Hi Endures,

Well, I'm going to give you my .02 worth. I may not cover everything, but here goes.

It's not your job to see that it gets resolved. I don't think you are going to like hearing that, but it's true. As far as the M is concerned, that fight is between Janet and Luke & Kathy and John. It is up to them to sort it all out.

As a courtesy, it might be good to let the pastor know that Janet knows (if he doesn't yet). If you were to pursue this according to biblical instructions, you will need someone else that is willing to go with you to either Luke and/or Kathy and point out their sin. Then if they don't repent, take it to the church's governing body or the church itself. They will need to do something regarding the pastor. If they refuse, then I would suggest looking for another church to serve at.

I'm sorry is turning out this way, but Luke is following the WS script that in encoded in each of their brains. Statistics show that only 3% or less of all M that are born out of infidelity succeed. But I'm willing to bet that once the heat is turned up, Kathy will dump Luke. Too much effort to keep the relationship going. Once everything is out in the open the relationship changes and Kathy may not like it any more.

So what do you do as a Christian with Janet and Luke? You love them but set your boundries. Make sure Janet knows you care about her and make sure you know Luke knows you will be around when he gets his head out from between his lower cheeks. Although he maybe a bit embarrassed to come around when that happens.

Not sure if I left anything out. If I did others will chime in.

Just a side note:


And she would do something different when he and Kathy moved to another town together?!?!

Bless you.

S&C

Virtually guaranteed to fail. The hotter they are, the more dopamine driven they are. The "chemistry" cannot last.


I keep forgetting how astonishingly selfish WSs can be. Come June it'll be six years for me studying this disease and I still get amazed.

Note to self: another confirming datapoint - adverse consequences can get their attention, if only for a minute

I agree with S&C - you've performed your civic and humane duty to spill the beans to Janet and Luke as an individual friend. Only other thing you can consider in this limited role is to do the same for John. After that, it's out of your hands other than as a churh member to go up the chain of command in the church for the sake of the church. FH has made it clear that I can't "help" YOU with that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - nor should I.

However, if I was communicating with Janet (or any other BS fighting an affair within ANY organization that specifically eschews adultery), I'd be screaming at the top of my lungs for her to take a scorched earth approach until SOMEBODY does SOMETHING in the organization to put their actions where their claims are.

Hmmmmmmmm, who AM I communicating with? A church official? Are you a church official, Endures? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

If you are, you know what you have to do. If you aren't, let your conscience be your guide.

I admire you for what you've done for your friends. Hopefully, Luke will come to realize this.

WAT

Endures4ever,

I’m confused. I thought Luke was a Christian. How can he stand in front of you (a fellow Christian) and talk about how great sex was with the minister’s wife? How can he contemplate divorcing Janet and Kathy divorcing John so they can be “married”?

Did you tell him that if he doesn’t fully repent he is effectively renouncing his faith and condemning his soul to ******?

Please send him Proverbs 5:

1 My son, pay attention to my wisdom,
listen well to my words of insight,

2 that you may maintain discretion
and your lips may preserve knowledge.

3 For the lips of an adulteress drip honey,
and her speech is smoother than oil;

4 but in the end she is bitter as gall,
sharp as a double-edged sword.

5 Her feet go down to death;
her steps lead straight to the grave. [a]

6 She gives no thought to the way of life;
her paths are crooked, but she knows it not.

7 Now then, my sons, listen to me;
do not turn aside from what I say.

8 Keep to a path far from her,
do not go near the door of her house,

9 lest you give your best strength to others
and your years to one who is cruel,

10 lest strangers feast on your wealth
and your toil enrich another man's house.

11 At the end of your life you will groan,
when your flesh and body are spent.

12 You will say, "How I hated discipline!
How my heart spurned correction!

13 I would not obey my teachers
or listen to my instructors.

14 I have come to the brink of utter ruin
in the midst of the whole assembly."

15 Drink water from your own cistern,
running water from your own well.

16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
your streams of water in the public squares?

17 Let them be yours alone,
never to be shared with strangers.

18 May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.

19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be captivated by her love.

20 Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress?
Why embrace the bosom of another man's wife?

21 For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD,
and he examines all his paths.

22 The evil deeds of a wicked man ensnare him;
the cords of his sin hold him fast.

23 He will die for lack of discipline,
led astray by his own great folly.

Sorry - I can't resist.


Duh!!

Because he's currently a hypocrit!!!

[daily show]How could those priests be pedophiles?[/daily show]

Nope - Proverbs 5 won't do a dern bit of good. If "Thou shalt not...." didn't, why would it?

The only thing that can wake him up is cold, hard consequences- if that. Sadly, the most effective consequences come too late.

OK, MowTin, sarcasm is off.

Is there some aspect of how a WS - any WS - acts during an affair that you are not yet familiar with? Luke is no diferent than any other, regardless of professed faith. During an affair, there is no "faith" other than one's own selfishness. It's universal.

Thanks guys--
S&C, you are right on, I'm sure. Once the heat's turned up, she'll abandon the affair. She knows she has a good thing but for some reason is compelled to start extramarital relationships, God knows why. Control maybe? A sense of still having what it takes to attract someone? I don't know. But Luke thinks that the plans they've spoken of--getting an apartment together and skipping blissfully into the sunset--is a sincere show of devotion on her part too. I had to bite my knuckles to keep from saying, "She probably made similar plans with the last guy!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

WAT, I just worry that when (or if) she dumps him, he'll sink into a bad depression and want to take his life. I know he had a choice and is just as guilty for getting involved, but I think of her as a preditor. She honed right in on his lonliness and, even knowing her boundaries as clergy's wife, pursued him so aggressively. I wish you could have seen her in action to know what I mean. She flooded him with everything he wanted to hear, telling him how "cute" and "hot" he was. Being a close friend of Luke's, I want to confront her and point out how their affair will detroy him, that I hope she's happy with herself.

