Well, I probably agree with that, but with some reservations. Certainly if a couple is young and haven't been married very long I would agree. But in the case where the couple have been married, say more than ten years and for whatever reason haven't had children, well somehow that seems different.

Again, my children are from my 1st married and were actually raised by the current (FWH) husband because my XH just wasn't interested in being their father.

My FWH's affair started right before our daughter moved out on her own and I still think that our marriage was worth saving.

Maybe we are really considered "empty nesters" rather than childless.

In any case, I would think twice about bringing a child into a marriage where infidelity has already taken place. Odds are too scary.

WHo

"In any case, I would think twice about bringing a child into a marriage where infidelity has already taken place. Odds are too scary."


And that's the reason why I wonder why I should be continueing working on this. Scary, yes. I keep wondering if I'm making a mistake; feeling sick to my stomach.

LA-Although this has turned into another why people without kids shouldn't work on their marriages thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> , I'm going to work on the resentment timeline and ask my FWH if he wants to as well.

#1mom: thank you for your concern; I really appreciate it. I'm glad things are going well with your hubby. I don't know if I'll ever get to the point of thinking that he'll never do it again. I didn't think he'd do it the first time. I'm not sure I'll be able to think that way again with him or anyone else.

Most days we have a good time together, the marriage is better now, but I have so many doubts and question myself frequently. As for me, I'm doing fine, I'm enjoying life more and more. I hope you are too!

Viv,

You're staying the course. Very cool. Thank you. There's room on every thread for tangential expression. Your thread. You decide. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wanted to chime in on trusting H to not do this again. I accept H is capable of doing this again. What I realize is, I lived through it, gained from it and now flourish (I believe because of that), so I have no fear of it. That's a cool place. Now, if I can apply all that to my parents...well, I'd be flyin'!

(Probably my perspective now is because I betrayed first. BS's who haven't may have more difficulty trusting in the long run because they themselves are so much more trustworthy. I get that. I respect that. That would be really tough. That's a permanent imbalance.)

Can't wait to hear how the timeline is going.

LA

Overcoming Resentment (from MB main site):

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

A particularly relevant quote from the above article:

“In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.”

I’ve been through three D-Days now. Two of them for one VLTA alone. Each DD-day came with heartfelt tears of regrets and renewed promised of fidelity.

Another quote from the above:

“Your spouse looks right into your eyes and lies to you about everything. Faced with undeniable evidence, he or she grudgingly and defensively admits to one lie after another, rarely accompanied by apologies. How can there ever be trust again?”

One aspect not often mentioned is a seemingly remorseless or still relatively entitled FWS. It does not matter what FWS seems entitled about. That attitude alone tends to freeze most aspects of BS personal recovery.

And I used to wonder why my resentment was so deep. It’s less deep now, though. More like an inch deep and a mile wide. Perhaps that’s progress? Maybe I’m finally arriving at the delta of this river of resentment.

Posting here has bled off a lot of my resentment, I admit. I think I resent myself, my stupidity and gullability, my own trust, more than anything now.

LA:

Good news; we're done and ready for whatever's next. My list is long and detailed, and he says his is short (I know he's not thinking of everything) or feels that he shouldn't feel resentful. I asked him to really try to think of more stuff today, so we'll see.

Yes, good news!

Now, that yours is long and his is short doesn't mean he's not doing it right. I appreciate that he was willing to dig further.

I told you mine was the same way...long and detailed and my H's short...very short. Maybe there is something we are taught as women, the way we nurtured that we have more?

Or are men taught that they shouldn't resent? (Like the shoulds matter that we actually do this, 'cuz we're human?)

Hmmm.

I'm excited. Thank you for coming back!!

LA

Okay, Viv,

I hope you've read over your resentments timeline at least once since you wrote it. Did you have any thoughts when doing that?

I want you to think of what your expectations were at the time each resentment occurred and where your expectations came from.

Be gentle with yourself. After thinking about expectations, think about what your choices were at the time of each resentment.

