Thank you for posting again, LLG...

I wasn't impatient with you...I can see that as a reasonable belief, though. That was a really tough post to write...I just told my DH about it...that I struggled and waited to submit it...prayed and checked my spots inside...

to find that impatience...

and what I found was my most sincere love for you...honestly...and my self-doubt in hitting submit coming from me lacking...not being enough...not really communicating well enough.

Not impatience. Deep concern.

I did not judge your behavior as irresponsible or inconsiderate...if you're speaking of removing your posts...I saw raw fear, pain, anger...and I struggled with not feeling responsible, the cause, control of it. This is good, to struggle, I think. I came back around to the same place when I hit submit. Same place.

That's unusual for me, the old me...I wore self-doubt like a second skin...certainty just wasn't there...though I craved it.

I remain, by choice, in your corner. I respect your choices...I believe in you...that doesn't stop. Not by your actions.

Good to know you're here, even when I can't see you...

Hmmm...now who does that remind me of...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((LLG)))))

LA

Thanks for being in my corner...for believing in me. I appreciate your caring enough about me to say the things that you did, even though I still feel it was out of place to say the part about dving my H. Aside from that, thanks for the things you've shared with me and your thoughts about the my sitch that have helped me in many ways.

I hear you felt what I said about divorcing your H was not what I should have said. Is that what you meant about out of place?

Or unexpected? Is that where you felt attacked and insulted?

Not supportive? Not allowed?

What others say to you is about them. I'm no exception.

What you choose to believe is about you. Would you consider that you are equal and choose not to believe what I believe is okay?

Or does fear make that an impossibility...if others are right, then you're wrong?

I believe in you enough to ask this...

Why did you feel attacked and insulted by what I believe?

LA

Maybe I feel threatened by someone else making a comment adverse to my thoughts. So let's see, I guess that the word threat sums up to fear.

LA, it takes much analyzing to figure all this out. My brain is fried today, my thoughts liquidy-like.

Oh, I love that...liquidy-like!

I'm stealing that some day.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Are you still liquid?

I think you're a gas.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe a solid LLG day?

You use words well...made me think of how we change without changing our core stuff...like water...still H2O, right? Acts very differently, though.

LA

Thanks. How are you? I'm good. What are you talking about here, in previous post I mean? I'm doing good. Have been doing a great bit of introspection. Have been focusing much better. I see, you've been very busy. Highly sought after on this board.

I was rambling on about states of matter...comparing it to states of being...a liquidly-like day; a solid day; being a gas.

It was a joke.

It wasn't funny.

You do use words well...interestingly. You have a writer's voice.

I don't know about sought-after at all...I wrestle my own expectations and disappointments. Pray harder. Get myself out of the way when I post...some days, really good; others, crash and burn.

Life remains good for me, lessons every day.

Good to see you.

LA

Ok. Sorry I missed the joke, lol. Glad you are doing well...lessons everyday. Same here. Constantly learning, reenforcing....I'm grateful for it. Good to see you also.

It was a sorry joke to miss.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Thinking of you...let me know if you're around some time, will you?

You're missed.

LA

Hi. I know I haven't posted to you and so long and I left on soemwhat no so good terms. Please forgive me. I've been struggling with soem of the thigns you've told me. More like deabting if they were for me. I have something I'm dealing with and wonder if you would give me some help with this.

I've been talking to my H about taking steps that will help me feel more secure about the OW who, BTW is still at the job and he failed to tell me this.(She wa suppose to be one by May, then June and now July)

I'm just wondering. It doesn't seem that he is going to comply with my putting any type of conditions on him. SO I'm wondering can a M make it if one party is unwilling to do anything that the other has mentioned. I'm beginning to think we aren't a match. Maybe a man that is more like me would understand what I'm asking for, realize his error and be willing to meet me at least half way on this.

So maybe MB principles will simply not work out with me and him. Maybe I have to start over fresh. Can a M last if the other person isn't willing to work on security issues? Should a person not consider themselves as not being worth more than to settle for someone only wanting to give you less? I was fighting this at first. I mean the idea of my H and me being seperated or dved. But the more he tells me tings like, "you read too much, Oh I didn't mean what I told her this way and him pressing me for sex when I don't want it until this matter is worked out, the more I'm losing interest.

