FH:

I, 2, thought the advice that they seek only "Christian" help was odd.

Remember? Just a 2ple days ago you gave me some terrific "non-Christian" (really, not exclusively Christian) suggestions that I am giving some serious thought 2 - and for that I continue 2 thank you.

So, see? Even YOU, not a marriage counseling professional, can offer helpful advice 2 "believers" and "non-believers" alike, if you put your mind 2 it. Why can't a secular professional do the same?

"endures4ever - as I said, stick with Christian advisors as the "seculars" deny Christ, let alone godly advice for those who are dealing with sin."

As a "secular", I deny that I deny Christ. I also hereby reject the notion that I am unable 2 offer "godly advice" 2 others dealing with issues of sin.

-ol' 2long

"Folks like WAT are going to relish this scenario because of the disrepute it brings on the name of Christ and Christian behavior."

Well, I'm not WAT, and won't speak for him. But I'm often lumped - by you - in2 the "folks like WAT" category, so I will cheerfully speak for myself about this remark:

Nonsense. Nobody who cares about their fellow humans, their integrity and spiri2al beliefs, would "relish" a horrible si2ation like this.

I think you're being unecessarily offensive. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

-ol' 2long

And some people think priests should marry...

2Long and WAT,

What FH is really dealing with here is that there is a church involved here. This is a pastor's wife who has done this. this is bigger than just a marriage. As such, this Christian church needs to deal with these issues outlined by God. If God says to do it one way...but mankind thinks it should be done another...the church is mandated to follow God's.

So, what FH is saying holds true. Christian church issues should be handled by Christians, just as I would not begin to offer my advice to someone in a Muslim church on how to handle church issues.

While the generic truthes can be found in and out of the church, the issues confronting this church need to be confronted as outlined by God through His word. Anything that is different from that, should be ignored by those members and church elders.

This pastor has a serious problem, one which God will hold him responsible for. Not only is he responsible for his marriage...but he is responsible for his church members. Those members are commanded by God to submit to that pastor, just as a wife is commanded to submit to her husband, or an employee is commanded to submit to his employer. If this pastor knwos about this and doesnt do what God has commanded in dealing with his wife and this guy, then God will hold this pastor responsible for the chaos that will ensue in that church. People will be led away from Christ or from making the decision for Christ, should this not be dealt with.

The church is a legal entity according to God. It has its own laws, as expressed by God. It has a right and duty to uphold those laws and punish those that break them. This pastor needs to step forward. If he doesnt know, then the people that do need to come to him (and the church elders) and get them up to speed. The elders will need to assist the pastor and help him in his time of need. They will also need to help him continue to follow the Lord in what he does...even when he doesnt feel like doing so.

Anyway, this is a church issue. Yes, the basic infidelity marriage issues apply, and we can all help with that. But when it comes to how to deal with this in the church, who to tell, how to confront, what measures to take...that has already been provided in the Bible. Which means no advice from any of us is really necessary on those matters. They are to do what is commanded.

In His arms.

I think from a Christian perspective, FH may be jumping up to protect the church from a direct assault, rather than just a particular family. It serves Satan well to see a pastor fail in his faith. If you have doubts about this, I might reference the damage caused to RWS (runningwithscissors, whose wife pulled a similair stunt).

As for me, I look at the outside perspective (secular) and yes, you are outside, there is no middle ground, you are either a Christian or your not. To not accept Christ IS TO DENY HIM. Yep, that's the way of it. Not my rules, HIS. Unfortunately, too many will find that out when it's too late. The outside perspective, and think you can't understand how this attack affects the church.

What you do is have 2 respected Elders/Deacons call to make an appointment to visit with the pastor and his wife. When they visit, they then tell the wife we know there is something you need to tell your husband. And they insist she is the one to tell. Usually the WS will tell under the pressure of sitting there with the Elders/Deacons, plus they want someone for defense while they tell. By having her tell they are not repeating gossip and it comes straight from her.

Mortarman:

I don't disagree with what you've said, summarized beautifully here:

"Anyway, this is a church issue. Yes, the basic infidelity marriage issues apply, and we can all help with that."

RookKev:

"To not accept Christ IS TO DENY HIM. Yep, that's the way of it. Not my rules, HIS."

Not my rules either. Not the "way of it", either.

-ol' 2long

MM - I appreciate your attempt to explain why churchs and church affairs are different and "special."

