je---i just want to throw in my support and let you know i am praying for you both!

JE, I see your predicament. It's as though your H has good intentions, knows he has been wrong, but cannot motivate himself to do the tough things that would really spur your recovery.

I empathise with you both. R is not for the faint of heart.

I am not sure that you should go back to work f/t just to pay for counseling. With four children, (in braces, no less!) that may put quite a strain on you and the marriage. It is for you both to think about further.

I also empathise with you on the mindf from your 1st MC. My H and I had a pretty bad experience with our first one as well. Yikes. It sounds like you got the shaft all right. There are probably about as many good ones as there are bad ones, and unfortunately the only way to tell is to begin counselling with them and see how you feel. That is an expensive proposition.

I think that if you can *possibly* swing it, calling the Harleys would help. Even just a couple of calls. But I understand financial concerns, particularly when there are children to care for.

I am sending both of you good thoughts. Take care, JE.

Thanks Nikko, I think we need the support alot too.
Penalty,
We will chat about it. I will check into the cost of the Harleys and maybe try to swing a few sessions. I would love to go to a MB weekend, but being way up north, not many opportunities would arise. So, I will look into the phone counseling and MC that are recommended here and do some homework.
Thank you,
JE

I think I would start on spending 15 hours a week doing pleasant things together (without the kids). Can you do that? It doesn't have to be things that cost a lot - just time spent together.

Hi there, I'm back, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hello Monica,
How are you doing?

So much has been happening lately I would like to update and ask for assistance maybe.

FWH gave me the NC letter this morning. It was the one right out of Surviving the A. Waited 9 months for it and never expected one, kinda felt weird. He has stated he was NC for 6 months prior to dday, so it would make it actually a year and a half since last contact. It was sent this am by me. Question: Should I expect this to now open another can of worms? I mean if they truly have been NC for that long, will it not cause her to think about him and try to make contact? She told me that she loved him, and they were together for 2 years and he broke it off with her. I thought about this as I was putting it in the mail, but knew it needed to be done for him and me. SO that is progress that I can see, which is nice.

Last night we were snuggling and talking about the M and comfort levels with each other. I am becoming more open with my intimacy, which has always been an issue. I am trying to tell him what does and does not feel good. That is extremly hard for me to do. While talking about this, I make a suggestion in a very seductive way, may have stated it wrong and he pulled away, put his face in the pillow, and kinda huffed at me.
To many this may not be an issue, but with my past, just to be initmate is hard at times and things were flowing so well, but when he did that my typical shut down and find a safe place mode kicked in. He felt bad, but unfortunately I cannot help it or stop it most of the time. I do try and have made huge progress, but that immediately shuts me down, and I am no longer there and the protective walls go up. The little scared girl is back. He then makes me feel guilty for shutting down. It is a vicious cycle.

It seems like we take one step forward and three steps back. I know this is part of R but it is still so difficult. When does this even out and get better. So many times I just want to say, "Forget it, it just isnt working"
I know I need to be patient, but how long is too long? I feel myself progressing and surpassing him. I find myself thinking about moving on sometimes, or even thinking we both would be better off going our separate ways. Is this normal progression of the R or is this us growing further and further apart?

je

As you change your ways of interacting, there are bound to be problems. You will need to toughen up, and if you request something and he responds like he did, then you need to discuss it. Let him know that it hurts you, and ask what is going on with him.

As far as the NC letter, I wouldn't worry about it. Your husband has done this the MB way, and I think that is an excellent sign. I really thought he was going to put it off.

