See how you nail stuff? Give yourself credit for this:

"I guess I felt that maybe you felt I wasn't committed enough. To some degree I've felt this about myself, with the wishy washiness." See, you projected. You caught that. I wasn't doin' nothin', Ma'am.

And you owned it.

You're just beautiful, darlin'.

"How come you pondered my other post?"

'Cuz I can.

So you delete posts from fear, is that correct?

What would happen in your life if an extended family member or friend read anything you posted?

Would it be similar to what might happen to me--all my thoughts, feelings, beliefs and history bled out on the board? Why aren't I deleting mine?

Onto WH...he says it will be a hassle. Did he say preparing for it is the hassle?

And you...what does going represent to you?

When he approached you and you thought, "What was that about?" did you ask him outloud? Look in his eyes and say, "I am so confused. Please talk to me and tell me what you desire and why. I have recently discovered I am not good with nonverbal communication. I can learn, but I want to be respectful."

What have you decided as a boundary enforcement when your WH makes decisions without you involved?

"I simply can not stand the amount of inconsiderate ways my WS acts toward me." You are judging them inconsiderate. Are you saying that if he didn't want to go to the function due to extreme fear and shame, that would be inconsiderate? Or would his not telling you what he feels be inconsiderate? I know you understand you are judging him, correct?

"I think he is a selfish hermit." This DJ hurts you. In our beliefs, if we choose to believe that when another person doesn't tell us what is on their minds that they are a selfish hermit, then each time we do not freely speak our mind, stay honest and open, then we are telling ourselves we are a selfish hermit. You won't know it...comes quietly, sneaks up and slaps the back of your head by giving you a pain in your heart when you do it.

"Ok, I'm making myself angry." This is a solid statement about you. How do you believe you're doing this?

"makes me feel valued when my WS is doing things that show that he cares, considers me, understands me." Now we're back to love languages and your controlling what you want, how you want it and when you want it. There are two parts to being loved...the part of the lover and the part of beloved. You can be loved with every molecule in the man, and he could be demonstrating it like crazy, but if you can't feel and know the love (which, given his A's, is difficult), believe that love, then you won't feel cared for.

You know this. I'm reminding you. I'm here for you and your part. I can't cause, control, cure or CHANGE your WH.

I know I felt the way you do now BEFORE my H's A. Before mine. My H doesn't show his love that much differently than before. What changed, then?

"Needless, to say I was happy to deny his request and will continue to until he turns from a toad to a wonderful prince, lol. Ok, La, I'm messing with God's creation. Well at least I get to indulge in a little folly right here. I can't LB, not that I want to."

But you did LB, RC. You really did.

You're still funny and cute...but you made the choice to abuse. Your anger gives you permission inside yourself to do that to another person. You know what I'm going to say next, right? Which gives you permission to do that to you, too.

"I want things to change." I need your ripe, full honesty here, RC. You want things to change or your WH to change? Or you to change?

"I can't control him. Fine. I would hope I didn't have to." By adding the hope I didn't have to, you are negating your belief that it is possible to be human and control others. Which is it really, RC? When you're level-headed and clear, it is one way...when you are anger, hurt, rejected, resentful, this belief becomes the other way?

"That things would click so that he comes forward with certain behaviors that make me feel cared for." Okay, RC...let's try this another way.

List explicitly, in every situation, exactly how, when and what shows you that you are cared for that you would like your WH to do. Don't leave out any details, step by step, so that he will know, be able to memorize and execute the steps that make you feel loved.

And you know, he has to do the same for you to make him loved, right? All the steps, times of day, exact words, gestures, responses, posture, etc. so that he can feel loved. That might include a tigerskin bikini in winter, worn while sitting next to him during a baseball game and knitting a sweater, with a bright smile on your face and your leg over his knee.

Now, if you are just desperately desiring his honesty and openness, his reasons, his beliefs...that's another matter. You still can't control that. You can ask for it, and I believe you have. You can make yourself absolutely safe for him to be O&H. You can lead by example, being O&H for you, for your code. You can show how you enforce your boundaries and be a good friend of conversation and show him you will respect his boundaries in conversation, also.