I didn't want my kids to be raised by four other people, two seperate marriages and families. But I'm growing tired now of my H seemingly being indifferent. Maybe I can just settle for him until me kids are grown. To be frank, I'm starting to wonder if the Harley's idealisms can be reached with my H. What do you think?

I don't believe there is anything to forgive...you felt what you felt...you did me no disservice or harm, LLG. I missed you.

Before I address your issue, can I ask...who can you go to above the CO who said he'd take care of it...because this isn't taking care of it...and I think exposing at a higher level...saying, "Here's the plan that was worked out. I felt heard and that my marriage was a priority. I now believe that is a lie."

Had this happened in my H's A...say, his transfer didn't come through...delayed, over and over again...for three months past the promise...I don't know if I could have borne it, LLG.

You've been experiencing a non-affair affair...contact, even visual, continues the affair...you haven't reached NC or withdrawal...this would have worn me to a pulp, I think...I was doing that for three months, waiting to get to recommitment, then NC...then withdrawal...with weekly counseling sessions, Plan Aing and the uncertainty was debilitating for me...I was up and down...inbetween...long bouts of hopeless, hopeful...numb.

You aren't wrong or abnormal. You are exceedingly stressed...inside and out.

My question, within only your control, is why would you expect anything of a WH in contact? Maybe he was like my WH...in contact through work...cutting off the emotional side...doing a withdrawal, mourning period, even as there was contact two days a week...yet no stated recommitment?

Is that where you are? Maybe by now, you expected to be further, given all your new knowledge, beliefs and changes inside?

I believe this time...you are experiencing additional betrayal...from the Army (yep, I forgot which branch of service...sorry)...and I would like to see you address this. Address their betrayal directly...and then see what your marriage looks like...

You have had the right to divorce from the first DDay...first A...and you chose not to...that isn't an offer, I believe, that expires...however, maybe it should? If you recommit to the marriage and he has another A...which he did...then it's a new right...and you can take your time deciding...want to make it expire two years past dday2? When my WH recommitted to the marriage, he only did so for two years...that will be up 12/15/06...and so did I...just two years...to work and see...

My DH was indifferent to me during his A...and it continued for two months after he broke it off because they worked together...and there were relapses of emotional contact...talks...and that continued his A...until finally, NC...would you consider that you are full of resentment because you didn't deserve any of this...twice? You're very angry at yourself...which is why you aren't seeing the stage you're in, only the one you want to be in...full recovery stage after withdrawal?

I'm guessing...I wasn't righteous...though at times, I justified I could be...because I had done so much, made so many harmful choices...and you haven't. You really haven't LLG. I don't know how to help you go on...when I can't fight that done-to feeling...and you have been done-to.

How does a BS do that? Bob Pure, Star, Orchid...is it having a goal to the bone...this is my family...I choose to love...I choose what I believe and what I do not...I will immerse myself in full reality at all times and not give into fantasy or wishfulness...I will persevere and not take it personally...

LLG...this is huge...only you can choose. What is right for you may not be right for me...you're human.

Address what you can...the service...their betrayal...

That's all I have for you...

LA

LLG,

If you are willing to expose as far as you need to go contact the base IG, if that doesn't work then go to the base CC, then to the IG of the Major Command that owns the base. If that doesn't work provide all of your documentation including names, phone numbers, and office symbols of all parties contacted to your senator and congressman. One way or the other it will stop then. Do no worry about the fallout, it's not your fault, it is the fault of the WS. I wish I would have hammered my WW like this before she retired.

I'm glad you don't feel that I did any disservice. I struggled, I felt a lot with you and I felt I caused a rift.


I am grateful for the CO that handled it before. He was helpful. However he has dropped the ball. The next step would be to taake it higher.

I have some reserve about this b/c I feel (OW H) might feel some betrayal. We've talked about the matter and previously
when I brought it to my H's CO he tried to discourage me from taking it higher.

He too, has concerns. But I think he feel he can't do anythinig form so far away. He tells me he tries not to worry because, "What can I do?"

THe thing is also it may only be 2 more weeks before she is gone so I'm thinking maybe I can wait it out.


LA, it has run me raggedy. A great deal is my worry about the matter. But this is something I recently talked ot him about.

