I am here nikko.
How are you? Today is biopsy results? Keep praying for you.
Been up for a few hours, cleaning, folding, now sitting here thinking. Scary thought LOL
JE

and why arent you counseling with the harleys?

I have suggested, and left it there. I am in an I DONT CARE mode right now. Had a bad day heck it happens, and instead of supporting me, he gets all depressed to. He has the codependant book. Read the intro. thinks it is for me?
Is it?
I am waiting regardless on couseling with the harleys. I gave my notice at work, and want to redo finances. We are waiting on Income taxes, when they come in and the money is there, I will broach the subject again with FWH.
Been to MC once and I am quite leary also. I am dragging my feet too. It is both of us, but I take responsibility for my part. I want to be a SAHM for once, I am maybe being selfish, that is a first. But this means so much to me. DS is 17, 1 year left with him in the home. Empty nest thing maybe?? I dont know.
JE

i just beat the ****** out of your hubbyy----please dont make me start on you too....lol. do the harleys.....i did....there is no better. please do this....actually let him do it....you just care for you at the moment.

hubby is not gonna like me soon.....he is exactly like my hubby---i see all the tactics and misdirections and lol's to avoid.....and the "its still all about me"---he isnt fooling me a bit je---this is gonna take a strong person like the harleys to guide you and him through it....there is no magic bullet.....when your hubby finally suggests doing counseling....do it with the harleys. find a way.

I will. I do not see him calling and wanting to but I will for sure if he does that.
I am caring for me right now. I just took a bubble bath, with jets in tub. I feel great. I am going to buy a tanning package this afternoon. I know I am SAD type of person, and last year right after dday I did tan. Not the dark type, just a shade darker than my fish belly white colorand it worked well for me. I am also dieting, but only exercise is Physical therapy for now, per MD and PT. I go to orthopedic surgeon at 245 today, then tanning package to kick these blues. Meds dont work but tanning does.
I am working hard not to try to "fix" him and let him own his chit. I know I used to be a co-dependant or am a recovering one...lol.. but I will beat that. I am worthy and I want and need more. I just dont want to be an its ALL about me kinda person, that is a line I dont think I could ever cross, or ever want to.
Thank you nikko. I think in time he will hear and start to act. I just hope for me it wont be a day late and a dollar short.
JE

Well he heard you nikko and now his knee jerk reaction is to tuck tail and hide. He told me a little about the post, not much, but that he needs to take a week off or so from the boards. I asked him if he thought that is was true what you said to him, and he said yes. He does not want to do counseling either. He never has wanted to, and we have ended up argueing over that, so I withdrew. It was impossible to POJA that one. He went once and doesnt want to go again.
However, you did reach him, which is more than I can say I do most of the time. I had him read a post that sort of sums up how I feel right now. It was not my post so I knew he would read it. He did and immediately said it was ok if I wanted to D. I asked about OW and if he would call her if we went that way. He said probably. That hurt, but I asked for it.
I know that NC has been since Nov. of 2004, but could he still be withdrawing. Or is this a serial cheater thing? Or am I reading way to much into it.
He was open and honest about something he read from every mans battle. He fits in with it. He sees a nice looking womand and undresses her in his mind, then later if having SF may even think about having SF with that person instead of me. This is his thinking at times. I as a woman do not understand it, but it is what he does. Weird.
I made dinner for kids, smells great. Off for a little while to eat. Chat with you soon.
JE

well i posted to him again...ask him to read it before he runs....lol. god he is just like hubby....i think we need more help with him than just me...i wonder if jen and faith would come and try to be softer against my brutal honesty....lol

he can do this and so can you...hang in there and protect yourself....god a bubblebath with jets....less than a month to go for that for me!!!lol---im gonna live in that tub!!!