RC, your anger is not safe. Your deep need to control is not safe. Your judgments and permissions are not safe. You want what you want, when you want it, without doing your part.

No bashing...just how I see it. The "I feel" and "I believe" statements I've asked of you take a brave soul. No brave souls come in angry packaging...scared, yes; longing, yes...but not angry and judgmental.

You are controlling him with SF. He may be craving SF because like you, he feels rejected, controlled and greatly desires sweet, physical acceptance. And you reject him and expect him to learn from that. You'll show him. Right out of the marriage.

Please do not give yourself permission to manipulate. That is what controlling decisions are. I know you know this.

Go to your resentments timeline and find out how much you need and desire to resent. What feelings it gives you and if they last. Creating resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. You corrode from the inside out, RC. You're too beautiful, questing, curious and dedicated to keep swallowing that poison.

Next are absolutes...if I say you rejecting SF to punish your WH is a DJ, and you say, "Well! What? Just give him what he wants all the time?" That would be jumping to the opposite pov...a sign you're feeling that wounded inner child and acting from that perspective.

With the images and pain, I had to stop during SF and make "I" statements...yeah, you laugh...should have been me. My chest full of pain, not being able to get air into my lungs, tears coming down my face, "I am triggering on blank. I feel pain. Lotsa pain. I just do." My H would recoil into guilt and shame, hold me, ask me if I wanted to stop..."No, I want it to have never happened." Yeah, my truth, not mature or full of wisdom. I cry remembering. I did this two or three times...scared witless and doing it anyway.

He began to ask before, "How are you doing? I desire you. Is that okay?" "I love you. I'll stop anytime you need me to." Later: "I want you to tell me when you trigger."

Wow. That was big...and of course, I quit triggering. Took a year from d-day to stop triggering during SF, but I did. That was nine months after finding out it was a PA from the beginning. :::: You can do this, RC. Not if you fight it, thrust it back at him, and beat yourself down with it.

Time. Routine. Practice. Effort. Awareness.

Make it into an acronym for yourself, using those five words.

Make it yours.

Go back a few posts to find out why SF makes you feel like a weakling...when first you feel accepted and desired. You're doing that to yourself. He isn't. He's just the one you're punishing for it. Guess you're punishing yourself, too.

Afterall, RC...let's get real, shall we? How could you let this happen again? Really! You've been through it before...if you just controlled harder, longer, knew more, did more...well, you wouldn't have let yourself be duped again, right?

Darling, most precious RC...is that what you hear in your head? Whose voice is it? Who required you to be superhuman to be supersafe? Who showed you that you had to control others because they are too stupid and will hurt you in their stupidity?

That is who you are angry at. They made you a promise...do this, stay on guard, in control, super responsibile (only you can make the world perfect) and you will feel safe, loved, at all times in all ways. They made a hollow promise. It isn't God's promise...you know that...and there is no safety unless you believe God will bring you through what he brings you to...and in yourself...you survived before and learned some lessons...you're surviving now and learning a lot MORE lessons...with a really mean teacher, too...God, what is with this LA person? Really. She's mean.

And she cares for you RC. Pride before a fall...how 'bout a specially made verse..."Control goeth before a fall" because God says, "Hands off my creations!"

You just quoted the verse that I fear more than any other. I bet I've hurt God one thousand times when he wanted to celebrate and I shoved him away...no...no pride...ever. Not allowed. I have to be ugly, stupid, immoral, untalented, and never accidentally do anything too well to feel pride. I could fall.

LA

I was posting so long, they had to run me off at work. I have one last thing, RC. (Yeah, and some swampland in Montana to sell you, right?)

"I haven't discussed with him my fears because I think he could care less."

Hey, this isn't the honest RC I know! Why are you lying to yourself now? What have you got to lose?

