Okay,

My gloom & doom turned out to be unfounded last night. We went to small quite restaurant and, at first, did nothing but sit there. My strained attempts a conversation were pretty bad. But eventually, we got moving. I started (experimentally) telling her about the people here as you folks have become a large part of me lately. She actually responded very positively, so I kept going.

I started with the "Texas" thread that I started yesterday. ML's post had me rolling and it was the first real laughter that I have heard from myself in a long time. She actually started asking me questions about it.

I worked through some of the personalities here. Even told her about Tempest's new "respect others opinions" and the fallout from that. She got a real kick out of a couple of folk's "Mistakes 101" comments.

She was interested enough that I suggested that she consider posting here at MB. I know that I can keep my eyes off her posts so I think that this could work. I warned her about 2x4s (LA, thanks for my beating!). This is not a soft place, but a real one. I also told her that I would leave her alone about it from now on. She then said, what if I do not agree with you (about how good MB principles are). I told her that it would be something to talk about for sure!

I would think that this is a better place anyway. She has been posting on a message board with a lot of closet lesbians that are trapped in bad marriages (bad from spousal abuse/infidelity or by their newly discovered selves). This group is a marriage breaking group. This is not on purpose but simply by an almost hopeless sitch. They are all in miserable situations that they would like to get out of. The point here is completely different.

Anyway, there were no movies out that we wanted to see so we went and rented a couple of movies, dropped by the store and picked up her favorite. Champagne and Strawberries are her absolute weakness. To be honest we both got quite tight. In fact, she is still asleep (9am) and we did go to bed at the same time (first time in a loooooooong time!) With the lack of sleep that she has been getting, I consider this good for her.

W has always had an interest in wine tasting. I have found the local chapter of the Wine Society of Texas. We are joining this group as we need a social outlet that we are not getting. They have a "getting to know you" event at a local vineyard in April. I would think that this is just what the doctor ordered. It is a bit on the expensive side, but our marriage is certainly worth it. Maybe now I will not be so BORING! Yes, that what she has said about me...

She already has a job by the way. This may be one of the points that caused this whole mess. Jobs in this area are great if you have a degree. If not, then the opposite is true. She took a <50% pay cut to come here. However, my increases have more than made up for it. This insult is something that she is having a hard time getting over.

The girls from her work were thinking about getting together tonight. I told her I was all for it and to just let me know. Some good local friends in just the thing that could turn the tide without us having to move. The same goes for the wine tasting events. They are much more social that anything else.

Okay, enough venting for now. Thanks for listening everyone. I know from lots of reading here that our problems are nothing like anyone elses, but I sure feel overwhelmed by them.

C-

I like what you found to talk about...Thursday night, I did the same thing! How 'bout that.

Book clubs are another good idea, if she reads, to fulfill her ENs outside of a fulfilling job (if that is her view). I have a writing group. There are painters clubs and all sorts of home-based hobby supports that can help.

You really showed your openness and honesty desire during dinner. Kudos.

You can block her posts...and show that you won't be able to read hers when she signs up. She can do the same for you. I heavily advise it.

Thanks for sharing,

LA

LA,

Good idea about blocking posts. I never thought of that. However, she does just about nothing on her own so I really doubt that she will. It will be disappointing for sure, but I cannot push it. She promised to read HNHN and since that was over 1.5 weeks ago, she has read it once and only got through chapter one. Absolutely nothing since. Maybe I will forward little bits of MB to her here and there (just the funny and interesting stuff that is not about us). That might work.

I went to the grocery store with her today. I think that she tought I was nuts. She knows how much I hate shopping. What she does not get, it that I lover being with her. Today has been rough. She does not want to talk about anything. In fact, she is still rewriting our history by telling me we never talked that much. That would be true about her job but never anything else.

She has spent an huge amount of time on the internet today. She is keeping some sort of notebook with what looks like quotes in it. I asked her what it was and she did a sideways thing on me again. I am really worried that she wants to have two lives. One without me and one with me. I guess this goes back to what an EA is. Can you end up having an EA with friends?? It is very clear that her friends are more important than my son and I right now. That is hard not to see. She agrees that she spends more time with them than with us. If this is an EA, how do you handle a NC deal? I would have a real hard time telling her she cannot talk to friends. I am just lost as lost can be.

