knowing you're unique and special, but that you've been living according to others' expectations.

Great realization. What I hear is that you learned to live externally...seeing yourself through others...and when they approve, you flourish...when they don't...well...

Why do you think, if you believe you're equal to others would you feel the need to live through them? God makes us all equal, lovable and whole, right?

I'll check in on Spidey. I'm very glad you're here.

LA

LA, I have something that I want to raise that seems urgent. I've posted this on my other thread also. I wantted to ask you here though.

Please help. WS and I had a talk today. He told me many things which I've taken note of and believe that he was sincere about. I am however concerned about one of them. Prior to this conversation, I expressed to him that I want him to be transparent with me and he agreed. However when I asked him this morning to allow me to look into something personal of his he felt I was like spying on him. He allowed me to, but was upset. He says he feels that I am a little paranoid. He probably feels more like saying he feels that I'm a lot paranoid. He also expressed that he doesn't like it that I am fearful about many things. I told him that I was sorry that he felt I was paranoid but it wasn't without connection to the behavior that he has exhibited. I expressed that I felt it wasn't just something I felt out of the blue, it was because of our past history and his affairs. He told me that he feels that I'm not letting go of what has happened and that I can't get over it. He also said he can't believe that I don't believe that he is acting in more trusting ways than he has before. It seems to me that though he is aware that his behavior has contributed to my concerned behavior that I'm overreacting. Can anyone help with how to handle this one? I realize that he is more forgiving in some things than I. Afterall, after the big mess I made with our finances he hardly mentions it. However I have mentioned how I feel about the A on several occasions and how I want him to show that he has changed. I feel I'm losing the battle. Thanks.

Darling RC,

Do you want to save your marriage or would you rather not upset your H?

You have to choose. He has his own feelings. Don't disrespect him by acting on his reaction. Or not acting because of what might be his reaction. Disrespects him and yourself.

Why would you be sorry for feeling fearful? You want to be an overnight success or live a fantasy. Thank him for not covering up--say you knew he would do as he promised and be transparent. Tell him your truth--this checking is about you, not him. Tell him that. You are attempting to find your way through the dark, discovering how much you fear, what causes it, and that you feel by doing this checking for now, you will rebuild your trust in him...each time he complies, you feel he is owning his actions, which reassures you. That it will take time and it isn't forever.

You won't allow yourself to continue doing this forever.

Why disrespect him by apologizing for his belief you're paranoid!!! Oh, RC...seperate your responsibilities from his...his beliefs are his. Yours are yours. Listen and repeat...no more DJs, please. Not to him or yourself.

He doesn't trust you to ever trust him again. You can't change that belief he has--honor it. Ask him if this is true. Say you hear him. Time and demonstrating that you respect that he is in control of his own emotions, thoughts and beliefs, will change those beliefs...because he will do it, not you or your actions.

You eliminated most of your Lovebusters...you are safe to communicate with, be O&H with...right? Well, you're not save until you stop DJs.

Please stop telling him he is to blame for your need to check. That means he controls you and you control him.

He ended his affair, owns it was wrong, and wants to recover with you. You are checking because you were betrayed severely and need to personally recover. This is about you, not him.

Your expectation that he should be doing this voluntarily and joyfully is a DJ. So, he complies and feels upset. He complied. That's a lovebank deposit. Don't block it with, yeah, but he should comply in the way you want him to.

You don't need to lecture your H. He knows. He says he doesn't see you letting go and that upsets him. He can deal with his upset. Ask him, "Do you have an expectation of how I should be thinking or feeling right now?" "Do you feel like I am not letting go or won't stop blaming you?"

You said it well..contriubted to your behavior..didn't cause it. Excellent. You own part of it is you--your fear of abandonment, of allowing someone to deceive you and deceiving yourself. Issues in you are part of the aftermath of the A...and there is self-betrayal as well as spousal betrayal. So glad you're getting that. Assure him, lovingly, that you are healing, molecule by molecule, and that you have a lot of them!!

Are you judging yourself for overreacting or is he saying you're overreacting...or are you DJing yourself and him by putting those words in his mouth? I wasn't clear from your post.

You aren't battling for your marriage anymore, RC. You have it. It is intact. Both betrayals...yours and his, have led you to this point of finding answers, changing how you live and what you live by. Make sure it becomes a clean slate.

You believe because he doesn't throw your financial mess in your face that he has forgiven you? Did he say that?

I rejoice that you're here and questioning. Praying my answers aren't too tough (and that they make sense)...have a favor to ask of you...