But it could be that I am incapable of seeing such differences in that, being secular, I have no protective biases. I have no reason to defend or soft pedal churchs > they're the same as any other organization when it comes to fighting affairs except there's the conveniently built-in rules against them. Further, I have a distinct distaste for hypocrisy.

That said, I'll go back and look, but I don't recall any specific special steps or considerations in Plan A, Plan B, exposure, etc. in the MB guidance for dealing with these type cases.

I have to say that your reasoning sounds strangely like the defense offered up by Catholics for the problems having to do with long standing pedophilia. "Trust us, we'll deal with it."

Why be afraid of the truth? Why shield anyone from the consequences of their decisions? Because it might upset the faith of the congregation? Pretty shallow faith.

Maybe we're in violent agreement. What advice did I or others offer that, although from a secular perspective, was "wrong" for the church setting?

And since FH doesn't want to answer my sincere questions I posted above, perhaps you'll take a shot at it?

In the meantime, I will continue to offer advice from a human perspective. My suspicion, since I follow the Golden Rule, is that my advice just happens to comport pretty much with "Christian" or other faith's teachings since, when you boil it all down, the human interaction pieces are all in line with the Rule.

Respectively,
WAT

The issues between this man and his wife are not special. They are just like every other affair! The things that are special are the issues that confront the church because of this. And those issues, non-Christians really cannot help with.


But you do. You have a secular bias. We all have biases! I love it when a journalist puts "unbiased" in front of the name "journalist." There is no such thing!


As almost all organizations do. But again, it would be hard for me to counsel someone in Russia in how to deal with something there if I dont know the laws of Russia and I am not familiar with what those laws say and mean.


As do I! As does God. But we are all guilty of hypocrisy in one form or another, arent we? In this case, I dont want to see hypocrisy cause a problem in the body of believers. And there is a God-mandated way of dealing with that. If they want to do it a different way...then they cant really call themselves Christians and followers of God. It is THAT hypocrisy that would be bad!


MB doesnt deal with churches or organizations. It deals with specific marriages. The issue on thsi thread is what to do in regards to this church. MB doesnt have a dog in that fight.


Huh? Believe me, the church doesnt need help from outside the church. The Catholic Church's problems are because of huge mistakes they have been making. If they had followed Scripture, they wouldnt be in this mess. But what they dont need is outside help. God can take care of the church issues just fine!


Be afraid of it? On the contrary, what I am asking and FH is asking is to stick to the truth. And the truth is God mandates the church to do specific things in these instances.


Who is asking to shield anyone from anything? If you had read the Scripture that outlines what to do, it is very specific on levels of confrontation by the church. Yes, inside the marriage, we all know what the principles are and what to do. But as a church, the church cannot condone this one bit! And thus, it must do what God says in dealing with it. The offender must be confronted by the person(s0 they have offended. if they turn back, then the church is done with it. If they dont, then the church sends out elders to witness this and get testimony. Then, that person is brought before the church. If still unrepentent, then that person is removed from the church and is treated by the church (and God) as if they are unbelievers. Plain and simple. The issue is to make this pastor aware that he has to follow these rules. If he cant, he needs to step down and the church must go forward with prosecuting his wife. My wife was treated this way by our church. When she wouldnt stop her adultery, I took her before the church and she was declared spiritually dead. And God recognized that and affirmed that as He has said He would in Scripture. Again, these are the rules He has put out for Christians. As Christians, we really have no choice but to comply...that is unless we want to be judged by God. And also be seen as hypocrites!


Doesnt upset the faith of the congregation so much as it first off gives God a bad name and secondly, it does upset the faith of those that are considering their life given to Jesus. It causes them to stumble.


The advice on how the pastor deals with his wife was right on. The advice on how the pastor deals with his church and how the church deals with the pastor and his wife...well, that is the business of the church and any advice contrary to what God commands should be ignored. Shoot, if MB principles were against what God commands, they too should be ignored. If a Christians is who we say we are, then we follow a real God who wrote a real book. Which means if true, then we really should follow what He says. Or...then maybe we dont follow a real God?


Like I said, I have no problem with answering the questions. But I do know that I do not want my pastor to take any advice that is contrary to Scripture, as I would expect him to also not give any advice contrary to Scripture. If he did, I know at my church, he would be unemployed by the end of the day!


But Christian's arent called to follow the Golden Rule! Jesus changed that. We have a different commandment now. Christians should not be doing unto others as we want others to do unto us. We are commanded to do for others as Christ did for us. That is ENTIRELY different!