I am hanging nikko. Hanging tight but my grip keeps getting weak at times and I need to tighten up on it. Each time it takes more and more to tighten it though. I just need to be stronger. I will be. I can do this. For how long, no gaurantees but will fight as long as I possibly can without harming myself in the process.
JE

when ya get week....look over to your left...i am right there next to you....as are sooooo many others. counseling with harley should be a priority.....lets work on that. do what you need to for you to be able to hang on. i gave up soooo many times....but was never quite done.lol i knew he was in there somewhere....i just needed to coax him out of his cave...lol

I looked at the Kubler-Ross stages of grief again today. Did it when I went over abuse issues that were running my life, and now 6 months later I read it again, to put my stages in perspective. It has helped me before to know that I am on the money with my grief process.
With respects to the A I am grieving the loss of many things all at once, as many of us are doing also. Here are my losses as they pertain to me:
Loss of trust in him and myself
Loss of a dream, the vows I took seriously
Loss of respect for him
Loss of the committment
Loss of the person I once loved
Loss of stability
Loss of hope

These are most of what I call the casualities of his choices. I have gone through the stages or most of them for many of these things.
Denial- I have denied, joked, laughed when I should cry, etc.
Anger- not so sure I have finished here or not. I have been angry, still get frustrated at times. Normal though I think
Bargaining- I think that I come back here alot in this grief process. Why? I still hold on once and a while to the old thought process "If I was a better wife/person.." I fluctuate back here when I feel rejected by him. Like this morning, I wanted to make this morning a good morning for him and me. I thought that by waking him up, with touches, hugs, smiles and kissing, that it may start the day off right for him and I. Well that may have been my unreal expectations, and in the process I got hurt. However, I am ok with that. I wanted to show how much I care and want to work together on this, as a team, to recommit and put even more effort to "make him love me". I cant make him love me, I know this, yet I still bargain with myself for that.
Depression- I am here alot. Not depression in a sense of impending doom, just that I am mourning what was there and now gone. I am so saddened that that marriage, the hopes, the dreams, are a thing of the past. I am surrending to this grief. I realize that it is gone, nothing I do or say can bring that back and it hurts. Somedays it hurts like heck and other days it is just a dull ache, but it still does hurt.
Acceptance-This is the stage I am having problems with I guess. I have accepted peices of the losses but not all the losses have been accepted. I think that my fears may be inhibiting this part. In accepting I know that I must and partially have accepted that I cannot change him. I know that I cannot make this M work alone. I have accepted my parts in this, I also have accepted that I am who I am. I am a wonderful, intelligent, kind, strong, compassionate, and thoughtful person. I am having the hardest part accepting the loss of the dreams and hopes for the future.
In those dreams and hopes came in my mind everything balled into one. I had dreamed of our life together, raising our children to become as great as they could be, growing old together, going on cruises, just being able to sit together holding hands and being happy, being together as one. I had hopes of the love and committment to each other being a bond that time could not break, no one and nothing could interfere with. That is the part of acceptance I am having a hard time with, and I keep going back to anger, even denial maybe, and working to depression, but not accepting fully. In accepting this, I fear that what little there is left between us will be gone. If I let go, and feel free to let go, will he come back to me? But I think like the stages say, that I do accept the loss for the most part, and with that loss goes the maybe unrealistic hope that I have been holding on to.

Nikko,
I am not going to give up. I havent yet, I just am going through these stages and sometimes all of them at once in my mind. I know he has the potential to be a kind, caring, considerate, compassionate, strong, loveable person. I know that person is within him, but he does not seem to see that person. I see him stuck in the denial phase of grief. In my humble opinion, he has not gone through the stages of the loss of the OW, let alone the loss of the M that was, and the me that is no more. In my past, I would try to "fix" it for him, attempt to make him see what is in front of his eyes, and even at times try to make him do what I thought was right. I cannot and will not be that person, and I know he is grieving that too. But this is a path he must chose to take. I see him making changes for me, to make me happy, to make me want to love him. That is so off kilter, yes we strive to enrich each others lives, and do things we want to do to build the love and trust, but we do it for our benefit also. When I went up this morning to wake him, it was not just to make him happy, it was also a way for me to show him my continued committment to not be the person I was. I was trying to show him that I have changed, I want to love him, I want to chose him. The rejection from him hit me in the gut, but I do accept that regardless of the rejection I am still a good person, and a work in progress. So instead of sulking and getting angry I soothed myself. A big step for me. And I am better for it. It however is with soothing and loving myself that I find at times our R is being hindered. Why? I dont know or understand yet. I may in time or may not.
I feel weird today as you can probably tell. Like a weight has been lifted off my chest. I think I want to change my signature line and maybe my screen name too. I dont fit with either of them anymore.
JE

So glad about your revelation...however, if you change your screen-name, let us know, k?
NEVER GIVE UP! Just try to remember that if you do, they will get together, and you'll feel as if you just handed him over to her. SCREW THAT! There will be no handing-over-of-anyone's-husbands around here! Can I get an AMEN!

