TO EVERYONE:
I did not see Janet today. This a.m. I called the house, and she had gone to her parents' home in the western part of the state because her mother had some kind of health emergency. Tomorrow, provided the blizzard doesn't bury us, I will try to get over to their house. I am NOT chickening out; this is very much on my 'to do' list to complete before the coming week is out. I work and so does Janet, but both of us are home in the evenings. I will let you know what happens. Say BIG prayers that she will listen.

WAT,
For the record, "conflict avoidance" is not a relationship.
FYI, I am going into Hospice Chaplancy. Working with elderly and terminally ill is something I do presently, but not as a minister. That's what the degree I'm working on is for.
The parishioners in my church, many of them, I've known for years. We're friends. My relationship with them is friendly, helpful, and supportive. This is a tough situation when one of the parishioners is a dear friend and is the WH with the pastor's wife.
I hope I've made things a little clearer.
LJ

Endures,

FWIW - (For what it's worth) It's easy to find yourself spending a lot of time defending yourself here. Many times the message you try to get across can be misunderstood strictly because of the medium itself. I've written pages of posts only to have someone with great intentions pick on one thing or misunderestand altogether. So, my advice would be to keep focusing on the task at hand, answer those posts you feel are important to the situation and keep bringing it before God and testing it with Scripture.

Hope your Sunday goes well. We are praying for you all.

S&C

My H met the OW places at work, gas station done it in the bathroom, had a friend with an apartment and would meet there once a week, but was always home on time, never suspected anything was wrong. This lasted for 9 months, probably would still be going on if the Ow and her H didn't go overseas. I just don't understand how and why people hurt the ones they SO CALL LOVE AND WANT TO BE WITH.

Endures - responding to this post:

First, I apologize if it feels like I was being harsher than I needed to be. Maybe I was, but it was out of frustration rather than any other motivatioon. The words you wrote here reminded me that I should have approached you more similarly to a new betrayed spouse (BS) coming here rather than as a witness.

In short, everything you describe is so, so, so typical of affairs in ANY setting.
Yep. And maybe counterintuitively, more so in a place where not only does everyone KNOW its wrong, but they KNOW its VERY, VERY WRONG! But this is conflict avoidance. FH will blast me for this, but perhaps in a church everyone expects that God will just take care of it and they need not intervene. Regardless, this is typical affair paralysis in any setting.

OR - as is typical - he's in denial. I really doubt he chose to ignore it. Very, very typical for BSs to react in denial. His denial may be supported by his faith that his wife "knows better" just because he IS a minister and this IS a church. Things like this don't happen in churches. Get my point?

I can see what you're saying very clearly - and its core feelings are again, very, very typical of the anxiety a BS feels when they don't know what to do.

Consider that if you lose a lot of friends because you revealed the truth, then they just do not understand that you are acting in everybody's best interest. They will be blaming you for something comitted by two others. You're not being "unfriendly", you're revealing secrecy that everybody knows is wrong. If they persist and continue to blame you, they are just not seeing. To those who say you should keep your mouth shut, what is their motivation? To continue to be participants in adultery? That's what they're doing. They're complicit in an affair.

It's typical of a new BS to be extremely afraid to tell the "other" BS that their spouse is in an affair. Why? "Because my husband/wife will get REAL mad." "He'll claim I'm invading his privacy!"

Hello? Privacy? You're cheating behind my back and you want privacy? We hear this all the time. See how silly it is? By exposing, a BS is not invading privacy, they're revealing secrecy!

Get mad! Dern tootin' he/she will! Why? Because their fantasy is being challenged and threatened.

We validate your initial hesitation to reveal the affair to the light of day. But you're taking the steps to do the right thing. Apparently, many others are experiencing your hesitation as well but they perhaps have not sought guidance.

If you follow through and do the right things, you may indeed be criticized and lose friends. But you will have done the right thing and you will have been freed from helping keep the secrets any further. Which "penalty" is worse?

Please read the links in my sig line below. These may provide more general information.

Endures4evr - this IS very difficult and it "may" split the church. It will, one way or the other, even if the people keep attending. It will "split" their faith and obedience to God.

Interestingly enough WAT said the following, so a brief aside to him and then back to your post:



WAT, it might surprise you, but that is exactly what I think and WHY I argue for, and support, obedience to God's commands. God says, "if you love me, you will obey my commands." It is NOT "passive," it is ACTIVE, both in choice and action. It is NOT complacent OR "conflict avoiding." We ARE "our brother's keeper" in matters of faith and obedience to God's commands, especially when a brother or sister in Christ has fallen prey to their sinful nature and the enticements of sin. Sin deceives. Plain and simple.