Well believer he did put if off for quite some time. 9 months since dday...but I am glad that he even did it. It shows that maybe he is starting to work on the M and I am proud of him. I did tell him that for sure. I think it made him feel pretty good..lol


He did tell me about getting upset. This might get a little graphic for here..not sure..
I was trying to explain to him that when he touches me it is very cold..in that he pats me like a dog. I do not feel loved during SF. It is just, OS for him, hop on top, done. Then after I am the one to cuddle him, or he gets close to me and literally pats me like a dog, even scratching. It does not feel good, and I would rather not even cuddle. I was showing him with my hands on his back, caressing, lightly touching, how to show you care with your hands. Even a kiss from him is like a peck on the lips. Not deep and passionate. I was trying to show him that I do care, and how I show with my hands and mouth. Not words, but action in my eyes. He asked me to show him how to do this and I did. I also hugged him tightly, rested his head on my chest, and held his head as a mother would. I asked him if he felt safe with this, he said yes very safe. I told him, that is how I would like to feel. I think he took it wrong, withdrew, and huffed. I felt belittled and in no way safe at that point.
I let him know I was hurt. I told him I work on the abuse stuff everyday. It is part of who I am. He apologized and wanted to try again. I just could not.
I do not enjoy SF most of the time,I loathe it at times, unless I have most of the control. I am trying to show him how to help me feel safe during it, so that I can let go of the control, but he gets angry which sends me realing...
Seems like a no win situation sometimes in regards to SF.

Hope you read the whole sex thread on the EN forum. Very interesting.

Well, you have been honest with him. Let's see if he learns anything. Although part of the stuff you are talking about is more like a female than a man. Most men I've been with haven't been that great in the sack. I've learned how to make do, with lots of practice. Now all they have to do is show up.

"Now all they have to do is show up." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
LOL Believer.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I soo know that one. That is why I have questioned my own sexuality many times lately in the whole fix me phase I have been in. I so want to feel safe sexually and havent for many, many years, if ever. But if the M does not work out, I for one know I will at least try that approach.
Je

Your sexuality is probably just fine. Men will never be like women. They really can't help it. I think we have to look for the safe and nurturing, holding stuff through our women friends.

JE

this is pretty hard time for both of you. I know that I was very inhibited in SF for a while, and that my H also went through times where he had absolutely no desire for me.
It really is a emotional roller coaster.

I dont think there are any magical resolutions it takes time, patience, and somtimes both of you have to just take a deep breath and try again.

What is very important is to try & keep the channels of communication open. And yes its VERY hard to talk about what pleases you - I mean it sounds stupid but it is so hard. Maybe its our culture & religious educations from kids, probably is for me.

I do think you both will need a good MC and after the first one was so bad its kinda hard to jump into a new MC session. Have you read the section here on the MB forum about finding a GOOD MC for you both?


Here is the link
How to find a good MC

I do see great hope here JE, that your H is willing to follow MB principals is great. It shows he is willing to commit to working on the M, though of course expect him & yourself to balk at some things, thats natural and thats where a MC can help you both work through those road blocks.

And remember to vent here NOT at each other. However expect that at times you will both have a few yelling sessions.. we are not super human are we?

In my prayers

Believer, I read it all and posted but look out. I posted on pleasing part and its graphic...lol..hoping like heck that lostone doesnt see it...lol...he will die...

AW,
I am so happy that he is making some progress. I am trying to keep my spirits up, and wait. The waiting is soo difficult. I wish I was superhuman sometimes. When I triggered on last Friday, I not only felt horrible, I felt horrible for him. He took it all personal, yes he had the A, but the trigger was mine to own. I am getting better at dealing with them, that one just through me thru a loop.
I do tell him all the time where I see his improvement. So he gets some praises along the way. I thanked him for the NC letter. I know it was for me, but in a small way it was for him too.
He still cringes when he hears her name. Still withdraws at times when the word A comes up. I am going slow, yet still need some peices to the puzzle for my brain. It is usually once a week or so. Not daily like it was the first 2 weeks after dday. So for him the letter had her name on it, he looked up her addy at work, put her name on the envelope and handed it to me. That was big for me.
The steps forward give me a small sense of what might be, but the steps back send me reeling, and I question the M alot to myself.
I really do not yell or vent to him. Havent since way before dday. That I did get from MC. That was all I got, but I also learned how to avoid all confrontations, and I need to learn how to re-engage sometimes. I think I was so withdrawn for so long, I dont want to come out.
Everything with me is, as a matter of fact, like. On dday, I did not yell, scream, etc. I just said, get out in a plain tone. Then when he moved back, it was the same. I may have shed a tear or 2, but no venting, nothing. I am sort of detached still.
Like if I do argue with him, I feel like that will send him back into her arms. It will all take time for us both. He wanted a quick fix, sweep it under the rug, etc. I want a peaceful solution...peaceful to R or peaceful D. Make sense? Is this wrong of me too?