You have chosen not to be O&H about your fears with your WH. I believe that, not because you're DJing your WH. He can't be blamed for everything, RC. Then you have no power at all. And I know you are powerful...because you are human.

"He is very unemotional so maybe he feels it is for me to handle my fears."

Okay, so which is it...he doesn't care about your fears or he trusts you to handle them?

"Well accept for with OW. With both OW, he told them how he felt and this garbage. He told them this and that. With me it is quite different."

Boatload of resentment here and very little truth, IMO. I can relate! Been there, boiled with that perspective!!!

Wait...when you were dating, he told you how he felt, shared himself...and yes, early in your marriage, too. Does that make you an OW? No. It makes you an intricate part of his life, full of conflict, passion, love, resentment, frustration and fears you...your very presence, your history, because you are not a clean, safe slate. You are RC. You know his bad parts, awful parts, secret thoughts...and he resents you for it. His choice. His perception. Not your truth.

You're choosing the belief that stabs, creates resentment and leads to the choice to hate. You are doing this, RC...not him. Your choice. Your power. You are worth not stabbing, judging, annihilating. You just are, girl.

I bet if I told you that by choosing this painful belief, that I, LA, felt stabbed also, through and through, that you'd consider changing it. Well, heck! I do. Change it because you're worth it. As much as me. Do it for you.

You are significant, important and valued. You JUST are. Now, treat yourself like that...and that means do not give yourself permission to stab!!

LA

Post deleted by reallyconcerned

Calling you on the carpet...oh, what a trigger...now I feel motherly and shudder. I respect you more than that. Also, my quote used to be a Woody Allen saying, "My parents values were God and carpeting."

My preference is to be seen as gently turning you back towards yourself, reassuring you are normal, human, and hugging you in the process.

Yeah, my 2x4's may be in use, but my intent (hope, prayer, goal) is the other way.

You're quite something, RC, to get it. And get it again. Know that. That's all you. You could have chosen to come back at me, turn that anger (anywhere but at you) on me and say take a hike, you're full of it. You didn't choose to do that. Know that.

I remember turning my anger anywhere else...because I was full up on it, no room in the inn...too much at me all the time. I get that. I really do. My coaxing (bashing) is my attempt to come between you and your anger...give you a break from its boiling presence. If you want to turn it on me, I'll understand. Won't hurt me as much as you are hurting you.

Personally, I liked this sentence very much, "Why do I suffer myself so much?" Those kind of slips show our truths better than the correct statements.

Why DO you suffer yourself so much? If you are secretly viewing yourself as a bad, horrible monster, then you wouldn't want to suffer you at all, would you?

Two DJs...one to yourself and one to WH in your last post.

My point is to highlight to you what you are saying/believing, not judging.

DJ to WH...he doesn't even know I'm mad. How do you know? We know other people's truths and tell ourselves we don't. I choose to believe your pain and anger are so palpable to him that he believes he has no choice but to shut it out. To see it, know it fully, would be death. That powerful. That much a presence.

DJ to self...I'm mad at him and yes it was starting to turn into hate. The DJ comes in because you are looking at your choice as an "it"...like your choice was not yours, but had a mind of "its" own. It doesn't. You do. You are safe from true hate because it is a choice.

I trust you, RC. I trust you and your elemental dedication...not to be perfect, but to be real and aware.

I believe in you.

LA

I just wanted to interject that your comments about Pride hit home with me. Pride is a huge huge enemy of mine, in my personal relationships. I know that only when I am humble and serving others, am I doing God's will.

That's been a huge realization for me. I think that realization helped me keep from ending our M after my FWW's A. And now, a few months later, the M seems to be mending. I hope I can keep my pride in check.

God bless you marriage RC.

Post deleted by reallyconcerned

Post deleted by LLG

Good morning, RC...

I shared with you my reaction to the carpet thing...I shared my own filters...from my experience. Owning my own stuff and telling you about it.