Then re-read your list and post here how you're feeling about the timeline.

LA

My thoughts when I first reread the timeline were that wow, I really resent a lot of things he had done. I resented so much in our relationship. Something was really wrong with our relationship. Seeing it all on paper was depressing.

After re-reading the list, I feel like I expected reactions and behaviors from him that I hold myself too. He is not me. I expected him to not do something because I would not. Because someone with integrity would not.

It's interesting looking through the list after you have gone through your choices. So many times I said nothing, or just let it slide, or choose to nag. When we were in High School, I was too afraid to loose him to stand up for myself. I wouldn't just sit him down and tell him how I felt, or tried to deal with things, other than telling him, hey it bothers me when you do this. You should stop now. I had so many times I could have chosen to walk away, and I did not. My tolerance level is so low now. We have been in counseling, and that was a choice I should have made earlier in the relationship. Now in counseling if something goes wrong with FWH and I, or I see even a hint of continued contact or flirting, I'm ready to bolt. Sometimes I feel like he's walking on a tight rope with every move he makes. He probably feels that too. I am convinced that if this happened again, I could not stay. My radar is still way out there, although I do not check up on him nearly as much as I used to. I like having the idea that this is my choice for today, if he chooses to stray, I have my choice of leaving.

"So many times I said nothing, or just let it slide"

This was the amazing part to me, also. I could hold this resentment for him not meeting expectations that I hadn't told him about AND when he failed those, I didn't say anything to him and held it against him.

I have great news for you...a lot of that trigger-reaction stuff will leave you by clearing up resentments (owning them), and seperating what he's doing now from what he did then. Same for him for you.

Closest reasonable thing to a clean slate we can get. Not forgetting, but seeing where we made our own resentments, held onto them, gained justification with them, piled them up higher for protection and rationalization...and ended up with a wall between our feelings of love and intimacy.

See, you already got the resentment creation part in counseling. You do not allow YOURSELF to create new resentments through your choices. You stop yourself from choosing to stay quiet...what we used to call "keep it to yourself"...yes, we kept our resentments close like an enemy...and free ourselves from this destructive false since of power. It is too heavy...it will cave in a marriage from both sides.

Find your choice in every opportunity for response or action. Then you can't make resentments in yourself. There is the beauty--this part of anger is wholly within your own control. And some of the mixed in emotion is anger against yourself for not choosing, owning, taking action or speaking. When I shovelled my resentment walk, I found myself happier with myself and seemingly, forgiven.

I find that I used my resentments like I used judgments (judging my H's integrity and other stuff). They felt protective, I felt less torn up by things he would do because I gained a little distance with my fire-breathing feeling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I lost what intimacy we began with...H wasn't safe from being judged and blamed for causing my resentments, and he couldn't reach the protective gap to meet my needs.

What's wonderful is that you're not to blame for your H's resentments, but you might find some boundaries in them. My H gave me his five resentments and took back one of them. He read the same stuff on how we create these things and that they felt "done" to us when they weren't. He didn't budge. I finally figured out all the remaining four had in common was "She wouldn't let me" (which I saw as a DJ, like I could make him not do anything)...until I realized that he had a boundary about me telling him what to do. That was a valid boundary. He has let the resentment go because he now recognizes this boundary as being his own and I honor it.

You did great realizing how prone you (and me, too) are to making, keeping, feeding and growing many resentments. What color thumb would that be? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> See, did know you had that talent, huh?

"I'm ready to bolt." In counseling, ask about reacting to the present powered by the past. Take the resentment timeline back to as early as you can remember. Sit with each event you can remember and how you reacted to it...

did you create a resentment?
did you feel betrayed? Invisible? Out of control? Useless? Thrown away? Being told what you were in a negative way?

You may feel like bolting over the smallest trigger that H appears to do because you either believe so strongly he'll do it again that you're living in the future; or you're feeling your emotions compounded by triggering to the far past as well as the present. That's a potent combo.