Endures4evr, this IS the hard part about it all for the church in general and the individual members in particular. I UNDERSTAND the feeling of "I'm just at a loss." It is one thing to give mental assent to God's commands, it is quite another to understand, embrace, and put into practice, STANDING for God regardless of what others might think of me. It is human nature to "fear" reactions of others that might disgree with us, or the reaction one might get from others when you take a STAND instead of being blown around with any "prevailing wind."

The "problem" you are facing now is THE most difficult one facing the Christian Church today.....liberalism versus fundamentalism. That is a huge topic, but perhaps if you want to discuss that I can find some time to get into it a little.

Bottom line....the difference is BELIEVING God's Word and DOING what God has said. When we start excusing and making "humanistic" exceptions, we get into trouble. THAT is precisely WHY Jesus warned the Churches in Revelation.
Churches need to return to their "first love," that is to Christ and God and NOT conform themselve more and more to "worldly thoughts and ideas" that supplant the Word of God.

This IS the sort of situation that often DOES split churches.

God bless.

Hi Broken--
I can't for the life of me understand it either. Sometimes I wonder if it's a need to be needed, if you know what I mean. They know--or at least some know--that their spouse is there and loves them, but they just have this crazy need to know that someone else wants them, or that they still have what it takes to attract someone else. It's a pretty lousy way to find out when you consider the hurt it causes.
It sounds pretty sleazy too. If these affairs are conducted wherever it's convenient, it sounds like, for the most part, it's all about sex.
Good luck to you. I hope your broken heart will mend soon.
LJ

FH - you STILL don't get it:


You'd agree that I'm the opposite of "fundamentalism", right?

And you'd also agree that I'm "humanistic", right?

In other words, I am eaten up with liberalism and humanism.

Then how come is it that I am here encouraging someone to do the right thing? I contradict your conclusion.

It's not lack of "fundamentalism" or infiltration of "humanism", it's knowing right from wrong and not shying away from sticking by it! No matter the source that defines "right" and "wrong", it comes down to individual ethics and integrity.

Your "godlessness equates to hedonism" argument just doesn't hold up. This story screams the opposite conclusion!!

See the light, drop the argument, and you and I won't have to debate any further.

FH -


Then why to you protest SO MUCH when I suggest that SOME brother in this congregation grab the bull by the horns and shake it! Because there's a process to follow that I don't understand? OK, how long should these folks wait? Or is it because you abhor the notion that a heathen like me can know what has to be done?

****************************

Endures - Again, I doubt the minister is ignoring the problem. Assume this and go to him. Expect resistence for the reasons I provided earlier.

If he really IS ignoring it, you've got WAY bigger problems and you'll need to go over his head - this is a neutral, organizational chain of command logic. If there's a specific process for doing this in the church heirarchy, by all means follow it. But my suspicion is that either this "process" isn't working or folks aren't following it for this problem to have persisted so long.

WAT

Wat,
I called Janet about an hour ago and will be visiting her tomorrow after work. If work is cancelled (we are in the midst of a big nor'easter), I'll get over to see her earlier. I just told her I was going to return her pie plate and I had some interesting reading material I wanted to share with her. I didn't give any indication what I wanted to talk about or what the reading material was about because I didn't want her to raise suspicion in Luke.

I checked out your links and if it weren't for the clarifications of the initials I've gotten here, I wouldn't understand what in ****** all the OP and WW and WH, blah, blah, were all about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Janet won't have a clue, so I'll have to include a legend of initials for her to use to decipher them all! Aside from that, I think she'll find some comfort in reading the material. Maybe she'll join the site and get further support. I will recommend it. She doesn't have a PC, but has one at work with internet access.
Thanks for your help--
LJ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We were posting at the same time.

I'm in the same storm here outside of DC. Got to go shovel in a minute.

Please consider printing out some of the basic MB guidance about infidelity available on the main site. I think there's a link to "infidelity" and you can browse thru there and find some "entry level" stuff. That may be more beneficial to her initially than my links provide. Nonetheless, you may find helpful info regarding exposure in the 101 link.

Also, please consider obtaining a copy of "Surviving An Affair" by Harley available via the bookstore on this site - or just about any on-line bookseller. All the while, be thinking about how to "spread the word" amongst the church folks. Maybe 100 or so copies of SAA would help? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just slip in early Sunday morning and put them in the pews? Heck, I'd even donate my dog eared copy for the cause.

WAT

Hi WAT--
I just shoveled a path for my doggie, whose eyes were watering to get outside! Luckily the snow is light.
Janet came home last night on the edge of this storm. Her mother is in the hospital, but it's not a serious illness such as a heart attack or stroke.