I see where you got to your acceptance of it...almost. "how I come off in it." I want you to really see the sharing, without any indication of "don't say that" or "you made me trigger to something." I just did. And I told you about it. You didn't cause it. You shared your perspective...which is legitimate and honest as well...a friend holding you accountable for your actions.

I'm highlighting this to show how much of what others say you own...consider if it is yours before you touch it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How come when you bump, RC, there are numbers in it sometimes?

How are you this morning? I'm yawning, blinking...it is gloomy out there and cold. I'm thinking how much you want your WH to change, you to change...like me, looking for Spring and wanting it to already be here.

I get that. You know I am so controlling I even try to force the weather? Sure. No problem. Last Sunday night, inspite of dire snow predictions, I dressed up in my light aqua pant suit, complete with sandals, to go to a restaurant with family. Just 'cuz I have choices. Of course, I did wear my parka, too.

Felt good to say...I know I cannot control the weather...but I can display my longing and live with any embarrassment. And I did. Now I giggle. I'm goofy, out of place; a banner for wishful thinking. And I don't mind that.

Just sharing, RC.

LA

Post deleted by LLG

Let's lift your burden of judgment. What do you think? It's really heavy, caves you in, distorts your view and gets in your way of living lightly, firmly.

Comparison is a component of judgment. Difficult for humans to release one part of judgment and keep the regular part in place. What you compare matters. Fruits, vegetables--think of comparison as what you allow yourself to do when you buy. This works with what beliefs you buy into, also.

I think you're really getting that you are not the cause, control or cure for anyone else, including your WH. If you really eliminate DJs from your mind, then you'll know that comparing how much another caused pain versus how much you do, and the like, is a judgment and not yours to make.

Theory of relativity my style...what sears your heart may only bump another's. Different life experiences, beliefs and perspectives. For you to say someone else is not hurting as much as you are (or happy, or grateful, etc.) would be comparing nothing to something...doesn't work, does it? Theirs is their own. Yours is yours. You aren't using them to feel better about yourself...you stand on your own.

I was very much like this...who I befriended, who I chose to love...all were judged and weren't accepted unless I felt better about my life in comparison to theirs. Did I do this with conscious intent? Oh, no. I felt we connected, could relate...felt comfortable, not intimidated, was of worth. Not equal, though.

You are my equal RC...no comparison, just fact. Nothing you do will change that...God made you and he made me.

I have dropped into devastation, anger, vengefulness, just like you did. It was for a moment or a day...then you rebound. Those feelings are there, but I do not act from them. I acknowledge them and use them as the information they are...devastation is what you feel when you look outside yourself for what you need within and don't find it...and vengeful is the child in ours wanting life to be fair, for others to feel our pain as much as we do, and is pure judgment biting our own tushies.

Think about anger as a secondary emotion...fear or pain as the primary. What are you really feeling first when you feel anger?

If you know the first, you'll understand the second better--anger from the expectation to not be treated that way; anger from wishful thinking (same thing within expectations, but older) that you can protect yourself from being treated this way, so it won't happen at all; and anger from believing that others are not allowed to treat you this way. Maybe anger at yourself for fearing or being in pain, feeling rejected...anger that you LET someone cross your boundary or fail your expectation...see how many strands to unravel?

How about two journals, RC? One for daily "it happened" stuff...you write out the bland account of who said/did what, what you said/did, historical observation.

Second journal would be your Anger journal...where you write out all you feel, no holds barred, pour it all over what emotions you got in response to what happened.

I don't expect nor demand you remain calm. Calm comes as a result of your beliefs aligning with reality. Accepting others' truth is easier than buying into what they believe because they believe it. Respect they believe it themselves, and that's enough. There's no trying, RC...to try is to lie.

State. State your thoughts and feelings not to get a certain response but to hold to your code of O&H, to share yourself. Do it while rummaging in the fridge...dusting...playing gin rummy with your WH. Simple statements, brave simple statements.

You can ramble all over and back and still say a heckuva lot, RC. Do you make sense to you? That's who matters.