That's why Christians are told in Scripture not to follow worldly advice. Because the world say to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus commands us to love my brother as He has loved me. With God's kind of love. That is different. It is unheard of on this planet. No other religion or humanistic endeavor has ever even tried to approach loving each other as Jesus has loved us. First off, on ones own, it is impossible anyway because to love as Jesus did would require us to be equal to Jesus and be as powerful as Him. So, we are stuck with the Golden Rule...or, as a Christian, we have the ability to actually love this way because we are no longer just human. We are a new creation. We have Jesus inside of us. We have His power. We have His love. thus, I dont love my brother or sister as Jesus did because of anything I do, but because I allow Him to do it thru me. In that way, the loving things I do are in His name...not Mortarman's. He gets all the credit.

I understand what you are saying. And on the MB principles, your advice is correct. This husband needs to do the things that are outlined here in order to save his marriage and stop the affair. But as the pastor? He needs to stick with what God has commanded.

In His arms.

WAT, I'm going to say this just one more time. CHRISTIANS have voluntarily submitted their lives to CHRIST as both their SAVIOR and their LORD.

You don't understand that anymore than you understand that Jesus died for all mankind, but ONLY those who accept Him will be saved. WE, Christians, are NOT our own "masters." God is our sovereign master. While all of God's rules apply to everyone, just as the physical laws He created apply to all, NOT all will choose to accept the only provision HE has made by which we can be saved. Denying Christ does NOT mean that you will "die" now. But it does mean that you will die and be eternally separated from God after your physical death on earth.

As much as you don't want "Creationism" taught in schools, please keep your secular advice out of church and confine it to the Betrayed Spouses and Wayward Spouses who can use some of the "techniques" because of their universal application, such as No Contact. But do not presume to "advise" churches on how to be obedient to Scripture, because you reject both the Scripture and the Sovereignty of God.

2long, I'm not going to spar with you. This is the thread of a fellow Christian who is seeking help and advice.

Simply put, you are wrong, nonChristians who do not believe in SIN, as an act of willful disobedience to God's Sovereign commands, do NOT have a right to "advise" Christians in matters related to faith.

People who do NOT accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior DO DENY Christ. It IS that simple. There is no "middle road." A person is either FOR or AGAINST Christ, and Christ is the ONLY way God has provided for the salvation of our souls.

For the record, it was WAT who said that ONLY professionals should give advice, and when I asked for him to clarify that narrowmindedness, I got lambasted.

As for advice in general, if anything I said is useful or helpful to you, I thank God. God instituted marriage and the "Rules" of marriage according to God's purpose still apply regardless of one's belief or lack of belief in Him. With that respect, it does not matter if a Ship's Captain is a believer or an unbeliever, the "laws" established by God for the physical world apply to all. Both can observe and experience the physical world and apply the "laws of nature" equally. They can also choose to ignore those laws and try to do something contrary, but regardless of their "sincere belief," the true laws will be applied to them as well as to everyone else.

So I am not surprised, nor am I offended, by your statement that as an unbeliever you "thought the advice that they seek only "Christian" help was odd."

It WOULD appear "odd" to anyone who is NOT a surrendered Christian.

I'm sorry but I need to speak up on behalf of WAT. Endures4evr came to MB seeking advice and WAT gave MB advice. End of story. You can advise Endures to seek the counsel of her church but I don't feel you have a right to tell WAT to butt out on this forum. This is not the church's forum. And just for the record, I am a Christian who believes in God.

It isnt that FH is saying to WAT specifically to butt out. FH told Endures that he should seek Godly counsel in how to handle this church issue. endures did not ask how to take care of the pastor's marital issues specifically, but how the church (and Endures specifically) should handle this. And yes, in church matters, everyone that isnt a member should butt out. As I said, if a Muslim came on here and asked how to take care of this problem in his church, I would have no right to tell him how to do it...as I am not a Muslim. Sure, I could tell him how the MB principles work in saving that marriage. But in how the church should deal with it? None of my business.

God even commands Christians not to allow outside influences on His church. He has set up the rules and He means that we live by them. Pastors will be held to a very high standard for their churches. God is not playing around!

This thread wasnt about saving a marriage. MB advice applies to that. All here can help with that. It was about a Christian church doing what it should. And only Christians can help with that.

In His arms.

I agree, Shattered05.