Look to traumas, big events and where childhood friendships took you, how you reacted, when you felt protected and when you felt vulnerable. I find many parallels to them in my reactions to my H's affair. The bolting-feeling dies away quickly when it is a proportionate pain to the trigger. And you don't hold a resentment for him, do you, when his gesture, word or something inadvertent takes you there?

Last question...

"I am convinced that if this happened again, I could not stay."

Do you feel that staying in your marriage is giving in and losing your own self-respect?

LA

LA:

Thank you for sharing this exercise with me. I am going to continue to work on my resentments and work on owning them.

"I am convinced that if this happened again, I could not stay." "Do you feel that staying in your marriage is giving in and losing your own self-respect?"

At times I do feel that way. But I know and see that things are better now and most times I do not think of it as giving in. I said that more because of all the work we have done to get here, and if he did this again, I do not think there is anything left we could do that would help me trust him again or feel safe again. Maybe next time we could try five years of MC, that kind of thing. I just could not do it.

"You're feeling your emotions compounded by triggering to the far past as well as the present. That's a potent combo"
You are right, that is potent, and I have often felt this way.

Most times I don't have resentments for triggers that he inadvertently gives me or from something or someone else. I know that it's not his fault our waitress has the wrong name, or he smiles at someone who I think looks like her. At first, these triggers would eat away at me, not so much anymore.

I can't thank you enough for suggesting this and talking it out with me. I am glad to hear this exercise helped in your marriage too!

Just thank yourself, a whole lot, for taking the time, consideration and thoughtfulness of writing them out. Very important reflection of your commitment to who you are and where you want to be in this life.

As to answering the question of you deciding now that you can't go through it again, if it were to happen...

Don't go where you aren't so that you will fully be where you are.

Drop the future thoughts. They hurt you today even if you can't see how. You will actively get emotional information from in the present by putting yourself in the future. Same with the past. That helps us to having confusing, potent emotions that mess up, overlap and put our present day information in a bunch. Hard enough to know what we are feeling distinctively, why we are feeling it, than to add all the past and future stuff to it.

Especially future stuff--you won't know it until you're there.

I am harping on this point because it is so important. And we're reared with the idea of looking ahead to the consequences of our actions, planning our future, doing all sorts of stuff that is not only unpredictable, but is like lying. Retraining is important. "I want to grow old together" is factual. "I will grow old with you" is not. Also, living in the future will actually create resentment in the present. You will resent your H if he does this again, therefore, you do resent him. See the tangle?

As you continue to review your list, you will own them...but have they evaporated yet? See, resentments are liquid offenses we do to ourselves; once we expose them to the light, they hiss and leave, taking with them the accoutrements of bitterness.

Wondered if you'd gotten that far. You are staying conscious of not making any resentments today, by your choices right?

"You are right, that is potent, and I have often felt this way." Here is the base of your power. You know your life and triggers aren't knew--you've had them to so many previous events and incidents. The after effect of A's are that we have a name for them--we used to call them "flashes" where we are back in a space, re-living an incident from an odor, a sound...something. Those are triggers, too. You wouldn't think to resent someone for those, right? They are ours. They raise our awareness, link what we're experiencing with the past, and give us a path to why we believe, feel and react to what we do.

Terrible beauty.

"At first, these triggers would eat away at me, not so much anymore." You're exercising your power, claiming your thoughts and are not at the mercy of events. Vivian, you're awesome. These lessons will help you throughout your life. You're brave and true and very, very smart. You know when people talk about loyalty, it sounds like "blind loyalty" or "America right or wrong" stuff? Well, I believe recovering our marriages and building it into a great one with new knowledge is loyalty, eyes wide open.

LA

Missing Viv...

bump

LA

LA:

You’re sweet. I just happened to think, maybe I should look at this thread the other day to see if anything was new. What’s new with you and your marriage? How are things going? Do you have a thread that tells your story other than below your name?

How did you hear about that awesome timeline, in MC?

Thinking of you.

God sure brings me what I need when I need it...