One thing that I had forgotten about my W is that she has no plans for anything. Her motto is live for today. I cannot get her to go back to church. I cannot get her to participate planning the bills or planning for retirement. Heck, if the big D does come along, she will be bad shape even if I send her loads of money. Her sister is already in that shape now. The only thing she is interested in is FUN. Right now, she does not want to talk about anything "Heavy" (her words). This to me is conflict avoidance. I know that we have always been polar opposites. But,we have always complimented each other. Who knows?

C-

You didn't like me pointing out DJs in your previous posts. I was doing so to show you how you injure your marriage and yourself by allowing them. I'm going to try this again...

"she does just about nothing on her own so I really doubt that she will." How does this make you feel safe, judging her this way? She onlines like crazy, you said, on her own. Has her own community of marriage-breakers which to her may seem as self-growth promoters. I dunno. I just know DJs when I see them and don't know how they benefit you or your marriage.

You feel lost...not in control. You don't like her rewriting your marital history, defining you, ignoring her obligations and putting her "friends" as a priority. All that speaks about you, not her.

I can't make you focus on yourself so that you won't feel lost, fearful, disappointed or hurt. You have to choose.

You live a life full of expectations and are reaping the emotions dependent on them. You can't educate her, make her believe MB or anything else. You don't have that power.

I see the real power you do have is thrown away.

Lemme know because you're worth it.

LA

In fact, I need to add this to the above.

1. Can this be an EA and why? I am on the fence on this one as I do not see the OM or OW per se. Many of her actions sure do seem like a major withdrawal, so I am confused. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
2. If it is, what do I do?
3. If not, what stage are we in now?
4. Does a NC letter apply? If so, to WHO?
5. I feel that we are in odd sort of Plan A? Do you agree?
4. What is my name....oh, I forgot, you do not know this as I have never given it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Just as a side note, I would appreciate any prayers for us.

Thanks,
C-

Well,

To be sure, I am trying. I will be getting Love Busters this weekend. This seems to be something you know well.



You sure hit the nail on the head with that one. I have read quite a few of these posts during my investigating (which I am no longer doing) and IMVHO, everything is about personal support without regard to the family or the marriage. Thanks LA.



My concern here is that it is damaging to our relationship and I have no intention of being disrespectful in any way. Now history has shown that I have said a lot of things trying to get my opinion stated and have done VERY poor jobs of it. Yes, it is my opinion but I also thought that this is a part of withdrawal. How do I handle this? I have no clue.



Please explain as I really do not understand this.

You're right...your sitch doesn't fit within the guidelines of an EA very well. However, there is no doubt that your wife is having her ENs met elsewhere.

In the three stages of marriage, would you consider that you are in Conflict and she is in Withdrawal?

Her being in withdrawal--you might feel lost, confused, like your love deposits aren't getting into her lovebank; that you can't reach her. Sound close?

LA

I might buy that. I just do not know where to go from here. Today, I said something to her and she accused me of being condescending. This, of course, has happened before(this probably does not surprize you!)This was never my intention, I was trying to discuss her health and how it was going.

The sitch is sort of like we found our before the A really happened. This should be a positive but I do now know what to do. Like today, she did not want to talk at all. So, I took her to one of her favorite places for lunch and let her drive any conversation. There was some but still a heck of a lot of silence. Then, we went shopping and I just tried to help without really talking about anything.

You are absolutely correct about me not being able to reach her. I have no clue if my deposits are making it to the bank or not. In fact, her EN questionaire has never been even started (similar to HNHN). So I really have no clue where I stand.

Overall, things are better. That I can feel. But, due to my percieved lack of openess on her part, I do not know if this marriage is salvagable.

C-

C,

I'm not a schizo, bashing you one day and stroking you the next. I don't want you to believe that of me. You have every right to feel that I do that.

I'm attempting to direct your focus back onto yourself. That's my goal. You only have control over yourself. You are here and your wife isn't. My options are limited.

I said "You feel lost...not in control. You don't like her rewriting your marital history, defining you, ignoring her obligations and putting her "friends" as a priority. All that speaks about you, not her."

