Yo celt - re: a kiss is not sex

I have to admit I do not know your story.

Most would agree that a kiss might not be sex, depending on the context. We've probably all experienced this.

But the kissing endures describes, along with all the other classic affair-type behavior and corroborating evidence, indicates that we can establish 100% that an affair is in progress. Period.

Has sexual intercourse taken place? Can't say it has 100%. Can't say it has 100% between you and your spouse, either.

But all this is splitting hairs. A more-than-a-peck kiss in my book equates to a physical affair here. Plenty of "smoke." If anyone wants to argue that intercourse hasn't taken place, that sounds like a rationalization from a wayward spouse parsing words reminiscent of debating what the definition of "is" is.

Just my opinion.

I encourage you to continue soaking up the information about infidelity here.

In my OPINION, ForeverHers, there is just a whole lot of hearsay and gossip and rumor in this entire story.

FOR INSTANCE, how does Endures know that Kathy finds her
preacher husband BORING?

Just another soap opera to me from someone not even closely involved in the situation, listening to town rumors for the majority of her information.

Maybe us men are different than women in handling RUMORS of affairs. I know Endures said her husband would not do anything with this information.

My Bible says the husband as head of the household, the spiritual leader, is suppose to handle these type of things, not the woman.

Quick post before work:
I talked to Luke about an hour or so ago. He said, angrily, "Kathy would leave her husband in a heartbeat!" My response was, "Yeah, well why hasn't she?" He said, "Because she wants to stay together until their son's older (he's 13), and then she's leaving." I said, "Dream on." He initially called to yell at me, and when I answered the phone, the first thing he said was, "It was YOU, wasn't it?" I pretended not to know what he was talking about, and when he "you told Janet about Kathy and me", I said "yes, it was me, Luke. But I'm not the only one who knows. People in church know and some folks in town know." There was a silence (he probably had to pick his jaw up off the floor!) and then I said, You need to take stock." I forget what was said to prompt him to say she'd leave her husband in a heartbeat, but that's what he said. Do you guys think that she's really waiting for her son to get older and then leave her husband? Is that a common statement among affairees?
Later!
LJ

Can you say, "addiction"?

Minor correction: What a typical WS!!

What did I tell you? They actually think they're pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. Very, very typical.

So, what are your plans when you DO see him?

Endures, you are in a position different from most on this forum - you're both a close up third party AND an affair "virgin". We're "distant" third parties and affair contaminees (is that a word? - contaminated by affairs?). You're in a laboratory of sorts - seeing a real life "experiment." I hope you consider your experience to have value, despite its challenge. If you're not careful, your good works will benefit your own marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

It's VERY common for affairees to lie to each other as much, if not more, than they lie to their spouses.

But no one can know what her logic is - if any.

Based on her track record you've provided, if Luke get his head outta his butt, she'll just move on to another victim.

Let's not forget that whether she would actually leave her husband or not IS NOT THE ISSUE! Luke's been abducted by aliens and he MAY THINK that her willingness to leave her husband MAKES HIS ACTIONS ALL OK! This is what everyone in the family and church community needs to attack.

WAT

Duh, celt, HELLO!!!!

Isn't Luke the "head of the household"????

He's handling it very well, wouldn't you say? [daily show]Bwhaaa?[/daily show]

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Also - suppose Endures (female) was not married? Then what? Who's the "head of the household" in that case?

WAT

Celt,



It all moot at this point. The post following yours confirmed it 100%.


MOOT!


MOOT!


But, you never dealt with the facts Celt. I know lots of "men" who are conflict avoiders.


There are enough examples in the Bible that show that women did what her H should have done. Heck, the Bible even shows an instance where a donkey had to protect a man because he wasn't doing the right thing.

Sometimes men are just not available or willing to do what is right, so God has the option to choose a woman.

Like WAT said, we don't know your story. What brought you here?