Prior to this I thought OW had left. So I began to talk to WH about workign toward feeling more secure. I talked to him also about another woman that has come between us. I had an email from earlier thisyear where he tried to talk to her about a R.

He told me I misunderstood and was making more out it. i told him he told her romantic things that he hasn't even told me before. He said, he had (though he hadn't), whihc was beside the point. I felt insecure with her recently tryig to recontact him.

So we were in disagreement about this. He told me however that he would send an NC email to her, but then refused.

So we were already ahving some difficulty with this issue.


I agree. A problem that we've been having that goes in with the security issues pertains to him not being accoutnable for time. Going places and then going other places without making a simple call to let me know what is happening. I feel worn b/c I feel he isn't listening and what I say doesn't matter. He tells me I'm reading too much and making a mountain out of a molehill.

bump, post reply above.

Part 2

Well, I thought ow was gone. I went to WS's job this week and found she is still there.


I believe to some degree this is the case. However 2 weeks ago when I tried to address her leaving he blew up angrily at me as if I had right to ask. He later apologized but didn't volunteer any info and answer my question.

Also prior to this we had a little quarrel. We both LBed and said negative thigns. he told me he bet me that he could find someone else that could do better than me. This was concerning to me b/c he isn't verbally confrontational. Then when I found out this week OW was still at the job, I just wondered about it.

He has told me that I take things the worng way, as if he knows how the **** I take things. He tells me that he didn't mean things the way I took them when he told the person this or that. And it just seems he will not consider that some things make sense that I say and are reasonable. Because I feel we aren't working together then it just seems to me that we aren't moving forward. I feel he is just with me until next ride comes along.


are you saying done to therefore I must do to others? I'm having the hardest problems with my forgiving myself. I just can't seem to get past it and the feeligns of just not doing what is best for me.

I do plan to look into contacting CO again. I do think it is necessary.

I'm here, LLG...just got home...

When someone tells you what you're doing...it is in their eyes. When it is something you're thinking, feeling or believing...that's your truth. I believe (and I know that others here are very much against this label because it covers all, from a little to a lot, and I've decided to go with it because it changed MY life)...that's abusive.

To say you're making a mountain out of a molehill; that's a DJ. To say he perceives you making a big deal out of what isn't, in his eyes, is not.

Now, are you saying, "I cannot find any trust for you, H. I under this is my fear, full-blown, and I believe you could halve that, by choice. I see you as choosing not to...my fear creates anxiety, anger, pain, frustration, self-doubt in me. This blocks my feelings of love for you and from you."

If this is your truth...state it. When he doesn't call, tell him, "I didn't know where you went and you chose not to tell me." That's the truth of his actions, his choices...

Now, my H could have carried on his A during work...even after the transfer...lots of meetings, times when I had no idea where he was...no control...and he did not call me to say where is was going or who he was with...his schedule varies. I am saying this because there is half trust on each side...one earning and one choosing to give it...

When I knew he wasn't working for sure, I knew his whereabouts...I monitored his cell...for months, even as late as six months after NC...and I told you, I made him my partner...would pick it up in front of him...and he bore with me...same as your H did with his duffel.

I don't know how I would have handled another interference...that email your WH sent to another OW might have had me packing up DH's stuff and out the door, if it came after DDay...third offense, you're out, I guess. Sounds like you discovered afterward?

So let me ask you...tell me...what are your boundary enforcements? When he is abusive...what are your predetermined and progressive boundary enforcements?

Can you see where listen and repeat protects you?

"You are reading too much into that email. It doesn't mean what you think it means."

LLG...breathe deeply, center yourself...you know what was said...listen and repeat. "I hear you believe I am seeing your romantic statements for another woman as meaning you felt romantic towards, when you didn't, is that correct?"

"What? No. Yes. I don't know. It meant nothing."

"I hear to you it meant nothing."

See how saying his truth, separating from your own, hands his back? No refutation...when you want to substantiate what you believe, then that signals you aren't separating his opinion from your own. Listen to that signal.

No need to prove what you believe to him. He heard you say, because he's refuting it himself, that you believe his email meant a lot, was a play and is significant to you. It was. It is. No argument. Your truth.

Two more weeks? What makes this deadline different than the previous ones? I'm not doubting you, LLG...I'm questioning your source...if it is WH or CO? Who made these deadlines before and broke them?