Please make paragraphs.

Pretty please? I'm old, wear bifocals and read line by line and refer back the same way. Give me a break by breaking up, ur, your paragraph, please. LOL

LA

LA words can't express how grateful I am for your last post as well as all of your post. The last one however has helped me understand my responsibility and his when often times I felt frustrated because my understanding of the issues were mingled and confused. Thank you so very much.

P.S. I don't feel it was too tough on me. Maybe a little. But I think a need some toughening (I don't think that is a word). Thanks

Hey, I like "toughening." Let's make it a word.

Thank you for replying and you're more than welcome. So not alone. I felt a huge relief to figure out that my frustration and confusion were because of me, not him. And that I was causing it in myself gave me the way not to...hope it helps for you. Takes a lot of practice.

One of the subtle ways my H began to make love deposits in my bank was with allowing me my snooping. During his A, it was behind his back. I was really nervous after NC was established and he'd recommitted to pick up his cell and page through it, looking, in front of him. At first he asked, "Why do you do that?" and I said "It makes me feel better." He didn't ask again. He would quickly stay present while I did my thing. There's something in his doing that, no resistance, vexation, argument that felt like love to me, long before he would say he loved me.

Hope this is the same for you. It also was great at showing he had his part, but I have mine. He's not making me snoop...his part was already done. His new part was being there and he was. And he still is!! It is awesome to put respect back into our union. In time, day by day, month by month...your need reduces and when the cell phone bill comes, I reach for it with the same trigger as before. I open it, look at the amount, and pay it. No more line by line. Sporadic sometimes, but not with the urgency of before.

No more trash checking. I forgot entirely about this unil I emptied the one last week in the room that used to be his bedroom. I triggered right back and happily dumped it without an ounce of desire to search it. I told myself, "Good job, LA. I think we're healing nicely!"

Did I forget to mention the self-congratulations you need to do for yourself? I found them helpful in the stage you're in, and have kept them up in other areas. Whenever I wanted to LB during a conversation and didn't, it helped me to whisper in my head...good choice. Way to go. You're doing great. I talk to myself like there is more than one of me.

Don't run, RC...LOL

I have many selves from all the years alive...and one that hasn't arrived...my own higher self...and that's her voice, the same one I use on my older selves, who congratulates, guides and keeps me aware that each day, I move another bit closer to being her.

Okay, you can run from me now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((RC))))

Lemme know when you're ready for another bite from the smorgasboard I offered.

LA

Ok La. I'm not running just yet. I'm trying to hang in there. Gosh, I so appreciate the things that you mentioned in the last post about your own frustration and it being caused by you. I've often thought that I was doing this also. But felt my H was contributing because it (my frustration) was usually sparked by something that he had done. I guess what makes the defining point is understanding my thoughts and feelings that are provoked in reaction to him. Another poster noted that I needed to stop making my decisions in reaction to him. This is really hard to do. I think there is a lot in me that wants to control him. I want to make him make me happy. I know that probably sounds very selfish. I'm sure it is. But I'm acknowledging it so that maybe I can get to the heart of eats at me at times. Well, I feel I'm getting stronger while I deal with this situation but boy is it stressful. I appreciate your hearing me out. Thanks again.

P.S. I hope to be able to bite another chunk of self discovery very soon.

I see a new depth being reached in your self-honesty, RC...

"I think there is a lot in me that wants to control him."

Tell me emotions come when you believe you can control him. How does it feed you?

"I want to make him make me happy." Is that because you believe you cannot make yourself happy...someone else has to do that?

You've realized how you react and don't act. You don't choose your words and actions, but they come, automatically. This is a very uncontrollable choice, don't you think? No safety in that, because it all depends on how others act towards you.

The automatic responses come from long before your H. Does that help? They go back, and back. Do a lot of pondering on your early life, which is where we formed our first beliefs...somebody hits you, you get to hit back...somebody hurts you and you get to hurt back until they stop...somebody is nice to you, they like you...

Write down as many of these kinds of beliefs (yours, not mind) that you have. You're in very self honest mode, so do it soon. Do not fear feeling silly or childish...you're looking at beliefs you had as a child--totally appropriate.

I think if you can really dig out these beliefs you can write yourself a code to live by--so you can choose your actions and words and not be reactive.

LA

Gosh, I wrote a whole reply. My computer went bloop and it was all gone. Now I'm going to try to remember what I wrote.

I was looking at your questions. I'm going to take a stab at answring them.

