brokenbird - okay, your thoughts as expressed in this latest post bring back a flood of memories about how things WERE in my marriage at the beginning.

Let me give you ONE example. AFTER the NC letter was delivered, after we began Marital Counseling, after my wife moved back home....we took a getaway trip for our wedding anniversary to a cabin in the mountains for the weekend. Quite, peaceful, just the two of us.

At one point I needed to run to the store for something we needed for dinner, and while I was gone she called the OM.

The tendrils of an affair, especially a Class II affair, take TIME to get unentangled and reconnected with you.

So let me turn for minute to some of what you said:



They are HER walls. You CANNOT climb them, she has to take them down in humble submission. You can march around them like they were Jerico, but YOU can't make them come down. That is "God's job, man!"

You follow God in humble obedience, trusting in God, not yourself or your wife, or me or MM or anyone else, and let God bring down the walls in HIS time, not yours. God is working on both of you, and knows what each of you needs. It's in HIS timing, according to Romans 8:28.




Brother, your impatience is showing. How well ALL Betrayed Spouses know this one. It is the "uncertainty factor" and the "inability to KNOW the future factor." Yes, you can be expecting too much right now. It takes TIME, not just words and a little desperate "stick-to-itiveness" to prove that the changes are real and lasting. For your peace of mind, if the changes you have made ARE real and are a committed choice you have made "no matter what happens," then RELAX, they will be seen and they will be accepted in God's timing as He works on your wife's "walls" and resistance.




Yes, this "fear of losing her" is common to all of us who WANT to recover our marriages. The truth is that you already HAVE lost her and now you are trying to find her and restore her to her position as wife and mother. YOU remain faithful to your covenantal vows (in this case I am thinking of the endurance needed for the "or's" of the vows that speak to the trials and tribulations you might/have encounter[ed]) and let God do HIS part as a partner to your marriage covenant.

Brokenbird, your wife needs to "get right with God," to address her relationship with God, BEFORE she can proceed with you. You think those "walls" are just about you, but they are not. They are fundamentally about God, and obedience to our Sovereign Lord no matter what we are feeling. So take heart, God IS in control and God knows just what is needed and how long you must "march around the walls in YOUR obedience" so that she is ready for the day the Lord chooses to bring the walls down....totally down, and to "let you in."




bb, this sort of thinking has to stop. You are NOT responsible. You think a prayer that doesn't get immediate results the WAY and WHEN you want the results is YOUR fault. It is not. God answers all prayers; yes, no, wait, not yet. Also, while praying is good and desireable, it is counterproductive, and even wrong, when you start putting into a category of "things that YOU can do that put YOU 'in control'." Thus, if you DON'T do it, you are responsible for someone else's sin or bad choices. That is nonsense and borders on heretical....God says to pray NOT because He "needs" you to pray before He can act, but because He tells you to bring it "all" to Him in prayer, as you would in trusting discussion with your Father. HE, not you, has the power. HE will do "exceedingly, abundantly, FOR you whether you pray or not because He IS your loving Father. But He DOES enjoy and covets the conversation with you.

God bless.

P.S. Watch out for the "pitfall" of MB. The "instant contact" and advice lends itself to impatience in results. It's one of the reasons most marriage counseling is ONCE a week. It gives time for things to be done, to be intergrated, to experience change....it acknowledges that recovery from life threatening trauma takes TIME.

The average recovery time is 2 years....don't try to inordinately rush the process.

Hi again BB...
We seem to be cross-posting on each other's threads, lol.
Hey listen, I will ask Mr. Cookie if he'd be willing to email you. My guess is that he won't want to do it. He's a very private person, uncomfortable offering advice, and has a strong aversion to "getting involved in other people's business." But you never know. He has pulled so many surprises out of his hat these last couple of months, maybe he as a few more in there. I also think it would be good for him to have someone to talk/vent to. He has talked to his brother a little bit about our situation, but has not told him or anyone else (except our MC of course) about my affair. Anyway, I'll run it by him this weekend and get back to you on Monday.

--SC

Hi SC -


We were able to talk some more this weekend, and I told her that I had come to the conclusion that I was indeed smothering her, based on several indications. She agreed that I was, and went further to say that it was "overwhelming" her. I believe I have changed a lot, and while I have maintained those changes, the scope of them could very well be overwhelming, especially when she had reached the point of giving up hope that I would ever change.