I respect your choice to wait, to not wait; to decide to end your marriage or not...

I think I need to own me urging you to find your LBs, your part, so you could endure, stay focused on self, and achieve a whole, independent relationship with self, no matter what your WH chose to do...or the darn Army. I did that, LLG. That was my way. There are others. I can't conceive of having stayed or fought for my marriage had I not known how my own behaviors and choices...nay, even my beliefs...contributed to a rocky relationship.

Others know...like you...and my fear of recreating through ignorance another relationship...that's huge. Because to go through divorce, the breaking apart...the forming another...and past the Stage 1 of that newness...to run head-smacked into the same situation...because I didn't get to my stuff? I don't know if I could bear that, either...

You bear a lot...maybe I would, too. I'm grateful to have my marriage back, to be growing and learning with my H (who's really getting into exploring this whole passive-aggressive behaviors in relation to affairs and addictions) and to not have to agree...to truly explore, think about...share...is the most freedom I have ever felt. I do want that for you...for everyone here...that is where I come from...and I know that's treading on God's plan and each journey. I'll watch myself. I'll come with a warning, 'k?

LA

Thanks for being here.


Thanks for making the distinction b/c I was geting mixed up. I was hearing my H say well this isn't how I meant it. Then I was also hearing him say, what you think is overexaggerated.

So it seems one is him telling me honestly how he felt the other means him makng a DJ.

Ok, but how so I guess my next thought is to explain that he may have meant this but to me it felt like this or seemed to mean this.


I have said it a couple times but got mixed up in the communicating about this is what he meant and this is so on and so on. So it seemed that I was tlking ot him but not really talking with him, understanding each other and so on.


Got it. I agree.


He isn't my partner yet. I feel he is still very adversarial to becoming one in this way. He becomes annoyed when I question him. However maye this is b/c he doesn't see the relevance. I think that our miscommuncation plays a part in this.


I found this email some time after I confronted WH about 2nd A. He was trying to "get with her". It appeared to me.
This was earlier in the year. The problem came in that she started trying to trcontact him of late. She she texted him thinking it was his phone not knowing that I took his phone line over.

This woman is suppose to be a friend but has spoken really negatively about me and he has to her also. This is what was in the email.


Right now, I don't really have any besides denying SF and limiting intimacy. However WS just barricades all over this plan. Feels he is entitled. And I choose to give in against my better judgement. So this isn't working at all.


Yes, but I need more training on it. ANd I'm still trying to understnad boundaries and setting them and so on.


Got it. MAkes sense.


Yes, I want that too.

I'm looking at the end as you said earlier. The means is coausing me a problem. As Dr Phil would say "How is it working for you?" Not very well. How come you have to come with a warning? But ok if you do, k.

My new warning...

Take what you need and leave the rest.

Okay, so that's not mine...but it is my truth.

:P

Communication isn't easy, though it is simple.

"Thanks for making the distinction b/c I was geting mixed up. I was hearing my H say well this isn't how I meant it."

This is why I began with you, your thoughts and perception, because getting set in your own beliefs...truly...well, it affects a lot...especially how you communicate...helps to tame the urges to react and not act. To react and not listen.

Your H can't tell you what you mean or don't...what you feel or don't...what is your truth. No one can. Only you can.

I repeat because it's important. It goes against all our FOO, our upbringing, when we were mirrored by our caretakers...told who we were, what we were like, very often how we felt--or how not to feel...can you see taking his statements separate from the incident, where you might have been told the exact same things a really long time ago...by others?

You're reading too much into it.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

I heard those...from my parents. They defined me. Our whole teenaged years are in the process of breaking away from that mirroring, which formed us, to define ourselves. I am nearly 45 and haven't broken that mirror entirely. I'm learning, too.

Now, try it with this one:

"Then I was also hearing him say, what you think is overexaggerated."

"So it seems one is him telling me honestly how he felt the other means him makng a DJ." I think you have this...however, you can't control his DJs...in listen and repeat, you hand those DJs back at first, properly phrased...afterall, you're both learning how to communicate. After you get really good with your listen and repeat, you can say, "That was a DJ, could you rephrase?"

Later, you'll get to listen and repeat with filter...this is when there is trust, safety, and your desire to build intimacy...I say this so you know listen and repeat isn't all there is...

