Endures - please re-read what you wrote here:
Exactly what kind of relationship would that be?

Conflict avoidance?

I do not want to get into another ugly Holy War.

But why doesn't SOMEBODY talk to SOMEBODY in the church heirarchy? Is it because the church heirarchy already knows and they're waiting for divine intervention?

If this story is as you portray, this is a cancer on your church that has matastisized throughout its body.

As an outsider looking in, assuming your story is true, you're providing a perfect story for those who may choose to mock your faith. Can you not see this? You're a seminarian?

What am I missing here? Am I the only one who can see this because I'm not a Christian and don't have any reason to "protect" this church?

I'm being as sincere as I can be. I am not mocking you - if I wanted to I certainly could. I'm interested in the individuals involved getting to the next step in attacking the affair. THAT step is shining the light of day on it.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant - and not only for affairs.

Respectively,
WAT

celt06 - got your nose out of joint? Sorry about that(sincerely), but a woman has come here with a VERY difficult problem for everyone involved. I, like you, have SEEN people who come on here claiming it's "someone else," when in fact THEY are person involved in the affair. To ME, this doesn not have the "feel" of one of those. Is it possible? Yes.

Until then, YOUR confusion and your nose is secondary to attempting to help her with advice from the perspective of what she should do and what is in concert with Scripture, God's word.

You want to attack me for disagreeing with you over your ATTACK on her, then be my guest. You want civility toward yourself, then show civility toward others.

To put it into the context of my line of work, I, me, myself get "incensed" and "disgusted" when I see how some elderly clients get taken advantage of by previous agents who had more of the "commission" in mind than "doing what is best for the client." I don't have to BE those people to be disgusted with THEIR behavior, nor, IMHO, is my "disgust" a sin.

But in the final analysis, YOU could be right. Endures4evr "could" be the Pastor's wife (or a Pastor's wife) AND be the adultress (or the Adulterous Wife). We don't know any more than is revealed here through the postings of those who choose, for whatever reason, to post.

IF I am wrong, I doubt that you will find anything that I have written that a "hiding WS" could use to construe APPROVAL of an affair, much less "support" for continuing an affair.

Hence my earlier comment that you DO NOT allow an affair to "run it's course" and "remain silent" while it is doing so. You DO NOT allow someone to run around waving a gun until they kill someone, you do what you can to END the situation before it escalates out of control.

Now YOU tell ME where your accusations (valid to ask about) that have been answered (by Endures who says NO it's not her) and your attacks on me serve any useful purpose besides sidetracking help from a woman who NEEDS help regardless of our opinion as to who or who might not be THE Wayward Spouse in this matter?


Give me a break! I didn't "SNUB" you. I called you to "task" to apply your own accusation of "UnChrist-like" behavior to someone who is "disgusted" by the sin and deception being perpetrated by the wife of the Pastor, with a lifelong friend who does NOT appear to be very "strong willed" himself. I asked you if "hate the sin, but love the person who is sinning" is "unChristlike" and that to SAY or SHOW disgust is somehow "UnChristlike?" Since you dragged the name of Christ into your accusation, I asked you to apply your "standard" to Christ himself and answer the question for us.

But your response is to accuse ME of "snubbing" you instead of answering the question. I am getting tired of this "Feel Good" "Christian liberalism" that denies the real disgusting nature of SIN to both God and to those of us who understand just how bad sin is.....bad enough to cost the life of Christ. HOW can one, surrendered to Christ, NOT be disgusted with sin? I take it from your post to Endures that you are NOT "disgusted with sin?" Is that the impression you MEANT to convey in your reference to it being "unChristlike?"

Christians, In My Humble Opinion, need to wake up and stop trying to conform their faith to the world and it's "acceptance" of all behavior as just, "I'm okay, you're okay." God sets the Standard, and we don't get to change it. We get to follow it. We get to stand for it.

There is a huge difference between "snubbing" someone and "confronting sin" and in using Scripture for "all teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness." If you don't see the difference, I will pray for you.