I am going to bed. But will look at the good MC tomorrow when my head is rested. Pain in the back and pain meds are making me foggy and rambling...thanks all
JE

FWH and I had a lenghty, and healthy chat for 6 hours last night. Not all chatting of course, but it did wonders for him and myself I think.
Some questions were answered, others not answered, new ones came up. This is progress, I see it and I like it.

I also have looked into MC and the Harleys. 185.00 an hour with the harleys. I know my insurance covered it 2 years ago, now reading the stuff from the Harleys I wonder what that darn MC from heck put as my diagnosis..lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I think I would like to go the Harley approach. I will approach with POJA with FWH and see his thoughts. Any idea of length of time. I could swing the 185 a month, but surely not weekly, unless I dont feed the kids.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> 1200 is quoted from the website, and the homework looks promising to me. That keeps us both on track, makes us accountable and getting a kinda report card at the end with suggestions.

Well just updating or maybe journaling...who know..
JE

I've seen people who only had one or two sessions who said it meant everything to their recovery.

Thanks B. Love your post, I am learning a whole lot right now.
I hope he is in for it. I am impatient, I know that..lol
But he tends to drag his feet, if you couldnt tell..
I will chat with him this week.
We are both taking a week off from work to spend with the kids on a couple of days, and to just spend with each other too. Just trying to figure out recreational stuff is soo hard. We truly have no common interests when it comes to that area.
We even went over all the ones in the book, and laughed. We thought maybe trying basketweaving??LOL
JE

JE,

Can I ask you a question. I want you to think about this alot. It has to do with what I am talking to your H about, but I see it may apply to you as well.

Let's consider something pretty hypothetical right now. Let's say your H came to you and said "JE, here I am, anything you want to know, I will tell you. Anything you want me to do I will do. If you want to know how I am feeling or thinking, it is yours for the asking. In short, I am placing my heart, my insecurities, my fears in YOUR hands."

My question to you is could you handle it, if you had that responsibility and that openness. If you had him completely at your mercy, what would you do?

By the way, I was very impressed on your discussion about showing him what you need. Please under NO circumstances stop doing this. He has to learn many things and only you can teach him, and yes you two will trip over each other from time to time, but I am betting he is still thinking about what you were showing him. DO NOT STOP THIS. He will come to understand that this is NOT an attack on him, but you simply opening up to him. You both will benefit.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
Very good questions. I have thought and thought about this for a long time, you worded it better than I ever could, but the meaning is there.
If he came to me and said I am placing my heart, my insecurities and my fears in your hands, I would embrace that. Meaning, I would hear, listen, comfort, guide, hold his hand, be there for him.
If I had the responsibility and his openess, him at "my mercy" what would I do? I would embrace the openess, show acceptance and understanding. I would praise that openess and foster it as best I could. I would in a sense protect him from the fears and help him face them, be unjudgemental and accepting without taking control of the situation, soothing and comforting, and help him as best I could.