And you answered:

"My concern here is that it is damaging to our relationship and I have no intention of being disrespectful in any way."

You cannot stop your wife from damaging your relationship. You don't have that control.

You do have control over your beliefs and perceptions. You do have recourse to assert, in the vein of openness and honesty, your thoughts and feelings. The only respectful way to do that is with "I" statements. You can improve your communication.

You can own what you feel and tell her about those feelings. You can share your fears, where they come from, how they affect you, and what you're doing to deal with them. You can share all that with her. That could move you from Conflict to Intimacy. Or at least, get you to the door of it.

I looked for your reply to say, "I do feel/believe this or that" when I said what you were feeling. Or that you don't. Instead, you pointed back to her...and that you don't intend to disrespect. I get that. I don't believe she intends to destroy your marriage. You're even.

You want to live with real respect? I know you're getting the book...but I thought you had it already. My bad assumption. I am not bashing you for DJing with intent. Very much the opposite. You can't see what you don't know.

Where I sound bashing is that after I point it out, you don't question, reveal why you believe you're entitled to DJ, or anything but "I didn't mean to do it." Takes changing your inner belief, not just your behavior, C. That's hard work. There is not hard work in "I don't mean to do it."

"Now history has shown that I have said a lot of things trying to get my opinion stated and have done VERY poor jobs of it. Yes, it is my opinion but I also thought that this is a part of withdrawal. How do I handle this? I have no clue."

You have weren't aware of "I feel" and "I believe" statements before. You spoke not to get your opinions heard, but for them to be acknowledged and for a certain result to happen from that acknowledgement.

Do I statements and listen and repeat. You do this because you intend to be a respectful person. One who knows others have different opinions and own their own actions.

You form your code and choose your actions from it. Then what she is doing/thinking/feeling will no longer determine what YOU should do. You no longer react to her, but act from yourself.

With that new belief...then you change the dynamics of your marriage entirely. You are different. You are now committed to honesty and openness...not based on her, but on you.

If you will define your code...your standards and boundaries, I can show you how acting from your code will meet ENs, not LB and make lovebank deposits.

See where there is no manipulation in this? Yes, you are brought to this change because you want to save your marriage....flourish in it, understand and face the reality of it. There isn't a Plan for you to follow to manipulate your wife into contributing and loving the marriage. There is one for you to follow for you. Giving her back ownership of her choices, actions and reactions.

Hit back at me if you need to--you're in pain. You are wrestling a slick pig with no purchase. The lack of purchase is failing your expectation that you can make a slick pig stop moving. Your wife is no pig...but she is as seperate an individual as the pig is...and no amount of believing is going to get you control over that pig.

I really have to get better analogies, don't you think?

Pulling for you in prayers and with what I have to offer...

LA

"This, of course, has happened before(this probably does not surprize you!)"

I have been told I was condescending three times in my life. All devastated me. I don't see you as condescending at all. I'm not surprised because she feels worth nothing, talked down to, childlike...not your doing, but hers. She may not understand that and feel that you're condescending.

Lack of respect can do that. We're used to speaking what we think or feel and having the other person feel responsible for it...because we believe they are. Once we get we are not the cause, control or cure of them, we stop being accidentally disrespectful.

I think that "The road to ****** is paved with good intentions" is from this very thing. The road isn't paved with harmful actions, but ones that assume and mindread.

LA

If your marriage depends on her not being open, then it isn't salvagable.

Could it all depend on her?

Could it be that easy?

Or are you saying, "I feel real anger at her closing herself off from me. I feel abandoned and not valued. I don't feel respected or considered. Without that, I don't have hope for our marriage to thrive."

Lemme know.

LA

LA,

I am working very hard to keep my comments to her based on "I think," "I believe" or "I would like it if". In fact, I mentioned her huge amount of internet use as "I feel unimportant to you when you do this." This is about how I feel based upon her actions. I am trying to understand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I would ask you to keep one thing in mind. I do not say things to her like I type in these posts. Here, I am venting and I do not think about what I say several times before I say it. That being said (oops that almost sounds like a pun!), I do make mistakes and I do LB pretty bad sometimes.