If someone disagrees with my advice and wants me to offer reasons WHY I opined a certain way, I try to GIVE that reasoning. I do NOT attack the messenger, per se, but I "attack" the message. I EXPECT others to be able to "defend" their opinion as well. If not, then the opinion is likely "emotion driven" and not centered in truth and fact. Now, very few people like to be "disagreed with," but that is the nature of discourse. So if people get "offended" when someone disagrees with them, the "problem" is the "offended one's problem" and not the person engaging in sincere, but opposing, discussion with them. If the "viewpoint, the standards, the ideas" that are "opposed," do NOT reflect "Christ-likeness," then they NEED to be opposed AND stated WHY they are opposed. Not like the terrorists who want to KILL any PERSON who dares to say or do anything (like a cartoon) that they think is "offensive" to them.

"Thou Shalt NOT....." is quite clear, as is God's response to sin and adultery.

Call me a "bull in a china shop" if you want to, but SIN disgusts me. It's a consequence of "living in denial" for 6 years and LEARNING the "hard way."

God bless.

First off, Celt, sin is supposed to be disgusting. If you don't find it so, then you have some serious issues yourself.

And secondly, by what standard is it "better" for Luke to tell his wife himself? Shouldn't the "standard" be that Kathy be told the TRUTH? And just who do you imagine is the most likely to tell the truth? Her deceitful H? At the point of a gun? hmmmmm

Secondly, I realize you are brand new to this forum and have NO experience in this arena [unfortunately that hasn't stopped you from feeling free to dole out advice], but forewarning the affairee, as you suggest, is a very BAD SUGGESTION. It usually ensures that the victim spouse never gets the true story by giving the affairees an opportunity to spin the story. Forewarned is forearmed.

It makes no difference who tells Kathy, but it should be the person MOST LIKELY to tell the truth. That is NOT her husband at this point.

Yes, Melody Lane, I am new to posting on this forum.
However, I have read here for quite awhile.

It is my understanding that Harley recommends WS tell their
own BS, not an outsider. (Sometimes an outsider HAS to be the one telling.)

But in the case (since Endures and her husband are friends with Luke) they could counsel with Luke to be the one to tell his wife. (Wouldn't this be best?) If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

ForeverHers: No no, I didn't mean you snubbed ME, you didn't. I was referring to you saying that as a Christian, what Endures said (who is studying in seminary to be become a pastor? is ok): "my behavior toward her (Kathy) has cooled down considerably to the point of near hostility. I can't help it. She disgusts me."

My pastor snubs no one. Disgusted with their sin, you bet he is but he continues to befriend and advise.

huh? Luke is not seeking Harley's help in saving his marriage. Harley tells the repentent WS, who has SOUGHT HIS HELP, he should tell his spouse the truth. This is an entirely different situation. He routinely counsels BS' to call the OP's spouse and inform them; he NEVER tells them to FORCE the OP to do it! He has no standard that it must be the WS.

The person the most likely to tell the truth should tell the BS. Again, the GOAL is to inform the victim of the affair, however that goal is acheived.

Nor does it make any sense to expect an affairee in the throes of his affair to BUST HIMSELF. Confronting the affairee FIRST only gives him an opportunity to SPIN THE STORY. If you had any experience on this arena, you would know that this is a big mistake for the reasons I gave.

Endures, are you avoiding my questions?


If you are avoiding them, perhaps it's because they're not comfortable to answer.

Doing the right thing is sometimes the most difficult thing to do, until it's done. Then you kick yourself for not doing it sooner. Doing the easy, but wrong thing, eats at you from the inside - just like this situation is eating out the core of your church.

Maybe you're off speaking to Luke's wife - good.

Next step - helping the minister. Who's gonna step to the plate and do that?

WAT
-----------------
The more rules you claim to follow, the more chances you have to be a hypocrit.

Hopefully, she is doing the right thing, WAT. I think that is why she is here.

WAT, I would hardly call the 4 hours between your two posts "avoiding" your questions. First, we have no current idea, unless I missed it, what timezone she is in. Second, she had announced that today was the day that she was going to talk to the wife. I suspect that it might take more than just a "drive by" announcement. Third, I will answer your question, which seemed rhetorical, if it will make you less antagonistic toward a Christian:



WAT, your rudeness and antipathy toward Christians is amazing from one who holds himself is such high esteem.

Her "relationship" with others in the church is her business, not yours, frankly. But I'm willing to bet she's seen as a "true believer" and someone they can talk to about difficult issues in confidence. They "seek out" her advice because they most likely KNOW that she is in seminary and they assume, incorrectly, that someone studying for the ministry already "knows" everything, including how to counsel.



Of course not. That's why you persist.