S&C

Endures,

What WAT said! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All of this is very typical of a WS. It's in the alien "enhanced" DNA they get from the mother ship.

Do you know if the Pastor has been informed about Janet knowing? Since you have already spoken to the Pastor. Kathy is probably already aware that Janet knows and is doing damage control with John.

I guess we'll hear from you after work.

Bless you.

S&C

S&C -
Ooo Ooo Ooo - good point S&C. I forgot about this angle.

Luke has likely tipped off Kathy that you (Endures) are on the trail. In these situations, the WS (Kathy) will probably conduct preemptive damage control with the BS (John):

"Honey - that bad ole Endures is speading gossip about ME! Something about me and that homely Mr. - er, can't remember his name, you know, that shy farmer. What IS his name?? Anyway, Honey, isn't that absurd??? But don't ask her about it - just leave it alone. Talk is cheap."

WAT

WAT, you are too funny!--But right on the money, I'm sure!

First I want to clear a couple of things up. I heard Kathy say that her husband was boring. She's made no bones about that. She's made remarks (that I have heard her say) that he doesn't know how to dress, that he doesn't know how to have fun (she holds the trophy on THAT one!), and yes, that he's "boring" (her word). So, he's the pathetically boring old preacher (8 years her senior) and she, of course, is the brilliant flame, shining enough light for the two of them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I'm being sarcastic.

I don't know what Kathy has said to her husband regarding my disclosure. I would imagine it will be just as you said, WAT. But the minister didn't just fall off the turnip truck. He's been told this before and went through it at the last church. I'm laying low, but will willingly sit down and talk with him anytime. I'm feeling very irritated with him, actually. He brought this mess to our church because he didn't disclose his marital problems with the committee that was in charge of hiring him (and ministers are supposed to include EVERYTHING in their profiles, including marital, sexual, and psych issues). So now our church has been tainted by this ugliness that could have been avoided. I'm angry as ****** (and the hormones don't help) and I want to yell at him too.

I forget what the other thing was I wanted to clear up. I guess that this all holds a "soap opera" quality to it because it sounds like one! (Anyone remember Peyton Place?! Well, here you go.) In terms of gossip and heresay, I can only tell you that I don't consider myself gossiping if I am being told some of these details and then piecing them together when I post. Perhaps it's gossip because I'm disclosing it here. If that's the case, okay, guilty. Whatever anyone wants to think is up to them.
LJ

And I wasn't implying he has - just that it's oh so typical for a trusting BS to go in to immediate denial. I did myself. (I may have just got off the turnip truck, but at least I was riding in the cab!)

I can tell you from "researching" infidelity for almost six years that there aren't any cases that DON'T sound like a soap opera. This one's just average.

WAT

Most of our own 'A' stories could be fodder for soap opera writers.

Endures4,

You are getting some good advice from people on this thread, including WAT and FH. You are also receiving a lot of noise. I would like to offer you two cents that I haven’t seen contributed yet. I hope it is not more noise to you.

We all live in concentric circles of intimacy. At the center is our own self. Then spouse. Then children. Then family. Friends. Then like-minded groups, such as your church. Then work groups. And so on as we move outward.

In one of the outer rings envision the community of all marriages.

You appear to want to do the right thing regarding your friend and your church. Yet, what each of us does to help (or not) build and rebuild marriages affected by adultery also affects for good (or ill) the community of all marriages. Society’s attitude regarding marriage is the integral of all of us, of each individual marital action and inaction.

Those of us who believe in the sanctity and covenant of marriage also realize the secrecy in which affairs live is wholly wrong. The lies and diversions are as bad for everyone involved, including society at large, as the adulterous acts themselves.

The code of secrecy society tolerates about adultery needs to be eliminated. You are doing your part.

Here is a short article addressing the so-called code of secrecy that may be helpful to you:

http://www.dearpeggy.com/secrets.html

I would hate for you to feel bad or in any way responsible for how this mess turns out. Conduct yourself ethically and compassionately and you will not be responsible for any future results. But if you didn’t act at all you would be partly responsible for what happens to these two families and your church.