From years of manipulating others (in your beliefs), you have been an unconscious victim of self-manipulation. In public, no less! (Just kidding.) Think carefully about this:

"I guess I tend to let him off the hook more when I'm able to look at my own mistakes and just understand,and accept human frailty rather than demand that it not be so."

See how you manipulate your feelings, use self-soothing tools to change how you feel, rather than what you believe? These are coping skills...temporary and short-sighted. Living skills change your belief, then feel the change in feelings, which is much slower, takes more time, and lasts much longer than coping skills.

When you change your belief that is permissible to you to manipulate others and yourself, then you will stop, start, stop, stop, start, stop, stop, stop...etc. You're already doing this rebounding from your dip in the feelings-control-my-life-pond. The less you dip, the more you teach yourself that you don't want to dip, you want to explore without drenching yourself.

Takes time, like replacing a habit with a new one...lots of practice, self-training, which builds self-trust.

You're getting there. When you stop measuring others, you have to stop measuring yourself. Know your right now is better than any other time in your life. If you don't believe it, then you won't feel it.

LA

I forgot to tell you about the book...

Boundaries by Townsend.

I'm getting it from the library, and if not, I'm buying it tonight. We can read it together.

LA

Post deleted by reallyconcerned

Post deleted by reallyconcerned

I think the first one, Boundaries. Heck, both. I'm so tired...do I have to go out and get it tonight? I wanna nap.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Oh no. Get some rest, LA. I have to order it myself.

Post deleted by reallyconcerned

Good morning, RC...

Time to play you tell me...

Are you judging your WH's mood, talking/not talking, mistakes and personality? Are you believing he couldn't care less? Are you comparing yourself to him...what you wouldn't do versus what he's doing?

Ownership...you 'fessed up to something you were ashamed of doing in your past. You said you did it...though you threw in extenuating circumstances a bit...I know that's difficult to do. Very difficult. You did that. You also chose not to do that again. Nor will you.

Judging at all...when you commpare, measure, try to pin an amount to an intangible...you are kind of self-deceiving, aren't you? Like asking, how much do you love? We can spend a lot of time ferreting out ways to measure love...instead of spending that time on actively loving.

Was the good news that OW wasn't attending the function? Or did I miss something else? I'm sleepy. I need to nap ALL day. Heehee.

I'm at work...no nap. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

"Are you saying that here my looking at what he has done and what I have done is something I shouldn't do?"

You tell me...if you soothe yourself through judgment, is that a safe, reliable way to feel better? Or is a better way to change the belief you have which is giving you the painful information? The anxiety, frustration?

You tell me...are your thoughts and beliefs...even feelings, bad things? Or as you consider and explore, are you doing a good thing? Why the bad/good at all?

What your WH has done has been harmful, destructive to the marriage...why continue you that out to bad/wrong. It is what it is. As humans, we have a difficult time once we judge something to see it differently...and to have judgment spill like paint, intended for an action, runs over, further, and then becomes what we believe of the person. Don't stain your life, RC. Human's make mistakes, but they aren't one.

Does forgiveness mean approval to you? Or does it mean you know the action seperate from the person? Including yourself?

How are the "I" statements going for you? Have you decided to volunteer your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...share what you're rumbling about in your head and your heart...do not judge whether he cares...choose to believe it is because YOU do that you open yourself.

So yeah...I'm asking you to put your hook away...not just let him off of it. And if you decide that isn't what you want, I'll respect that.

LA

Post deleted by reallyconcerned

Post deleted by reallyconcerned

Hey, your hug and my leftover homemade macaroni and cheese are marvelous comfort foods. Thank you!

You have the hook. Yes, you do. We all do. The choice not to USE the hook, against others and ourselves is the change you want to make. You have a permission inside of you...Make Me Angry Enough and I Get To Use The Hook!

So, change your believe...no one can MAKE you angry...your anger is a signal to understand. You FEEL anger. Usually right after you feel fear or pain.