I have done exactly what you asked of me, in reverse to him. I have opened a book (my life) to him, I opened my heart, have forgiven him for the A, and want him to be there for me, as I want to be for him. I have done this before however. This A is not all of the picture. I do still fear him, but am willing to face that fear, forgiving the past. I have laid down my walls, the walls that have protected the little girl from harm all these years, to let him in again. I have asked for understanding and forgiveness from him for my part in the A.
My abuse as a child has driven my life many times. I had to let my walls and my coping drive me. I was not able to take the lead many times. In that, I learned how to in my eyes, protect him from my pain. I many times tried to ask him for help, protection, comfort, etc. and he shut me out and even caused more harm. After doing this twice in the M, I gave up. I knew he did not want to hear it, he refused to accept that for the rest of my life, this will always be part of who I am. When the WS says things like if they could go back in time to stop it, or have a magic wand to wash it away, I know that feeling. I wanted many times to ignore it, wash it away, go back and change it. I refused to accept that part of my life. Then I, through IC and reading alot, that I cannot change it. It is part of me and will always be part of me. I grew up with never hearing "I love you" not once. I was told I was fat, lazy, worthless, ugly, a slut that asked for it. I was physically abuse from my own mother for my entire life. These parts of me, that I deal with daily, are parts he has refused to accept and understand. Since DDAY I have opened up my world to him again. He continues to chose to push that part of me away. The pain and the hurt I am experiencing from the A, he has pushed away or turned to his benefit.
I am here for him. I see his pain and so much want to help him. I know I cant fix it for him, but I am willing to understand and accept that as part of him. Part of a learning process, part of the whole him, that he will never forget. His past 2 marriages, his parents both dying in 6 months, his childhood; all are part of who he is. I want to be there for him, listen, comfort, understand, guide. All of these things, that I so want for myself, I want for him.

But with that said, I have to add. I am still very fearful of his rejection. I will live through it, but it still hurts. When he doesnt open up to me, or pushes my pain away, he in a sense is rejecting me. I am also fighting a battle within myself. I knew how much I loved him. Even after dday and prior to that, I loved him. But as I sit here with tears in my eyes, I know that the love that I had has dwindled and faded. I let that happen. I let him in so many times, to be shut down, pushed away, minimized, rejected, taken for granted. I have for the last time, let him in. I know that this is it. I cannot do this again. I expect bumps along the way, I do not expect perfection. I do expect an equal partner, one that takes my needs and feelings and experience and incorporates that into his life, his world.

Sorry its so long.
JE

JE,

I asked you these questions for many reasons. One of them may seem very very odd to you. ANd I will admit it is based on knowing you were abused as a child, and knowing that you two are quite abit apart in age. This whole thing seems to me to be complicated by competing issues and I know I am not qualified to address them. Hence I am bring this up for you talk with your counselors.

I think part of the problem is that you see him as your protector and he sees you as someone to protect. I think another part of the problem is that he has a hard time facing how deeply you have been hurt in your childhood and thus closes himself off to you. I think another part is that HE needs your support and help but fears it is too much for you to handle in addition to everything else. I think you want and are an adult, but in other ways you are still that child that was so horribly abused.

I would also bet his A, had to do with his insecurities and NOT a failure on your part, other than he has a hard time seeing you as someone he could depend on due to his view of you as someone that needs to be protected.

Do you see the conflicting things going on here. Now if I am at all correct, none of this is a show stopper. What it would take is a different perspective of each other and yourselves. I know the man loves you deeply. I know from your words you fear him hurting you, and thus you have allowed the "in-love" feelings to dwindle. But, those feelings can be rekindled because deep down you have stayed true to your word to "love" the man as in the verb to love. I think oddly he has done the same, but has been deeply confused about many things including himself.

He has a lot to learn yet JE, but one of the things he needs to learn is that YOU are capable of protecting him. That is a role he has never seen you in. Yet, it seems you are a mature woman with children and you are addressing your childhood abuse issues. Thus you are now capable of being someone HE could lean on and trust.

I think if you have patience and you focus on being the woman you are and as you show him your strength, things will change as he changes his perspective. I don't feel I should tell you what he and I have been talking about, but perhaps sometime he will tell you. I do like your answers to my questions and I hope you continue to focus on them.

I think what you are looking for is a man to love, not just a man who loves you. If I am right, and he does the things he knows he should do, you might just have that man.

God Bless,

JL