Once more, more disgusting assumptions and Disrespectful Judgments. You have not clue what any of them know or don't know. You don't know what they may already be doing, simply because you are NOT on their "update WAT list" and the proper procedure BEGINS with as much confidentiality as possible, ONLY expanding the "circle of knowledge" as necessary.



Aside from the typo, it has NOT metastasized throughout the body. It is localized between, so far as we know ONE woman and ONE man in the congregation. It IS a "cancer" and it WILL spread it's destruction if NOT addressed, but that is the perview of the Church. It IS a test of a church and the church's willingness to submit to the Lordship of Christ and to humbly follow God's commands in the Scripture. It WILL cast a bright light on the church and how far it may have strayed from the fundamentals of Christianity.



You are "dead on" with this observation and it is a primary reason why Satan loves to attack the churches, to destroy or harm their witness to a lost world. It also exposes those who believe in "easy Christianity" and are NOT willing to stand on God's commands regardless of the "world" thinks of them.


That "shining the light" on the affair IS the process that is being undertaken. You seem to want to "jump to the end of the book before the Preface is finished.

So how about a little patience for a very difficult situation?

FH - bug off.

First of all, she answered questions of others after I posted, so go jump in a lake.

Secondly, I was not asking you any questions.

Your "best defense is a good offense" is showing again - and no defense was called for.

Whose attacking whom here? You just called me antagonistic, rude, disgusting, disrespectful - and maybe I missed a few more.

You're harassing me. I recommend you read the terms of service for participation in this forum and stop it.

You appear to be a bit sensitive when things don't go your way, hence your overzealous reactions. Once again, the term "paranoid" comes to my mind.

If you can back to the beginning of the other thread on this story and objectively and unemotionally read it, you'll see I was advocating for Luke's wife from the beginning. After a bunch of hand wringing and pittiful agonizing over what to do because this was a "church" problem - as if affairs are different there - FINALLY it looked like we had convinced Endures to go to the aid of Luke's wife after "nearly a year" of everybody knowing about his affair with the minister's wife - apparently everyone except Luke's wife and possibly the minister (who is likely in denial).

And here you're attempting to shift criticism to me for asking obvious questions.

My conclusion is that you don't like the obvious questions because it makes your world look very, very bad. Hence your defiant and defensive attitude.


Hello???

The circle of knowledge sounds like the whole congregation and community! Go back and read what Endures wrote!!

Everybody knows except the two BSs!!!

For "nearly a year"!!!!!!!!!

It's obvious that you are attempting to defend the indefensible. "Nearly a year" hasn't been enough time for the "proper procedure" to be effective. How long should it take?

"As much confidentiality as possible" indeed! Sure is obvious to me! Protect the image of the church at all costs! No matter the hypocrisy that continues in the meantime.

Sheese.

Go ahead. Make my day. Just TRY to defend your attitude.

WAT

WAT, you are one amazing piece of work. I will give you that.

And if you want to report me to the moderators, be my guest. I'll leave room on the bench for you.

You just don't like the idea that someone will stand up to you. Plain and simple. Your anti-Christian bigotry is showing again and I don't care if you don't like someone, like me, "calling you" on it. So, what exactly makes you an "expert" on Christian related issues? How about Muslim issues? Or perhaps Buddhist issues? Maybe any issues of faith in a Supreme Being?

No, unlike many Islamist fanatics, I will not be "cutting off any heads." I will defend your right to spout whatever you wish AND I will reserve the right to do the same....all within the rules of the site.

But DON'T ever make the mistake of assuming I will let you brow beat me, or anyone else, into cowering away from a "fight" with you when you are in opposition to God's commands or attempting to "go after" another Christian who is struggling through the disaster of infidelity.

Following MB principles for ending affairs and, hopefully, recovering marriages is GOOD. So stick to those principles and stay out of issues that concern the church, since you don't believe in God, much less the church as followers of God's will and commands.

And "for the record" WAT, there is not ONE post from Endures4evr BETWEEN your first post of questions and your second post of accusation about "avoiding your questions."

Try to keep your facts straight and not invent things to "support" your position.

I think it is important to note that Endures is attempting to do something today that will in essence set off a nuclear bomb in a church (it doesn't matter that it is a church; it could be like WAT said, any important instituion).