With prayers,

PS: Perhaps in all this you are being called to a different ministry than the one you are now studying for.

WAT, I think what you said about Luke thinking that because Kathy said she'd leave her husband, it justtifies his affair is abolutely true. That makes sense! If he thinks that she'd leave her spouse in a New York minute, then his relationship with her is okay because she's not happy anyway! (blast of trumpets!) And she justifies the affair by--I don't know. I guess by figuring she's not happy. But then, maybe she doesn't feel she needs to justify it. In light of her having done the same thing at their former church (getting involved with someone in her husband's parish), I wonder if, for her, this is a pathological thing. Does that sound wierd? I remember years ago, when I was in my mid 20s, I worked with a girl younger than myself who would only date married men. She didn't seem to consiously seek out married men, yet always ended up with one! To me, that's pathological, and I see Kathy as being drawn to having relationships with men in her husband's churches. I don't know. . .just a thought.

I'm going to talk to Luke later tonight. He's coming over after dinner and we're going to talk. Is there anything I should impress upon him? What can I tell him about the "fog" , and should I tell him that Kathy's done this before? I think if he hears that, he'll think I'm lying. Anyone? Advice, suggestions, tips?
Thanks!!
LJ

Yep, WAT's kinda smart about noticing that stuff.

And you maybe right about Kathy.


Will your H be present or at least very close by?


Hard to tell if he is willing to accept anything that contrdicts his POV. The alien mentality is hard to reason with.

But, you may just remind him how far back the two of you go and ask him if there is any reason why you would want to hurt him.

You might even let him know that enough of the church is aware of what's going on and it is affecting the Church Body and what he and Kathy are doing are hurting a whole lot of people.


When someone is in the fog, it is a normal existance for them. So telling them that what they are familiar and comfortable with is wrong, will sound odd to them. Much like the rain in the NW part of the US. They all think it's normal. To tell them it isn't, ...well it isn't just doesn't compute for them.



Is there proof that he can check out himself about Kathy's past? I don't remember how Kathy's past was discovered in the first place?

He may not believe you, but if you can say something like; "Don't take my word for it, check it out yourself. There's proof if you care to look for it. Here's where you can check it out. ..and say it with confidence, it just might unlodge his boat just enough to stick his head out of the fog for a bit.


Good luck tonight.

S&C

Good questions, I'll give you my take, but I'm not a shrink nor a counselor. Hopefully others will chime in.

No, that doesn't sound weird and it appears that personality disorders are players in affairs. She may be an example of this. But we cannot deal with her causes other than John's contribution to the poor marital state, if any.

Sometimes, coming from a third party, it seems that a calm explanation of what a WS stands to lose can get through. Consequences. This seems to work better than explaining the wrongness or sinfulness or crazyness of what they're doing. Those things speak to what the WS IS rather than what the WS's actions may result in. See the difference? He may lose his family, custody of his children, his property, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe nothing that he'll listen to. Ever try reasoning with a drunk? Same thing.

For sure he'll think you're lying, but if you get through a bit with what he has to lose, then the repetitive nature of her behavior may help him realize he's being used like the earlier guy(s). Especially if he puts 2 and 2 together and consider that he will likely lose her as well - she'll move on to another "conquest" when the "new" wears off of him.