FYI, I was informed to read HNHN and SAA. LB was NEVER mentioned by anyone. I have picked up on this by reading the threads from Eagle15 and Eagle15Tooo. I knew that I needed it after watching this unfold.

Honesty & Openness would have to be #1 or #2 on my EN list. Affection would be the other. I do feel that either of these are being met right now. This is why I am wondering what else I can do. I would say that SF is #3 and there is no chance that happening for a long time. This is why I am worried. If she wants a totally outside life separate from us, I do not think that I will ever trust her. This, IMHO, would not be a good sitch for our marriage.

I will try to summarize what I am doing and also what I understand from your posts.

1. Continue the nice things. This is all that I know to do as I have no idea what her EN are. This I have control over.
2. Avoid LBs.
3. Work on my communication skills
4. Wait
5. Wait
6. Wait
7. Wait
8. Oh by the way, I hate waiting! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
9. Wait some more
10. Wait some more
...this is a very odd version of Plan A.

She does not know what is going on (her words). So how do we find out? Do I need to try and participate or do I let her do this on her own. This is the part I am having trouble with.

What I have no control over:
1) Her posting here.
2) Her talking to me.
3) Her spending all her time talking to her new friends
4) Her working on our relationship at all.
5) Her spending less time on the internet
6) Anything she does or believes.

BTW, I will pray for fire to visit your 2x4s <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

C-

Now I get that what you allow yourself here you don't allow yourself in interacting with her.

Got it.

Uhm, how's that working for ya?

The reason I ask, is DJs (and I am glad you're getting the book...they are on this site, also) is a state of mind, not just actions. Venting here is beneficial for Plan A and when you're attempting to change.

Learning to vent without DJs is crucial to your change.

See my point?

You are DJing yourself, too, when you define her to yourself. You trap her in your mind and look at how she's failing your expectations. That hurts you, see?

You've been reading the Eagle's threads? Is that what you implied when you said your marriage wasn't facing such dire issues? I agree, wholeheartedly. Can you see the destruction in DJs...in believing you have the right to them? Great example. Lots to learn from. That's a future you aren't creating for yourself, C. Congrats on that. I lived a lot of that...ack. Oh. Ouch. ::insert scream here:::

I love puns. Well said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Filling your own EN...you are doing this with your "I" statements...why isn't it magically changing your life? Because you attach an expectation to it. Let go the expectation. You are being open and honest to act from your code, not to get your wife to change. See why what you believe and your intent is so powerful?

You know her ENs...she doesn't have to do the questionnaire (and you can't make her). She wants conversation, attention, admiration, encouragement, acts of service, and verbal affection. Least, that is what I get. What do you think?

Eliminate LBs...which you're working on. Avoiding is only good enough until you get the book. ::::ducking your swing at me::::

I'm rolling over your list. Your humor is terrific. I hated waiting, too. So I didn't. I kept looking for ways to fill my own ENs...being honest and open verbally (which killed two birds with one stone..conversation and O&H)...eliminating LBs took a lot of my time...I examined affection thoroughly and what it represented to me...acceptance, existence, support, encouragement and nonverbal conversation...and began giving those things to myself.

SF represented acceptance as well. Affection is close to SF, so what I was doing was helping in that area, also.

She - "I don't know what's going on."
C - "I hear you don't know what is going on with you, is that correct?"

Listen and repeat...I realize she isn't talking...but like in the grocery store, you have opportunity to state your stuff, act from your code and listen intently so she feels heard. You have to get safe to be talked to (terrible grammar, sorry). That's where LBs bust up all communication. See how each of these things contribute to balance?

Okay, so just being nice doesn't cut it. As nice as you are to her, you must hold yourself to being to yourself.

That help out with the plan...and the waiting?

LA

P.S. ::watching the bonfire my 2x4's created::::

I guess the point is now is that I have to wait for her to respond. What form does this response normally take? More affection from her? her being more open? I guess the question that I am asking is how do I know when we are moving from Plan A to true recovery?


My advice, be very careful...I'm Quuuuiiiiickkkkk! (this should sound like Jeff Foxworthy we he talked about running over Siamese cats)



Are you sunburned yet? That there should be a dang big-o fur! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ROFL...why, yes, I'm pink with sunburn. Thanks for noticing.