It will not be easy for her, it is not easy for anyone. You know we (at MB) sit from a perspective of experience and know what has to be done. We need to remember, much of what needs to be done is counter-intuitive. That's why it is so hard for someone not experienced. She doesn't want to lose a friend and it's hard to confront at friend.

Sometimes we look at a situation like this one and expect someone to know MB instintively. Yes it's been about a year, but it's been a year without MB and a year without knowledge of how to properly handle an A. How many people have had A's go on longer without exposure or a "friend" not saying anything. Plenty. Even with MB knowledge.

It doesn't matter if they are Christian or not. People forget that Christians will never be perfect regardless of what others expect. So let's treat Endures like a human that will fail and allow room for her to grow.

Let's give Endures a chance to do right. Let's even give her the opportunity to fail and guide her to do right.

She seems to be able to post only during the evening, so let's wit until then for her to get backto us. Maybe this whole thing, once it is exposed, will set something in motion that won't allow her to get back with us until Monday. Let's give it some time to work.

Just my .02 worth for today.

S&C

S&C - nicely stated.

It may indeed be easy for us to unwittingly get into our own "group think" - being that we can probably "do MB" in our sleep. No brainers to us - you're right.

If I have used 2X4s on Endures - more like cut to the chase questions (IMO) - it's been because adultery in a church ought to be a no brainer for someone of her stature - MB knowledge or not. That's all.

FH -

OK, FH - you're right for a change. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That was a mistake and not an invention.

But why do you continue your offensive attitude with me?

Why do you surrender such power? - give me such power over you?

Keep digging that hole. You're making yourself look foolish.

WAT

I don't know...perhaps I like a "good fight" or perhaps I'm not willing to "turn the other cheek" to an insult against my God and other Christians. No doubt a character flaw I may still need to work on.



Well, when you are done using that shovel, may I borrow it to continue digging our "Hole built for two?"

Dern FH, I missed this response from you!


Wrong again. I have nothing against Christians or folks of any other faith.

I DO have a tough time with hypocrits, though. And that's what this is all about. Hypocrisy.

If it had been a Mosque or Synagogue or Marriage Builders Inc. or Walmart or the Wednesday Night Betrayed Spouse Bowling League - or any other organization that ostensibly eschews adultery - I would have addressed it the same way.

So don't think Christians are special to me in this regard.

Speaking of bigotry, this is what you wrote on the other thread of this story to Endures:


Now, re-read the passage above replacing the term "unbelievers" with "Jews", "Muslims", "Hindus", "Atheists", "Catholics", "Methodists", or even "Christians." Also try "blacks", "whites", "hispanics", or "non-Americans."

Want to discuss bigotry any further?


You have no idea what I don't believe in.

Curious you mention following commands. What part of "Thou shalt not...." did these folks not understand?

That's the entirety of my point. Don't you get it yet? You don't have to be an expert on church business to question this.

If that constitutes "spouting" and anti-Christian bigotry there's a lot of us out here.

WAT

Yep, you're quite right, WAT. There IS a lot of anti-Christian bigotry and there ARE lot of them "out there."

Contrary to what you think, I DO understand your point.
You don't have to be an expert on church business to question this. You DON'T have to be an expert in anything to question anything. But you SHOULD be an "expert" in you field if your opinion is going to hold some weight. Just ask 2long about his insistence on "Peer Review Articles" for example. But you are attempting to advise a Christian about CHURCH matters, not just the general "run of the mill" infidelity. How dare you accuse the Church, or the Christians, of hypocrisy? You don't believe in anything about Christ, so to you ALL of it is hypocrisy and idiocy all rolled into one.

But YOUR opinion doesn't count in Church related matters. God's opinion counts, as He has revealed it in the Scripture.



The same part that your wife and all adulterers "didn't understand." We are not talking about "sin" and it being an "equal opportunity abuser." We were talking about what Endures should do on TWO fronts, informing those who needed to know what was going on and how to handle it from a "Church body" perspective relative to members who are willfully sinning against God.

You want to advise on the first part, be my guest. You want to advise on the second part, you are not even "novice" enough, let alone "expert" enough, to comment on Church matters, let alone to advise on them.



Sure. I'd be happy to. Freedom of Religion gives a RIGHT, upheld by the Supreme Court TO "bigotry" or "exclusivity" for a religion. You practice that same right...you are bigoted against the teaching of Creation in schools and against people of the Christian faith who believe in obedience to God's commands. So don't bother trying to intimidate me with your boogeyman word "bigotry." I am as "intolerant" of things "not of God" as you are of things not of "the natural world."