I think you knew that. I dunno.

"Ok, but how so I guess my next thought is to explain that he may have meant this but to me it felt like this or seemed to mean this." This is the tricky part of basic listen and repeat..."I hear you saying" is literally; "I hear you saying I'm exaggerating what? My feelings? My beliefs? Your intent? Could you help me to understand what you mean?"

In communicating, you have to know your true intent...

If your intent is to resolve something, at this stage, you'll fail. Why? Because there is a lot of miscommunication. Like picking up a router and not knowing how to use it...just needing to use it for some project.

If you make your intent to communicate...to listen, acknowledge and understand...if your intent is for clarity...then you will succeed. That's my belief.

Once you're good with the router, practicing, honing, striving first to understand, then be understood...then you can see where your intent can change...

Can issues be resolved as you learn? Yes. A lot of unexpected benefits come from pure intent...mostly, what I discovered, was in doing this, I realized what they say is true...90% of "issues" in marriage are to be understood, not solved. The pesky 10% take solid communication skills, safety and confidence to tell your truth and hear your partner's truth.

I believe this is essential BEFORE POJA. I really do.

What if re-establishing your trust was really building new trust...trust in communicating, acknowledgement, understanding--trust you'll be accepted for who you really are?

Would that be worth a lot of effort?

I believe you have stated your truth clearly, with ownership of how you feel, what you think and believe. I believe that because you got that early...and were committed to practicing it. The other part...trusting he heard...not that he would agree...hung you up. He knows, LLG. Trust yourself--he knows. Respect him more. He can know and reject...he can know and discount...he can know and twist (what else is the fog?)...and you have no control over what he does with what he knows.

No one does.

I hear you believe he's defensive, adversarial; that he appears to be annoyed with your choices, questions, is that correct? You choose to guess that it is because he doesn't see the relevance...of what? Your questions? Have you asked...

"I believe you get annoyed with me when I ask you questions. Do you?"

Simple, not easy. Direct, not attacking. Checking yourself...and you are...because you make not DJing more of a priority than not DJing him...because it is within your control...emphasizes separate and equal...not knowing until HE makes his truth known...not believing without your choice to believe right before your eyes...consciously.

I used questions sparingly...kept to the driveby O&H until I really got that separate and equal, that respect thing into my head...and it took time. Practice. Intent. Like learning something complicated, with a lot of steps, and forgetting one or two of them and wondering why I'm struggling...because I needed all of them.

Each question was me focusing on WH. Putting his thoughts, feelings and beliefs before my own. I was a real digger before his A...I had an automatic digging response...I do understand how difficult this would be to break...temporarily...and it was.

About the email...are you focusing on what you believe, or on what H says he was doing? Are you denying your truth? That he will do this...his choice...again...or focusing on what you will do, without question, to enforce the boundary?

Boundaries are around you...denying SF and intimacy aren't
boundary enforcements in my book...oh, I take that back. Before I knew about boundaries, I used denying SF and intimacy (withdrawing) as weapons. That's how I see them. I could be all wrong here, LLG...I know that boundaries are property lines, not high walls...they cannot protect me from another person's choices...they are guides for me which match my standards...and without enforcements, they don't really exist.

They are for me so I do not perpetrate my own betrayal--so I don't disrespect by thinking "he doesn't get it...doesn't understand...didn't know." They alert me to my own feelings and what is mine...show me my beliefs...and when they are crossed, I have to have predetermined, progressive enforcements and act on them.

That's all I know.

In the case of the email and texts...

"If you choose to ignore this person and not take steps to prohibit future contact, then I believe our marriage is at risk for future attacks. I see your choice to ignore and not act on as you determining the risk low to our partnership, while I consider it high, due to your past choices. I will not choose to trust you nor will I choose to believe you."

That's a boundary enforcement...not a selfish demand. This would be after you really communicate your belief that there is his truth, and its valid, your truth, equally valid; and the truth of actions only.

When you give in on your enforcements, you betray you. He doesn't.

I had to consider...which hurts worse? Being betrayed by someone I couldn't control, or the only someone I could.

I'm glad you're choosing your life, your way...take what you want and leave the rest...be selfish and self-conscious, in the best way God intended, LLG.

You can do this.

LA