Lemme try this again...you want me to tell you how to know you're in recovery?

Is that correct?

Is this because the waiting for her to be open and honest with you...(I saw the O&H in her saying she doesn't know what's going on, but that's just me)...is killing your love?

Are you sinking?

Drowning?

Feeling lost as well?

You, with the plan, the knowledge, the 2x4 bruises...hmmm. I must be missing something. You going into the future and want me to show you the way?

LA

Well,

I guess what I am asking is how will I know? She says she wants to work on this and does not want to give up. But, her actions and efforts just do not seem conviencing to me.

I have a real problem with expectations. This is something I will have to work on. She still sticks daggers in my back when I least expect it (that hurts really bad...). Her responses are almost never what I expect (valentines day is a prime example).

Anyway, we are still working on it. No angery outbursts (which I have been known to have from time to time). I am still working just to be nice. It would help to get something back in return (I need some feedback!).

As for H&O, she is tyring to explain how she feels now. However, there has been a huge amount said behind my back to others that has not been explored. I need to discuss this with her at one point. As I see it, the Honesty part is there. It is the Openness part that is lacking.

Here is a prime example: I came home today and she was on my laptop. I noticed that it looked like a map. So I asked her what she was looking at (thinking that it was somewhere she wanted to go). You would have thought that I had asked the President to see something only the CIA can see. Finally in a very exasperated tone, she told me she was signing up for a 30 day free trail for Yahoo's online greeting cards. Of course it goes automatically to your credit card after 30 days. This is something that I think we should have discussed and POJAd. But, I am intruding on her "space." Once the openness issue is rectified, then I will know that we can move on.

C-

As long as she is being defensive, you'd best keep up yours. Stalemate? C/b....but you can stand it longer than a WS can. They have short term memory and attention spans. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid,

Do you agree that this behavior is suspicious? This is why I posted the Secrets in Marriage thread a while back. W seems to think that Openness in not a requirement while I could not disagree more.


By this, do you mean that I need to be defensive? I do not think that this would be healthy. H&O is my #1 EN. I need to at least be honest with myself and keep following my own code. I am keeping my defensives up as far as the success of my marriage is concerned. I cannot tell you if we will succeed or not. I do know that since I have no control over her, I can only hope. I can only keep doing this odd Plan A and keep hoping that things change. As LA has pointed out with her 2x4's, I cannot control anything she does.

C-

Oh,

Here is another example. Yesterday, W started asking me if Dr. Harley had written a book on surviving affairs. I said yes and wanted to know why she asked. She got very defensive and said (this is now a famous one for her) "don't read into to this". I really think that one of her friends wants to save her marriage. I wanted to get some details as SAA (& the rest of these books are not meant for someone who does not want to love their spouse). I never got an answer as it was none of my business (in her humble opinion).

Now maybe you can understand why I am so confused! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Driving to work this morning, I thought really hard about what has been going on. It has occured to me that I have not had a wife for about 3 months. This is when the love of my life departed. Her body is still here, but she is gone. I now have a roomate (which happens to be the mother of my DS).

I cannot remember the last real kiss (the last phyical one was over 3 weeks ago). I cannot remember the last heartfelt hug. I cannot hold her hand (I get quick little squeezes that now feel like "if I do this he will leave me alone" when I try to). She literally pulls away from almost all physical contact. I would liken this to unwanted contact from someone who disgusts me (but she says that is not the case.) I get an ILY every few days but I sense little feeling behind it.

Yet, she is not really having an affair. I am not sure how much more of this I can handle. Her balance in my bank is falling faster every day (it is so fast that I can FEEL IT). But, if you ask her (and I have) the past few days have been "GOOD." I beg to disagree but I cannot talk about it as it is all "too heavy" for her to deal with. At this rate, it is conceivable that I will not love her soon (although this tought pains me more than words could ever say).

If you cannot tell, I am in the true depths of depression this morning. Just my worst nightmare coming true. My heart is hardening and I do not like it all. I am afraid that I am about to become something that I hate. I am becoming a frail, insecure person who is afraid of going home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

C-