I would no more advise a Muslim about their religion as I would advise a "rock to stop acting like a rock." I am NOT one and don't have the "expertise" to advise. I CAN, and do, oppose their opinion when it impacts ME, but short of that they can crawl under whatever rock they want and do whatever they want, just keep it to themselves. It's a lot different, though, when one of them wants to join "our organization" and abide by "our" rules. THEN I have a right to "call them" on "conduct unbecoming..."

Good day.

I don't want a holy war either. The problem is that no one wants to confront anyone. Everyone's afraid of the response. No one wants to talk to the minister because he apparently knows (he was told and did nothing about it) and has chosen to ignore it. I came to this site asking advice. I didn't know if this should go to the church's regional office, if I should take the matter into my own hands and confront one of the cheating spouses, or put it in the hands of one of the church deacons. I understand that it is an extremely sick church--and believe me, it's not unusual. But I'm just at a loss. It's like a circuit overload! I've been going to the church for 40 years. I know many of the parishioners as friends. What else do you want me to say? I am trying to understand and help, but I don't know what to do except to tell the story and get some guidance. Every word I've put down in these posts is true. I'm getting irritated with having my credibility questioned. Why in heaven's name would I make up such a thing?
Maybe it's that you've been through this kind of thing and you know and understand first hand how hurtful the secrecy is. While I agree with you, I also understand how frightening it is to expose the secret, especially when you know that you'll lose a lot of friends, and if the church splits, some will blame you for it. Some will say I should have kept my mouth shut. Can you see what I'm saying? I'm afraid. I'm afraid of the responsibility of causing the pain that will occur as a result. Don't chastize me or question my credibility or integrity. Just try to understand the predicament from where I stand, if you can.

Yes, I read the post. I read all the posts and try to respond to all but just can't get to them all presently. I am not a WW--"wayward wife"?--I am the friend of the cheating husband. We've been friends since we were kids. However, I have been married for 27 years to a wonderful man I wouldn't trade for the world. When I found out Luke was involved with the minister's wife I couldn't believe it. He thinks it's all a deep secret but apparently half the town knows now. I wanted to try to understand how an affair goes. I wanted to understand the dynamics of an affair. If my question was inappropriate, forgive me.
I'm sorry if I don't sound Christ-like. Sometimes I'm human. It is utterly nauseating that the wife of a minister, who understands the boundaries that go with being married to clergy could not only blatantly flirt with a parishioner, but then become romantically involved with them. It's a slap in the minister's face. He has to stand in the pulpit every Sunday and face his congregation.
I hope I've clarified things a little. Thanks for your opinion and perspective.
LJ

Endure,
I am so sorry about all the events here.
I choose to believe your story. That is my choice and I will stick to that.
I am not into church for the reasons you list. I was wronged by a churchmember in my teens, and have tried a few times to go, but cannot and will not go.I believe in God and chose to pray at home and not in a building that is not my home. I confess my sins to God in my way. I ask for his forgiveness, and try my best to do what is right.

Now, to your post and questions.
We here on MB follow the MB principals. WE are all affected by affairs in some way or another. You are even affected by an affair. Albeit not your own marriage, but your fellow christian brothers. You are in a tough situation and I can only give my opinions. I cannot speak for anyone, not you, not other MBers, not my FWH, no one but me. If this were your best friend being cheated on and you had the knowledge, would you tell her? Would you turn your cheek the other way and let it continue? How about if it were your H cheating on you and your best friend knew. Would you rather your best friend tell you the truth as she knows it or leave you in the dark?
I personally would rather be told. There is too much at stake to not know. There are STD's out there that kill. I value my life and the life of my children. I also value the life of my friends and the life of my FWH. An A not only undermines the M, it puts all of the entire family at risk for a deadly disease.
What does your H think about this? Is he choosing not to be involved? Are there others also choosing to ignore this? How about what is ethically right?
Maybe you and your H could sit down, discuss this and both do the telling??
Just my thoughts and questions.
Je

WAT,
I was not home today. My husband and I went to Boston for the day. Then we watched a couple of movies. I didn't get to the computer until around 11:00 p.m. I'm not avoiding anything! Read on.