There's Viv...hullo, lovely lady, with a solid EQ...you're like a refreshing cola on a hot day. Lousy analogy, lousy day for me.

I wish I could point you to my first thread...apparently I can't get to it because of all my posts. :::: Maybe someone will let me know how to do that...but it only goes back 250 posts (embarrassing to type that). My story is found in my posts to others, I guess. I posted on my reg date and after a few, stopped. No one wanted to continue to post to me because I argued their advice.

Just figured that out today. I'm a little slow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Happened to me today, on Someday76's thread...got a dose of what I used to dish out. Really triggered me to pieces. Then reallyconcerned posted something so wonderful and honest and accepting...and now you.

Darn. Steps go forward and backward, huh?

Thank you, Viv..so much. Can't tell you in words. Honestly.

Have you been reading other posts here? That's what I did after I argued my way out of help. I read and read for a year...then started to post to others. Uzzah (all these are posters) got me over the OW...but I wouldn't have been brave enough to ask him to if I hadn't been attempting to help a poster end his affair.

You can click on my name to see my posts, if that helps. Piecemeal, but at least it tells my story.

Yes, it was the second thing our MC had us do...first was for my H to end his affair. I liked the order. MB had already gotten to me by then, so I owned a lot of stuff...didn't think of owning my resentments. Took me further along. Gives our power back to us, doesn't it? When we look at what we create and hold over others in ourselves...that's pretty brave and silly, at the same time...because we were feeling powerless, weren't we?

I've referred others to your thread, page 2...instead of typing out the instructions over and over again. You're popular.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My marriage is solid. We focus on our different challenges and share, feel safe (I'm speaking for my H, but it is what he says) and comfortable with our honesty and no LBs.

I still take care not to make new resentments...issues of domestic support come up for me and I choose the importance, keep to my "I" statements, and nothing blows up anymore. I need to widen my obsession with the board to include Stosny's website...dewt posted something from that website here on AdrianC's Last Warning thread today. Sounds like great advice. And if you can think of anything to help Adrian (BS) from your experience, please post. Might be just what he needed when he needed it.

Thank you for reminding me I'm not inside me alone. I forget sometimes.

How are you doing? How's the trust coming along? Boundaries? Fun? Joy? Good stuff? What else have you been reading and where?

Grateful for you,

LA

LA- I hope your days are going better. I read on here often, but only post once and awhile. I learn a lot, but it’s sometimes a bit too close to home and too depressing. Especially on the just found out thread, I can still recall that fresh, intense pain. But overall, it’s been helpful, and it sounds like it has been for your too.

We’ve been in MC for over a year, and are also working on different workbooks. Right now, we are working on a forgiveness exercise in Torn Asunder. The first step is coming up with ten things you are sorry for and finding three words to describe how your spouse must have felt. Then you read your letters out loud and ask for forgiveness. There are some helpful exercises in the workbook.

I did try to find the other Stosny's discussion board that you had mentioned. I found his web site, but not a forum. Maybe there isn’t one. I might pick up some of his stuff too one of these days. There’s a book by Alice May called 365 days of Betrayal, or something like that. I found that helpful, and you can go at your own pace and learn a little insight each day.

I’m glad to hear you marriage is solid and no LB. That makes such a difference with no LBs. I really need to focus more energy again on my “I” statements too, I’ve been slipping with that. Thank you for reminding me. Take care of yourself!

Great to see you and grateful for you sharing the forgiveness exercise. Limiting myself to three words, well, okay.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Really glad to know you're reading when you're not posting, too. I'm much better than my previous post...that was two days of which I finally nailed down in myself that I am still susceptible to believing I'm still a monster. Affairs have taught me about triggers, but I trigger to a lot of things in my life. That thread was one of them. Really worked to another step in accepting that was who I was, and loving that part of me anyway.

Still working on the self-caretaking and getting used to having a happy marriage without things under rugs and behind dressers. Acclimating, I guess. Hope you are, too.

LA