AMEN monica.
I once told her on the phone that she could have him served on a silver platter, this was way before MB
Now I have changed my mind, I will keep him
I will not give up. I am a Mainer and we dont give up without a big fight..LOL
JE

morning je---just popping in to check on you.
im a bit tired and really to lazy to go back and re-read to find out....so im gonna ask...

has he read any of the books?

he really needs a plan.....

He has read the Harley books months ago. He is reading Every Mans Battle right now. He says he needs a few days to process all the info he recieved. He broke down and cried while we were eating lunch yesterday. So I am giving him a few days. I did chat a little with him, and admitted that down deep there is love for him, it is just way down and it scares me. This was after he told me there are times he wants a separation or D,, and that right now he is at his breaking point and ready to give up. Does that sound like he is ready?
JE

Sounds like withdrawls to me. He knows he loves and needs you, but no matter how he tries, he can't forget about OW. He chooses you, but still there is that part of him that he gave to her that he hasn't gotten back yet. In His Needs/Her Needs, Dr. Harley comments about the addiction, and how it may be a "forever" thing. Your FWH has probably accepted this, sort-of like an alchoholic accepts that he/she must abstain from ANY alchohol, or risk becoming all mixed up in it again. This may be a kind of grief your FWH is experiencing. This is more than likely a good thing, for it means he has given her up, and is re-affirming his commitment to you. Please have faith. Remember - NO HANDING OVER OF ONE'S HUSBAND, right?

Just typing and update, or lack there of. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
FWH has taken a break from MB for a little while. Not unusual in his scheme of things. May be another attempt to push it under the rug, or just to give his mind a break. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We went rollerskating together and out to dinner. We are not spending the minimum 15 hours a week together though. I know this is necessary and have stated that it is important for recovery, but even that basic concept is lacking. I have asked that he set his alarm for 9 am, so that we can spend time together in the morning. My mistake was to wake him up. That took away his choice in the working on the marriage. I have not done that since the last posted time, where my feelings got hurt. So since then, he has slept in each day until around 11am. Then he gets up and does a few chores, then does stuff for him and off to work. No time together at all on those mornings. I have been staying up till midnight to spend time with him. It is exhausting me. Any suggestions??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

We have had a chat this week about his needs again. He needed to hear that I do love him. According to him that gives him something to hold onto. So he has had that need met. I give him affection and attention. I am open and honest with him. I make time at midnight for him, sometimes going to sleep at 2 am or later, then getting up for work at 7am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
I see him make attempts, and I see him trying. I do not want to discourage, and I compliment whenever he does something for me. I thank him each time, and let him know that I enjoy the little notes, recreation that we do together, etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
On a side note, one of our twins and I chatted yesterday. She had many questions, and I answered them as best I could. She does not feel comfortable with her dad at all. He has damaged thier trust for a long time too. Way before dday, more like 3 years ago when the A started he became a bitter and angry man. He not only LBed and DJed me, but did it to each of the kids. They all were somewhat fearful of him. He never hit them physically, but was very mean and nasty at times. We all bore the brunt of his wrath. I would smooth it over most of the time, and make up for his short comings with them. I did things with them instead of with him, bad for the marriage for sure. Now though, it is not enough. She is hurt and angry with him and what he has done to our family unit. She does not want to express her feelings to him at all. This is not something I can "fix" nor should I. It just makes me so sad to see them hurting. Not only does the A make us BSs a casuality of "war" it also makes the kids one too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Example:
DD 15 used to idolize her dad. He walked on water in her eyes. FWH would belittle her, have AO's at least daily, make rude comments, etc. She would withdraw to her room and cry. DDs 14 would ask many questions, he would tell them to stop asking questions, complain about them to me in front of them. DS17 alway got the worst of his wrath. I will not give examples here but they are pretty bad. In FWHs choices, the A was not his only bad one. His relationship with all 4 kids is poor to say the least.
I think back to when he was there for them, and wish that could come back. That is one of the hardest things to think about in the old M, the bond he had with them that has been missing for so long. And with all this, kids in thier teens, time is running out quickly. Does this bond ever come back?