So now I am operating on the mode of not "forcing" my meeting of her needs on her. I believe she knows that the changes are genuine and sincere, and her to stay. I'm trying to pay more attention to her body language and other non-verbal cues, and doing more reactive things than proactive. I still do some proactive things, but there interspersed throughout time, rather than every single time I think or feel I should. If she gives me an indication that she has a need she wants met, I will meet it. On those occasions I reach out to her and get no response, I back off (without being upset or hurt...or at least I try to).

I've also come to the conclusion that I need to stop acting like a kid at Christmas everytime she allows me to meet a need. I just need to simply meet it, honestly and enthusiastically, without getting all excited and gushy or whatever about it.

As an example, until last week, I made it a point to tell her I love you with every phone call or e-mail conversation we had, or when going to work or before going to sleep. She knows that I love her....and I think in some ways I may be overdoing it by always saying it every time I can. (Does that make any sense?)

And stop over-analyzing things. I can analyze things to the point of extinction....and still not come up with a reasonable answer half the time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One thing I am curious about, from Mr. Cookie's stanpoint (or other successful FBS). I set some boundaries in place for her return, but last week she told me that she didn't think I had any consequences for her crossing them (specifically the no contact boundary). That's a good point...and I have been working on setting up some consequences.

The hard part for me is deciding what the appropriate consequences are - I don't want to put meaningless consequences in place, nor do I want to have consequences that are knee-jerk reactions or vindicative in nature.

I've gotten lots of advice from people on the forums, as well as people in our lives. I think the best advice I've gotten so far is to continue to rely on God to guide me in what to do (which is, ironically, still the hardest thing for me to do). Others have taken a more extreme stance, and think I should follow some of the "tough love" concepts.

I know that she is struggling with this whole thing. I know that she has reached out and is in contact with some FWWs on this site. I know that she still has feelings for OM, and very few, if any, for me (I do believe she still has feelings for me, but they're buried under a ton of crap). So my question is, how do I set a path for her to return fully and willingly, while still protecting myself (and my love for her), and our kids?

Any consequences I set up I have to follow through on, or they're meaningless. And I have not been very good at setting up consequences for her in our marriage (great at setting them up for the kids, lousy with her). I.e., I've been weak in the past, which has led to a loss of respect.

As always, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The big stumbling block right now is NC and honesty. We have our next MC session tomorrow (on Valentine's Day...go figure). I hope to get some stuff established then.

I'll be honest...I do fear that if I set up consequences (especially extreme ones, like Plan B), I will have to follow through because she will probably try and call my bluff. That scares me....but if that is the route I have to go to win her back I will. I just want to do my best to not needlessly push her down a path.

In a nutshell - I want her full commitment to working on our marriage, and as long as OM is in the picture (even if it is just e-mail or phone conversations), she can't give me that.

FH -

Thanks for your support, again. I didn't reply until today because I've been busy with life and trying to sort all my thoughts out.


That's a very valid point...I don't know why I thought scaling her walls would do any good. I could even see where actively trying to scale her walls could cause her to make them even higher.

I know God is working on both of us. I hope it means our marriage will be restored and rebuilt, but sometimes I wonder if maybe it's just not what MP needs at this time to bring her back to God.....or if the loss of our marriage could serve that purpose. I still believe that it is not God's will that any marriage should fail, but I also know that He can and will bring incredible good out of bad.

One of the hardest things I've ever said in prayer, and I've said it more than once (even in front of MP), is that if our marriage is not to be saved, that God will at least save and restore MP.


Sigh. Yeah...I know. I'm having a huge problem with patience right now, and you pretty much nailed on the head how I'm feeling. I could do this so much easier if I knew that our marriage would be saved at some point down the road. Of course, on the other hand, I don't think I'd grow nearly as much in my walk with God if I knew what would happen. Funny...I don't recall growing as a kid hurting this much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Very true. From what I can see (and what I've read from her posts and e-mails), she is in neck-deep in this struggle right now. I guess, even though it's a hard spot for me to be in (and her), it's better that she's in a state of internal conflict than 100% happy with the A and the OM. Still sucks to be in this spot though.