How does it feed me being able to control my H? I feel that when I can control my H that he does things that I want him to and he tries to make me happy. Of, course we all want that. However there are times when as humans we won't please our mates.

This is where I have a problem with him. I guess the payoff for my wanting him to please me is so that I can feel secure and safe with him. When he doesn't act as I would like I don't feel this way.

I realize that my insistence that he make me happy predates our R. I've always acted like a little brat insistent that others had to like me and that I had to be popular and so on.

Is this because I can't make myself happy? Well I don't know. I do feel that I make myself happy. However I get into trouble when I feel that others have to validate me or do things in a way that makes me feel valued. And also when I obsess over things causing myself to be unhappy.

Validation and rejection are a big problem for me. I have problems making friends and having fulfilling R with people. So it is like that is something I've felt I couldn't have. As a result I've always tried to run after it.

I think I recognize this as a reason for why I've stayed with my H. To be very honest, my H has never really made me happy. He often times made me much more unhappy than happy. However I think I feared getting out there and dating other people at the time so I dated him. I had just come out of a bad R and was mixed up on the inside. Rather than face my own issues I dated him.

From the time he saw me he would try to date me and I really didn't like him much. I hated the way he came onto me. After a period of feeling lonely I went with it. Later in our R I decided I didn't want to date him. It wasn't that he was abusive but just terribly inconsiderate.

As a part of his neediness he explained to me that he did things for me in the hopes that I would make him happy by doing those same things for him (how selfish). However I've come to understand him better being that he came from a broken home and feels a deep desire to always get others to make him happy.

Anyway I decided that I wanted to leave our R. At that time I found out that I was expecting so I stayed in the R.

At that time the payoff was trying to make my life predictable and centered around family values. Honestly I didn't want another man raising my son. I wanted things to be as I was raised (with my mom and dad together). The fear of us having seperate houses to raise my son, along with my not wanting to get out there and date again led me to stay in the R when I really should've moved on.

Fear has led to my decisions about so many things. And also a need to be taken care of, which has caused me to feel very needy and dependent of him as well as others. I haven't done too good with making R with others either.

I realize that a lot of my ways of thinking is out of date and needs updating. I'm going to do the exercise you mentioned above about automatic responses and my beliefs. I believe I must change the way I think to get ahead of where I am now. Much of this has been automatic ways of thinking. Always thinking in the safe mode or sterring clear of challenge. I'm going to do the exercise that you mentioned above and I hope to come up with a bteer code than I've been lving by so far.

P.S. Today was a tough day. Saw OW at WS's work today. Prior to this incident I expressed a concern to him and he blew me off. This was the first time it happened and I felt humiliated. It felt to me like evreyone knows about it and is having a big laugh at my expense.

LA, I know we have been talking about inner isses that need fixing but what can I do about better establishing my boundaries with him. I'm re-reading your post earlier also.

I went back and read your post about my looking into WS's things. You asked did WS tell me he forgave the financial mess I made.

Well he just hadn't brought it up repeatedly. I have perhaps assumed that he forgave me. Do you think I should find out if he has forgiven me?

Also you were asking about if I was judging myself as saying that I am overreacting or if I am makng a DJ of WS that he thinks that I was overreacting when I asked him to allow me to look into his things.

Well I feel that he acts this way by this tone of voice when I approach him. Also, if he feels that I'm paranoid then he probably thinks I'm overreacting.

Also, please excuse me that I wans't making paragraphs. I will make them from now on.

My condolences on the lost reply...happens to me and I just sit and stare at the monitor, like my brain got erased. Ugh!! Hate that. Nice redo, though.

"Of, course we all want that." Stop right there, Missy! Believe it or not, that is your belief, not mine nor several others. We do not want to control anyone. Why? Check out TxGal2...because then when we get the results we want, we know we "made" them do it. Gives half the security and safe feelings we wanted to begin with.

I in no way want to control my H. I know how awful and what a fantasy it was--don't want to go back there. What I found was that I could give myself safe and secure feelings, with a realistic eye to "stuff happens" and I will feel pain, but won't choose to suffer from it. I know without a doubt that I create my own happiness and share it with my H...he does not in anyway cause, control or cure me of my own feelings.

Please don't believe everyone believes as you do.

It is a really tough way to live, RC...you're choosing to live without real control, yet be dependent on someone else to give you what you deny yourself. Very imbalanced. Fragile. Dependent. Messy. Disrespectful.