I wish I could bring someone with me to talk with her. I af really feeling anxious. I was telling my husband about my plan to go and talk to her, and he's of the opinion that I should leave it to someone not emotionally tied to the situation. (I can't stop crying!) He says that because I'm friends with Luke and Janet, and am close to so many in the church, I'll end up hurt too. He doesn't want to go with me. (Big surprise there! He hates any kind of confrontation or emotional scene. Is that a 'man' thing?)
I told him I felt I should go because I could perhaps lend better support than someone who is not personally connected.
All these months of colluding and feeling terrible about it, all the discussions I've had with various folks about their observations, the talk I had with the minister (that went nowhere), biting my tongue to keep from yelling at dumb bell Luke because I didn't want to jeopardize our friendship (he's like the brother I never had!), is all being funneled down to this talk I'll have with Janet. I feel like the grim reaper.
You know what'll happen. I'll open my mouth to say, 'I want to talk with you about. . .' and I'll burst out crying. I'll be a pathetic train wreck. What do I do if that happens?
WAT, what you said earlier really made sense, though. The fantasy thing. that IS what it is! He told his best friend 'she is the love of my life. She's the best thing that's ever happened to me.' Okay, so he wasn't happy before. He and Janet sleep separately. But Kathy's agenda. . .she's done this before. Same M.O. Luke came to church unshaven one Sun. last month, and made a beeline for her classroom (which is partially partitioned; the other half is where the choir assembles), and my husband, who's in the choir, said it looked like he was pleading with her as they talked in the corner. Sheesh! Welcome to Fantasy Island! Where's little Tattoo!
I'm rambling. I think I'll chill out for a while. Thanks for all your words of wisdom! I appreciate the support and prayers. Keep talking!
LJ

I (we) really do validate your anxiety. This is not easy and we know it.


Try thinking of it as being the best friend he's ever had! Be the "sister" he desperately needs!

Think long range - this is not unlike confronting an alcoholic. It is an addiction. One step backwards to take MANY steps forward.

Does this help?

You are being the wise and strong one - not willing to let this fester any longer. It's very hard to be the lone voice of reason in the face of maintaining the status quo.

I don't think there's a gender distinction here, but I'm a guy!

Infidelity in general doesn't seemt to have very many gender specific characteristics. Some, but not many. It's easier for men to have a one night stand. Women seem to get sucked in emotionally first, which is typically harder to kick than a sexual thing alone.

Do not let anybody try to defend a non-sexual affair. Even without sex taking place, what you've described is a betrayal of trust. It's THIS betrayal that hurts the most.

WAT

Endures, your thread has taken a detour of your original question. I want to apologize to you if anything I said yesterday offended you. (I am sure it did.) I will admit I was bothered (still am) that a Christian woman wanted to know where lovers go and what they do when they are together.

In your earlier post you said that half of the town was talking about Luke and Kathy and their illicit tryst. That would be a LOT of people. How big is your town? I imagine they are loving this juicy gossip.

Ironically, my pastor's sermon today was about GOSSIP and how WRONG it is to repeat anything anyone says to us about another member of our church. (Or anyone for that matter.)

I have just this one question for you, Endures. Have you told ANYONE (other than your husband) about what you HEARD about Luke and Kathy's affair? (You don't have to answer if you don't want to.) My pastor said the ONLY person that it should be talked with is the person (or persons) that are being talked ABOUT.

And yes, it is a guy thing. I am VERY NON-confrontational. Unlike my REFORMED WW...she is not at all afraid to get involved in others affairs!!!

I didn't know until reading here at Marriage Board that we were even SUPPOSE to tell someone if we had heard rumors about their WS. Perhaps you didn't realize this either?

Hi WAT
Yes, it helps to think of it as an addiction. I can see how the two parallel. It reminds me, in a way, of when you (the collective) first meet someone and become infatuated with them. You think they're the best thing since toilet paper. Then once the 'honeymoon' wears off, you can see their faults and their humanity. Then you decide if you love them in spite of those things, and if so, you continue building a healthy relationship (if you're both unmarried, of course!) But with an affair, it's almost as though the honeymoon period never ends. Or does it? I guess some affairs last years and years. But I read the piece on Surviving Infidelity, and it says the average affair lasts a couple of years or something. Maybe because they don't get to spend a lot of time together that the relationship becomes as you say, a fantasy. It's apart from 'real life.' Hmmm. You'd think they'd get tired of all the sneaking around and having sex in a car (or whatever), and just get a darned divorce and be done with it. Why don't they?
When I think about Luke and Kathy as individuals, I'm amazed that they would actually take things as far as they did. Luke is kind of like a 'Forrest Gump' (only with a normal intelligence!) He's quite conservative, old fashioned, has never touched a drop of alcohol--literally--in his life, and has always been very shy. Kathy is very savvy, worldy-wise, liberal, and drinks imported beer out of the bottle! She's vivacious as well as extremely sexual and flirtatious. Maybe that's what drew him in. Who knows? No wonder he thinks she's the best thing ever! I'm sure she is [/b] in some [/b] things! Holy mackeral!
I'm going to finish reading what you suggested in your other post. I know it will be helpful to Janet. Thanks!
LJ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ironically, celt - that advice is exactly wrong as shown by Endures story.