"2long, I'm not going to spar with you."

And yet you do. Again.

"Simply put, you are wrong, nonChristians who do not believe in SIN, as an act of willful disobedience to God's Sovereign commands, do NOT have a right to "advise" Christians in matters related to faith."

1: I'm not wrong.
2: who says I don't "believe in" sin?
3: If you read my stuff again, you'll see that I agree that the original poster (who may or may not be a hit-and-run poster, and this story may or may not be real) should seek advice from the church about the matters related 2 their faith. I believe that includes this matter of infidelity. But the infidelity is ALSO a matter of general, even secular concern. And so I have as much right as YOU do, to advise the original poster about the subject.
4: The original poster has a brain, and can decide (indeed, has a responsibility 2 decide) which pieces of non-professional advice 2 consider and which 2 "reject" or "deny".

"It IS that simple."

No it's not.

"There is no "middle road.""

Perhaps, but there are many parallel roads.

-ol' 2long

Not to the Christian way. That is the narrow road going in an entirely different direction...with far less people walking on it.

I agree 2Long that the issues surrounding the marriage and infidelity are open to all for discussion. And all can help. FH even agreed with that.

What is non-negotiable for a Christian is making up their mind on whether advice concerning Godly issues should be God's advice or some other. The Christian has only ONE choice...and still be a Christian! Any other way is hypocrisy...and the way of the parallel paths.

In His arms.

Also 2Long, FH didnt say nonbelievers didnt believe in sin. He said:


That is different!

In His arms.

On the Christian way...

I'd just like to bring a side point into this. I'm not one to go running around claiming people have demons, etc. Having said that, many Christians should understand that there is a spirit of rebellion, adultry, lust and so forth behind most affairs no matter how they started.

What the pastor of this church allows into his family, will also be allowed in his congregation. Case in point; about eight years ago, my wife and I were attending a church in NC.

She had grown up there and I got saved through that pastor's ministry. A few years earlier, the pastor had an affair with his secretary. Once it became public knowledge, it split the church.

The pastor stepped down for about a year and a half and sat under the ministry of his pastor while his wife ran the church. They reconciled and he made public appologies.

Fast forward to about five years ago and it comes to light AGAIN, that he was having an affair with the music director's wife. One of my best friends.

This being the second affair, there really was no point in reconciliation and his wife divorced him. When all the dust had settled and it bacame known that the affair was going on for some time, it devestated this already frail church.

In final count, there were eight different families who had a husband or wife that was having an affair. It had become a disease that nobody knew about until it was too late.

The spirit that ran rampant through that church by what its leadership was doing and was allowing to happen, destroyed many lives and that church, that once did great things for that city, is now nothing more than a hollow shell with many disgruntled Christians in it.

For the sake of your church and the other families that are under the influence of this pastor and his adulterous wife, do something now.


FN

I'm at loss as to what everyone is battling over. I threw out the suggestion of the elders/deacons confronting the wife with the husband present so that the affair would be exposed. I think that fits well within MB principles. The person is confronted and the affair is exposed. The BS is made aware and knows what is taking place. Then the OM can be dealt with as well by someone visting him and holding him accountable.

I have been a deacon and have had to dismiss a pastor and his wife for adultry. It's not a pleasant thing to do. A church is like a family and it hurts the people and rips at them emotionally. Suddenly they have to deal with someone new who is going to lead them as their minister. The elders/deacons, ministers of the church all have someone new to follow. So it's wise to carefully consider one's actions and how to proceed. A person wouldn't walk into a family with all the children present and announce that the mother is having an affair, and you don't do that in a church either because there are young innocent Christians who will be impacted by such a statement. So proceed wisely, use Biblical sense, and follow as the Lord leads.

this is riduculous...

IT is NOT the minister that is having an affair..
it is his wife..

SHE is not the leader of the church..
she is a MEMBER..

marriage building principles are clear expose to the BS..
have the BS confront the WS
expose the affair to friends, family and place of work to expose the affair to the light of day..
and then plan A
and then plan b...

(put down the wooden sticks there will no burnings at the stake today people....)

this is an affair...
place of EMPLOYMENT OF BS makes this no more or NO less evil than any other affair..



this is MARRIAGEBUILDERS....
Not Christiansruleseveryone-elsedrools.com...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
any and all advice is to first start with the BS..
and move from there...

it's elementary
it's no different than any other torrid gross thing...

ARK^^