As I told MM, getting it isn't my problem. Keeping it is. As you've just pointed out again. I need to get rid of this urge to control everything in my life. That's a hard thing to do (for me at least).


I was going to say that I fear we're going to be longer than the average, but then decided that would be another prime example of me trying to take control of something that is not mine to control. I am in this for the long haul, even though some days I feel so far down I can't even see the sky.

Thanks again for your kind words and gentle rebuke. Sometimes I need a person that can speak objectively to me to get my head screwed back on straight.

Hi Bird,

Thanks for responding to my post next door.

Sounds to me like you're doing great with your plan "A" adjustments. Ease up on the "I love you's", meet the needs without acting like a kid at Christmas (that cracked me up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I do indeed think you and Mr. Cookie have a lot in common).
These early days are a difficult dance for both the FWS and the BS. The situation calls for you to be "Joe Cool" not "Ricco Suave'" (sp?).

But the overannalyzing things -- nope, not him. That's me.

I did ask him about emailing you. As I suspected, he doesn't feel comfortable. Sorry.

About the boundaries -- beats the daylights out of me. I hope someone comes along with an answer for you because that whole boundary thing is a mystery to me too. I do know there's a difference between a boundary and an ultimatum. But I'd really like someone to walk through an example of how you set a boundary, and then enforce it.

--SC

Hi SC -


No need to apologize <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm not totally without support, was just hoping to get some insight off the forum from another husband going through what I'm going through.


Me too. I know ultimatum's don't work. I hope our counselor will give us some insight tomorrow morning. Maybe I'll get motivated and start a thread about the difference between boundaries and ultimatums.

One more thing that I think I forgot in my prior posts.

MP told me that I tend to go to extremes. Case in point - I went from being grudgingly involved with family activities and meeting her needs, to being fully involved in family activities and trying to meet all of her needs all of the time, at the exclusion of doing things for myself (such as spending time with my (few) male friends, etc).

It is, I'm afraid, an accurate summation. I can see, now, where that would appear to be the case. I have opted to maximize my time at home and with the family (even if we're not necessarily doing "family" things), thinking that by doing so I could demonstrate how important they all are to me. Our current work schedules (nearly opposite shifts) also played a role in that.

She wants me to have interests outside of the family and her (within reason..hanging out with a bunch of girls at the local watering hole would obviously be waaaaaaay outside the reasonable bounds <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Current crisis and trust issues aside, I feel pretty confident in saying that, since backing off the "aggressive" Plan A on Friday I've seen some changes in her reactions towards me.

Now if we could just crack that NC nut and the issues of 100% honesty and openess, I'd be able to rest a lot easier.

Mortarman and/or ForeverHers -

Would you be willing to e-mail me (address in my sig line)? I have some questions that I would like input/counsel on, and prefer not to discuss them on the boards at this point. Thanks.

MM/FH -

I posted an update on my original thread, but don't know if you saw it.

Last night, MP gave me the NC letter, which I will mail tomorrow during lunch. She also gave me the information I had requested that will enable me to begin to rebuild my trust in her. Also, the OM told her not to contact him ever again a couple of weeks ago.

Now for the next question. My wife recognizes the changes and growth I've had and am having. She also has a lot of hurt, anger, sadness, etc from my actions/inactions over the last 5 years. She wants a 6 month (minimum) separation, so she can get to know the new me without having all the crap from the old me popping up every time she looks at me.

I'm fundamentally opposed to separation, because of the inherent risk it runs (out of sight, out of mind). However, I can also see some value in it, if it's a tightly structured separation with a definate end goal in mind and well-defined steps to reach that goal.

I realize that this is all in God's hands, and I'm trying very hard to leave it there and let Him work. However, I can't exactly be a passive participant (being too passive is part of what led us to this point, in addition to all the other stuff).

Any ideas/thoughts on a separation of this nature? Thanks.

Separation is NOT recommended! What you need is a plan for recovery. I highly suggest several sessions with Steve Harley for both of you. He will get a plan for you. Separation cannot be a part of that.

In His arms.

Hi MM -

Well, I suggested talking with the Harley's, but she didn't want to go for that, because she's pretty dissatisified with the MB forums right now.

Our therapist thinks a separation might be in order, but I'm still not 100% convinced.