Sounds like a built-in "sweep it under the rug" mechanism. "Whatever you do, don't shine the light of day on that pedophile!" (Applying this advice to the Catholic church problem.)

That said, gossip is one thing. Unsubstantiated gossip is wrong. But as Endures story shows, failing to repeat known, substantiated facts about the church member's affair has prolonged the problem.

Let me ask you this: Is there gossip going around about your Pastor or maybe his wife, Hmmmmmmmm? Why would your Pastor give such a sermon? Think about it.

WAT

And this is completely wrong headed advice. The VICTIMS, of course, must be told in addition to the individuals. If a bank robber robs a bank, you don't keep his robbery a secret from the bank, do you? And then if the individuals do not STOP the adultery, it is exposed to the entire church according to biblical principles.



huh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

You might be on to something.....hmmmmmm.....

Seriously, there is a difference between engaging in gossip about someone and going and stating facts. But on the other hand, sometimes even gossip can help. Say John finds out about Kathy's and Lukes A, but has no guts to go and confront them, and keeps it to himself, A does not get exposed. BUt if John gossips, and tells our friend here, and she does have the guts to expose (I hope she does it soon)....then the gossip actually helped in this case, since had John not gossiped, no A would get exposed.........

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Celt,
Of course I was exaggerating when I said half the town knew. This is a growing New England college town that years ago was more considered a farming community. There used to be several farms in the town, and now Luke's farm, established by his grandparents, is one of three left. However, there's a core population of "townies" in the community, and they are the ones that talk. Some of the folks in the church are life-long residents, and I imagine if they share their observations with another townie, pretty soon word flies around like crazy. I have not discussed this situation with parishioners except when they've spoken to me about it. But not in a gossipy manner such as "did you hear..." and "wait 'til I tell you..." I spoke to the deacons' chairperson confidentially (who told me to leave it alone and let God handle it), and I spoke to the minister.
In terms of asking about what those having affairs do and is it always about [sex] lovemaking, I should have chosen my words more carefully. I wasn't trying to get my rocks off on juicy details if that's what you're alluding to. I just want to understand how an affair is conducted, is there intimate talk and planning about the future, what's the difference between when the affair starts and when it ends, etc. Just trying to understand. I hope that answers your question satisfactorily because that's all I can say. I don't think my being Christian makes my question out of line or inappropriate. Worded inappropriately perhaps, but not off-base, in my opinion.
Thanks for asking.
LJ

Endures - as you read you will learn that affairs are surprisingly similar. Affairees act SO similar that it's downright spooky. Right down to the dialogue, it's like a disease from the same virus. We joke here that what a WS (wayward spouse) says to his/her BS is "right out of the WS script."

So, you will read all about Luke and Kathy, only the names have been changed.

It's all about the thrill and the forbidden fruit. Searching for what they don't have in their marriage. A fantasy, a bubble that usually bursts when the thrill wears off, or when it becomes too uncomfortable to carry on.

This is wear exposure comes in. Let's call it what it is > exposure is delivery of shame. Burst the bubble and express ridicule. Make it too uncomfortable to continue.

This brings up the fine line between exposing for "medicinal" purposes vs exposing for revenge or intentional hurt. Invaribly the affairees feel exposure as revenge - an attack on their privacy. Even with 100% purity of the exposure to solely be for ending the affair, they will feel it as hurting and vengeful - especially if the exposer is a betrayed spouse. This is where you have an advantage. You don't have a dog in the fight per se. (We know you do for the church's sake - but you're "neutral" since you're not a betrayed spouse.)

It so happens that exposure frequently can take place in small doses - from the inside out. We usually recommend exposing in expanding concentric circles to minimize the down side that exposure can bring. Recovery can be challenged if too much "shame" has been spread. Others suggest a scorched earth approach - everything up to taking out a billboard ad.

In your case, you've described that a lot of people know. Exposure - of sorts - has been occuring already. But until the affairees know that their spouses (and anyone else influential to them) know, the benefit of exposure hasn't been realized. Until then the exposure is wasted. The affairees HAVE to know that they've been discoverred so that shame can set in.

Make sense?

So, all you have to do is light the fuse to the BSs to start. It could be that everyone else will then breathe a sigh of relief that you did the "dirty" work. In actuality, keeping the news from the BSs was the dirty work and you're applying the disinfectant - truth.

WAT
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Time will tell whether time was well spent.

EXACTLY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Daisy