I'll be seeing John after service on Sun. I don't think I can take another discussion! The one with Janet was stressful and frightening. The one with Luke was frustrating as ******, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> and I know the one with John will be either similar to Luke's, considering his former denial, or frought with anger. I don't feel like I have the energy. I have plenty of anger of my own to deal with!
Thanks so much, everyone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
LJ

NO, WAT,
I'm not a church official. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK, I honestly didn't know. Who am I to know ANYTHING about church stuff? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yesterday, I had to ask somebody on a different thread what a "vicar" is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



Yep, she sure sounds like the preditor type - experienced, too.

Not to diminish Luke's role, playing her as the preditor to both Luke and Janet may provide a little "save face" to them both. As much as I abhor self appointed victimhood (we hear it from WSs all the time) allowing L&J "victim" status to get things going in the right direction isn't such a bad thing, IMHO. - as long as he ultimately owns up to his role AND Janet acknowleges her role in creating the poor marital environment.

WAT

Thanks, MowTin, for your thoughts. But if I told Luke to "repent" or he'd go to ******, he'd fall over laughing. I would not be inclined to quote any Scripture, particularly OT, to anyone in pain, unless they asked . I understand that other Christian denominations take Scripture in a more literal context and follow it in very strict terms. I respect that. However, our denomination is a more liberal Protestant Christian faith tradition (United Church of Christ, <a href="www.UCC.org" target="_blank"></a> .) We do not take the Bible in a literal form as a rule. But religion and Christology doesn't belong here, particularly to debate.

I might be prompted, instead, to tell Luke that he's violated the vows of his marriage, which he took before his family and God at this stage of the game.
LJ

I think the air would be better spent talking to the BS's ... Luke probably fully remembers he's married and just doesn't even care at this point. You specifically shouldn't be speaking to a man about these matters. I'm kind of surprised you haven't been more forceful with your husband, telling him you need his support on this matter.

Endures,


We are also assuming the heat will be turned up. Right now it is basically you. The only way the heat will be turned up is for the Elders to take action or a good portion of the congregation take matters into there own hands if the Elders don't.


That converstion could take on a life of it's own, that's for sure and probably has in some form or another here.


This is where the fantasy is in full force. They don't realize this is where it all comes crashing down around them. Kathy will now have to meet all of Luke's needs and visa versa. They will now have bills to pay and real struggles. Like where is their income going to come from if Janet "takes him for all he's worth"?



May not be a bad thing to slip in sometime.


WAT's reply was probably right. If it is a concern, making him out to be a victim might help, but yes he would need to understand that it was still his choice to do it. Something for a good counselor to work with him on.


IMHO, it would fall on deaf ears.


I don't think a discussion is necessary. You've already talked to him once before. I'd just say; "Oh, BTW, Janet knows about Luke and Kathy's A. Just thought you'd want to know". If he wants a discussion, tell him that you're fed up with the whole thing, including his lack of body parts to deal with it when he was first told and his discussion needs to be with Kathy, Luke and Janet. And if he doesn't do anything, you're not going to sit around and watch this destroy the church body.

Keeping it all in prayer. Bless you.

S&C

02-16-06

celt, and since you believe that, you surely obey that right?

see how it matters, but it doesn't? It really isn't a key part to this thread.

You are correct, Rookkev, it is not a key part of this thread.

I just wanted ForeverHers and Steadfast's Christian thoughts on this.
No need for them to reply.

Sorry Endures for the above sidetracked post.

Ron

Celt, I believe you are addressing me, not the others you mentioned.

I did not say we don't BELIEVE in the Bible. I said we do not follow all of its Scripture in the literal context that other denominations do. PLEASE HEAR WHAT I JUST SAID. I suggest you visit the UCC website (www.UCC.org) for a better understanding of the denomination. DO NOT take up theological or Christological issues here, PLEASE.
LJ

ok

Celt,
I'd read your post quickly and thought you mistakenly thought they'd written my post. So forgive my intrustion.

Sorry, I must be missing something. All I see on Celt's post is the date.

Other topics can be discussed on a separate thread. I don't mind.

Blessings.

S&C

Oh, that's wierd! Celt posted earlier re: my answer to MowTin's Proverbs post (previous page), but somehow it got deleted, I guess! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I kind of thought that, but didn't want to lose focus on what we were doing.

Are you doing ok Endures?

S&C <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi S&C--
I was just about to jump on the treadmill when I thought I'd check the thread and see if anyone else had added anything. I think I was a little rough on Celt! I just get so tired of all the theological talk! People aren't going to change their views, so why argue!?

I stopped by the farm today and saw that Janet was home. I knocked on their door but she didn't answer. Luke was out in one of the fields but it was so muddy, I didn't bother to trudge out there. I called Janet on my cell, and she had been in the shower. I asked how she was feeling and she said, "Okay I guess." I asked if she'd talked with Luke about any of this mess, and she said yes but that they hadn't really gotten anywhere. She seemed reluctant to talk, so either their son was around or she just didn't feel like talking. I told her that she was in my thoughts and to call me anytime she wanted to talk. That's it so far.
How are you?
LJ