WAT

Thanks very much for that article on the code of secrecy. I read it through and saved it. It's very true that the secrecy only compounds the shame and protects the affair. Why don't people see that??
LJ

WAT,
I had to respond the second I read your first line about the personality disorders! One of my dear friends at church, and a former co-worker in the social services field, in a clinical social worker. She is one of the others who observed Luke and Kathy together outside of town. She shared with me her thoughts that Kathy had a personality disorder histrionic, to be exact). Yes, I know, it sounds llke we were engaging in gossip. However I still believe we were not as it was something we discussed between us and went no further (as far as I know, and speaking for myself).
Just wanted to throw that out there while I saw your post.
LJ

Thanks for everything, WAT, S&C, Aphelion, and others! Luke will be here shortly, and I will be only discussing the matter of consequences. I am going to mention about Kathy's other affair, although it will be hard for him in particular to find out. The information came from a minister in the UCC Conference who had served at the church. I don't know, but I'll figure out something.
Later--
LJ

Greetings--
Luke left about 15 miniutes ago. Man, he's a train wreck! My husband opted to hole himself in our bedroom and watch "Lost" for me while I talked with Romeo. It surprised me that, after walking through the door, he hugged me. I was ready to slip on the boxing gloves, feeling very defensive. But I asked him what he was feeling now that the cat's out of the bag. He said he was mad about Janet being told. He didn't want her to know because she'll "take" him for all he's worth. I said, "What would make you think she'd never find out?!" He said people should mind their own g.d. business! I said "When you are screwing (excuse me, folks) the minister's wife, it's our business!" And then I asked him if he'd thought about the people who will be forever impacted by what he and Kathy did. He just sat there. I said, "people are not going to see the minister as a credible counselor or worthy to lead the church. He said, "Well, I never thought he was anyway." So I said, "Congratulations, you proved your point." He continued sitting there, slumpled in the chair with his arms folded, jiggling his feet like he was impatient. I said that Janet will have a rough time getting over the hurt. "She trusted you." He said she hadn't cared about him in years,"you know that, L." (he had said a few years ago that ever since she had their son 9 years ago, she funneled all her efforts and energy into mothering.) So I asked what he had done to show her he needed her as much as thier son did, and he said he used to try to initiate a night out to the movies or offer to do whatever she wanted to do. He said she didn't care if he was around or not. I asked him if he thought she loved him, and he said, "In some ways, maybe. But she doesn't bother to show any interest in doing anything together, doesn't even act like she wants me to be there. She never askes where I'm going, when I'll be home, or anything else." I asked him if he loved her, and he said he didn't think so.

Then he launched into the Gettysburg Address of His Love for Kathy. Oh, she changed his life. She made him feel like he meant something. She showed him how "it really feels to love someone." He said she's the most passionate and beautiful woman he's ever known. She's "so alive and free spirited." At that point, I wanted to slap him. I said, "Yeah, I'll bet she is." And then felt rotten for taking a cheap shot. But he was on a tirade, so he ignored me! They could talk about anything! He said they could "talk about anything." He went on to say that John never appreciated her, never bothered to listen to her, never saw her true beauty, how lonely and empty she feels but how much life she's got in her. (I should have worn my boots becaust the bullsh*t was getting deep.) Then he said, with an embarassed sort of half-smile that he'd never had such "awesome" sex, doing things Janet would never do. (That was enough for me, thanks!) I said to him, "So what are your plans?" He said that he and Kathy had talked a few times about eventually leaving town (!) and moving in together. He said he was completely in love with her and she with him. He said there is no way he will ever let her go or consider life without her, no matter what anyone in church or town says. I asked him what he'd do if she decided not to see him anymore, that their relationship wasn't worth all this deception and sneaking around. He answered that she would never say that. He said they enjoy the time they have together; she wouldn't end their relationship.

I didn't know what else to say. I wanted to grab him and shake him with all my strength. When he left I got kind of teary, but I can't let this overwhelm me. I want to stay focused on seeing this get resolved, and I'll do whatever it takes. But please continue to give me advice and tips because I feel so frustrated and angry over his empty-headedness. He's obviously not thinking with the head that's on his shoulders! Do you think this is an affair that is actually meant to last? I mean, he is so in love with her, and if she is with him as well, maybe they ARE going to make it. I can't imagine that, but who knows?

Thanks for your imput and encouragement! Please let me know where you think this is all going. Do you think I should just back off now?
LJ