So, know you have the hook, what it is, how you use it, but remove the belief that gives you permission to use it.

I urge this on you because you have a lot of permissions you give yourself based on what your WH says/does, and you want to POJA this weekend about no contact, reconciliation, recommitment, etc, so the hook has to go.

Facts first...Your WH promised to have no contact outside of work with OW, and limited contact at work...same as my WH. Well, that doesn't stick, as we know. Also, just visual contact continues the A, I believe. So what are you asking for, really?

Your WH may be transferred out sooner than the OW in May...or not. He is not in many other WH's shoes in that he can't just change jobs, but has to be transferred, reassigned, etc.

Will the no contact letter ease something in you? What does it represent to you? Protection? Recommitment?

My WH wouldn't do a NC letter until he decided to recommit to the marriage...and then he wouldn't do one because he had already recommitted to the marriage.

I lived with that. What enabled me to live with that is that shortly after recommitment, he no longer worked with OW (yippee!) and has not had a single contact since...over a year. I checked his cell repeatedly, in front of him, casually as we were talking, or cooking or driving together. When I found nothing (and snooped the bills to confirm he hadn't been deleting them), I thank him, each time, for his patience and owned my fear, not his actions. That reinforced he wasn't doing it to me by having had an A...I was doing it to me from my fear of contact and deceit.

We got through that part.

As for recommitment...ask your WH if he would attend counseling with the goal of learning more in order to make a choice...either he chooses you/marriage, or OW/divorce. My DH said last night that it was his openness not to being told he was wrong, but the empowerment to make his goal to figure out what he wanted and then make the decision. Took him 2 1/2 months...quick for him, really long for me. :::: My own issues tripped me up, ambushed and tackled me, time and time again. Like going to prison and making it "hard" time on myself. Like I'd know.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, get straight what your expectations, desires, hopes, wants and needs are...they are all different...sort them out. Know them. Poke and prod them for the payoff they give you...know that payoff. See if they are unreasonable or reasonable, or somewhere in between. Bring them here. List them after you've tickled them and heard them squeal...

before you talk to WH.

And we're gonna make "choice" be in every sentence you speak for awhile, 'k? If you're willing to do this like an exercise, begin here...

"I want to talk to WS over the weekend about the matter. NC letter and everything. Could you assist me with prepping my talk with him? Trying to avoid LBing, demanding, angry outburst and so on."

I'm choosing to talk to WS over the weekend about the matter. NC letter and everything. Could you assist me with prepping my talk with him? I am choosing to not LB, demand, AO, etc."

Choice. It's a beautiful thing. Avoid, dodge, bury, overlook...they are choices; certainly don't sound like powerful ones, huh?

Making "big" relationship talks bigger with expectations and plans concerns me. Maybe in this talk, you both could POJA to have R talks once a week, 20 minutes a night, on a certain night. The rest of the time, off limits. That way, can't be "big" heavy, threatening, massively important, and build too high of expectations for relief, consolation, rectifying, reducing, and fixing, right?

BS's feel like an implosion is happening inside of them when they are craving to be out of pain...and they take limiting relationship talks as a sign the WS is just getting away with more by not having to face anything more than 20 minutes.

A lot of your pain is coming from your expectations...if we could just talk more, if he would own more, commit more, study more...well, those bite you by the same hook...he can do everything and you will still feel pain. Well, you just want him to do a little of each, right? Only you tell yourself you need him to do a little of each, so each time he doesn't, you hurt more.

You're human...you want the answer to the future right now. You want to be out of pain, fear, anger and betrayal right now. Yet you know this is a slow process, full of stuff you have to do...so you realize you are in pain and it isn't going away right now. Nor your fear or anger...you can cleanse yourself of resentment and not make new ones, but if you love the payoff you get from resenting him, well, I don't see you letting go too soon. You like what you made in yourself too much, right? Comparing, judging, measuring...feels good in you somewhere. When you're in pain, that feels good in you somewhere feels even sweeter, I think.

LA