I am rambling on and on. Sorry, my mind is my worst enemy sometimes. Well I am off to watch a movie. Have a good night.
JE

i am reading....i just dont know what to say. i really do think he is doing little things but its the biggies that are really gonna start healing this. what i mean about biggies is counseling and discussing it with you. unfortunately he runs from them both. continue what your doing...maybe consider harley for yourself...he really helped me. then hubby joined later....hang in there. it does get better.

Well I am going to give another long winded update. This place has become a safe haven of sorts for me.
FWH and I chatted last night. Like others have said that I dont seem to get is be careful what you ask for. I asked him why he loved me, then clarified to ask him for specific changes in me and a how am I doing kinda thing. How is he feeling since taking almost a week off from MB and the info overload as he called it.
That was mistake number one for me. FWH tells me that he finds that he is wishy washy about the M. That at times he wants it to work and at times he wants a D. I then explain that the R process takes 100% of both partners to work, a give and take, each leaning on each other when needed. He tells me he is confused and not sure what he wants.
I lost it here and asked him why he waited until I told him I loved him and have been making huge strides in beginning to trust him. I could not stay here, I had to get out for my own sanity. I left at 2 this morning and came back at 6am because he begged me to come home. He was concerned that I was suicidal. Which I might add ticks me off. I am not the same person I was 10 months ago. I do LOVE myself, and my family. I have worked so hard to become a better, stronger person. I know I am and I am happy with that change.
He then tells me that he was being honest and open about his feelings. In the next breath he tells me he told me that because he thought that is what I wanted, for him to be the one to file for D. So how is that open and HONEST if you do something based on your perceptions of another persons feelings. I told him that if he wanted to know that answer then he should ask me, dont assume that I feel a certian way. I cannot know what he is feeling, his feelings are his own and mine are my own. Am I wrong?
I dont get this, I really dont. I have chosen to love him again and chosen to begin trusting him again. I CHOSE THIS!!
But I know that for myself and my needs I cant do this again. He also told me that it bothers him that I do things with the kids and friends and alone when he is at work. When he is home I spend all my time with him and the kids. I am quitting my job to be with him. He doesnt feel like I NEED him. I clearly told him I dont NEED you, I want you. Big difference in my mind. But with these changes that I have made and the suggestions from MBers here to get on with life, do things, find myself he finds it as pushing him away. I cant win!! I know we need to speak with the Harleys but he refuses.
I own my part in all this mess. I have apologized and apologized. I told him how sorry I was that I lost my way and love for him after dday, and that I was afraid to love him and let him back in. I keep feeling hurt and sad. I do love this man with all my heart, but each time this happens my heart breaks over and over. I just cant do it again. What am I doing wrong? What else can I do? I do try to work with him, I ask him all the time how he is feeling, what is bothering him, and he shuts me out and pushes me away. Is there more or some other way to do this?
JE

Well, that's a surprise. Maybe HE has intimacy issues. I don't think you are doing anything wrong, just keep taking care of yourself.

JE,

I am very disappointed to hear this. I don't think it is YOUR efforts that are the problem either. If he is wishy washy about staying in the marriage and he needs you to focus on him to the extent that you quit your job, I think he does have intimacy issues and needs to be in control of things.

I hate the word control, it is sooo over used, but I really think you should step back and let him make this marriage what it should be. IF he won't or cannot, then perhaps the right way is the way out.

I think you both have to earn a divorce, but by the same time you both have to earn a good marriage as well. There is no free lunch or marriage for that matter. I think you need to address your issues and become very comfortable with yourself. It is job to start to rebuild this marriage. You are also right that NEEDING someone is NOT the basis of a good marriage. Loving someone, enjoying the presence of someone, wanting to be with someone IS the basis of a good long term marriage.

If he is playing games and trying to tell you what HE thinks you want to hear, then he does NOT get it. I know he does not like to be told what to do based on his responses on this site. Nor does he seem to understand the concept of a team. I am not sure what the problem is/was, but let him sort it out. Are you sure quiting your job is the right thing to do right now?

Must go.

God Bless,

JL