Why do you have the right to demand someone else make you happy? Wouldn't that involve believing they can make you mad? Make you do things, feel things, believe things that you would not otherwise choose? Where's your choice? That's is a far scarier place to put yourself in reality than my way.

Because you've been living for external validation and acceptance, you believe the way you do. You can change that. It seems to anger you that your H has had the belief "As a part of his neediness he explained to me that he did things for me in the hopes that I would make him happy by doing those same things for him (how selfish)." He said he was selfish or you judged him for that? This is a very common belief...the Golden Rule with a tag on..."Treat others as you want to be treated, and you will be." Isn't real or true. For it was meant to be a guide to standards and boundaries, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" not that they have to, must or will. Would have...let go the response. Act to your code.

You do this exact, to the letter same thing. You treat him as you want him to treat you. You are needy...you do not supply yourself with acceptance, validation, or recognize your worth as a creation of God, seperate from your actions.

Neither does he. There are many reasons you are with your H. Many ways he feeds you by his presence and vice versa.

I have no doubt you both treat each other disrespectfully and don't know it. You are both dependent on the other to mirror each other and you don't like what the other shows you...can't do both--make him a mirror for you and then pick what he reflects. Nor can he do so with you. Creates conflict due to the imbalance in the belief system.

We outgrow the need for mirrors...our parents did that for us when we were really young, help us to define ourselves. We do not do this as adults because then we are parenting our partner...whoa...big trouble there. I can vouch for that. Big time.

Think carefully on this: "Validation and rejection are a big problem for me." No matter who you partner with, you will recreate these problems and feelings for yourself. So you staying with your H wasn't just because of your co-dependency. I believe you already know within yourself much of what I'm telling you and that replacing him wasn't a solution. Changing you is your ultimate answer.

Boundaries...you saw OW at WS's work. That's really painful. You worried ahead of time about him going back and her being there. Now, get your perspective straight. He didn't blow you off...you felt blown off...were you expecting him to do something he didn't? Say something he didn't? Or to make sure OW didn't come to his work? Find out first your expectation. You have to before you can make the boundary. Reasonable expectations. Reasonable boundaries.

Making your boundaries must balance with your standards...can't be seperate. Enforcing them is a progressive thing...first crossing choice, second, third...etc. And they vary.

"If you hit me, I will call the police and submit to the legal consequences of your actions."

"If you have contact with OW, you must tell me of it immediately--if I find out later that you did not, we will have to seperate. I feel pain from betrayal all over again when you have contact. I feel embarrassed and threatened. I feel unsafe and vulnerable."

Practicing "I feel" and "I believe" statements are the most important part of honoring your code and enforcing your boundaries, I believe. Listening and repeating is the first way (best way for me) I began to stop strangling validation and acceptance from my H's throat and began living respectfully. I placed the above boundary about contact and told him those words.

My H transferred to another store to end contact.

You did great with two I statements in your next to last paragraph...by stating them that way, to you hear where these feelings are within your control, not your H's?

Your WH did something he can't undo. It is what he is actively doing now that matters. You have your part and he has his--taking care of yourself, understanding that mindreading and assumptions can kill your love for him, same with the resentments you create daily, is within your power, not his. What is his is no contact, transparency and a willlingness to get help...MC or IC. His choice.

You have yours.

See how the inner issues are tied to the actions you want so desperately to take to end the pain and protect yourself right now? You've been short-cutting in your life and now have to stop and take the long way. You're gonna feel mighty conflict in yourself because your habit was to act--stick your finger in the dike, plug one hole and call it fixed, as another and another hole would begin to pressure through. Time to rebuild the wall to withstand the pressure, acknowledge the weakness and the power you have and the power you don't have.

The only way I know how to do it.

LA

La, I feel so bad in reading your last post.

To clarify I was saying that we all want our mates to make us happy. I would think we all do. Maybe this is a part of my neediness you spoke of. And to be honest if your partner isn't aware of how to make you happy then to me they should be well willing to be trained, not controlled It should be something that they want to do, voluntary. Ok, I guess this is a DJ.

How is it that I am so needy? I want my H to do the things a faithful, loving, caring, admirable and admiring H would do. I don't thik that is so needy.

I realize that I have problems with validation from others. In this way yes, I agree I am needy. That doesn't mean that my H isn't suppose to do some things that make him worth being with in the first place (which he never did and I should've left him from the get go), but I don't understand how you mean that my need for validation applies to him.

I simply want him to do what he ought to. No more no less. I'm obviosuly misunderstanding. Please explain when convenient.