I think a few people are being a little rough on Celt (as well as a few others). And nothing gets a thread going like a heated debate about theology. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I will get involved when a proclaimed Christian is ignoring scripture and still wondering "why isn't my M getting any better?" Sorry, just goes against my grain. Like you, I just want to slap them upside the head with a Jonah size fish flipper until they figure it out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well gotta go. Got stuff to do before I het the sack.

In His Arms.

S&C <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

S&C regarding a potential discussion with John:

I agree assuming that John is not in denial. This (being in denial) is still a possibility. I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt absent firmer evidence (from Endures) to the contrary.

Being in denial would be more in line with the typical affair scenario. You (Endures) or somebody else may have to whack him with a dinosaur bone, er, flipper <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> to get him to open his eyes. Very, very typical. I know - it happened to me.

If he ISN'T in denial, you've got another HUGE problem to deal with, obviously, and S&C's suggestion hopefully would nudge him to do the right things - or hunker down in damage control and further reveal his true colors.

WAT
----------------
Just imagine if he'd shot Scalia!

I deny he's in denial! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Nah, just kiddng.

You see, that 's why WAT hangs around, to point out important stuff like that.

S&C

Greetings all!
I think John is not in denial so much as he's desperate . He's pathetic. He buys her gorgeous jewelry, flowers, and last summer took her to Mexico. He keeps trying to prove to her that he loves her, knowing she's seeing another man. I don't know, guys, is that denial or desperation? I can't figure it out. I feel fed up with him. At first my thinking was, 'Gee, the poor guy has got to get up in the pulpit every Sunday and face a sea of people that know about his wife. That takes guts." But as time went on and I learned that this had happened at the previous church he served, and that he was spoken to at this church, I started thinking, "What a coward!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Maybe I'm being too judgemental, never having experienced this myself. I don't know how I'd handle it if it were me in his shoes. But he's not an assertive person. He's very passive, which does not make for a good leader, in my view.
LJ

Well, I was hoping it would be typical denial.

Sadly, lost desperation is probably apt. Maybe this is a special form of denial. None are so blind as those who will not see?

A series of cynical questions are going through my mind considering the folks involved, the repetitiveness and length of time, and the setting - any objective observer ought to be able to imagine them, so I won't bother to ask. There can be no good answers and I don't want to see someone try to defend this. All around inexcusable.

I pity the man. He clearly needs to unload his wife - don't know what to recommend to get him to see that.

WAT

Are divorced people still allowed to serve as pastors in your denomination? Is so, then he could stand to lose his whole livelihood which could be a devastating proposition to him. Thus, he choses to stay in a state of denial as long as possible.

Trix, yes, a pastor can be divorced. But I think he will still lose his livlihood at this church eventually because people will no longer look to him as a credible minister. No one will respect in this position. And forget the wife!! I don't think there are too many that have any respect for her!--Except for Luke, who thinks she's an angel from Heaven! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
LJ

Celt - ?

I'm OOT with limited access. What did you want regarding what?

ForeverHers and Steadfast.
I had deleted that post because as endures pointed out, she didn't want to talk theology and it truly did not have anything to do with the theard topic of: "What do those having an affair do? Is it always lovemaking?"

Since you have asked me several times (I was just going to let it go) this is it: Endures had said: "However, our denomination is a more liberal Protestant Christian faith tradition (United Church of Christ. We do not take the Bible in a literal form as a rule. But religion and Christology doesn't belong here, particularly to debate."

I wanted your opionions on a church that does NOT believe 100% that the Bible is the WORD OF GOD in every way. (My church and I believe the Bible is either true in it's entirety or not true at all.) Just wondered what you two believe.

Sorry for the getting off topic, Endures, for this post.

And something else that has been bothering me.
Endures said that Luke told her what great sex it was with the preacher's wife.

It is beyond my comprehension (and slightly unbelievable) that he would CONFIDE this to a woman, the very woman that has taken it upon herself to TELL ALL to his wife.

I have NEVER cheated on my wife but you can be sure if I had, I would not tell intimate details to a woman that is telling what all she knows or THINKS she knows to my wife.

It just doesn't make sense to me that he (Luke) would actually tell endures that. And to be honest I wonder if he did say SEX WITH THE PREACHER'S WIFE WAS AWESOME.

It is more than 'wierd' if he really told her this.
Do you guys understand any of this, why Luke would confide
intimate details with Endures?

Endures, since it's your thread and you don't want any theological or Christological discussion, I will simply ask....if NOT Scripture, then WHAT will be the "yardstick" of behavior and submission to God's commands?

If NOT Scripture, then what besides "human" reason, thought, values, and morals, let alone commands that are APPLICABLE to ALL Christians at ALL times (such as the commandments of God) IS applicable to Luke or Janet or ANY Christian. "Take up your cross and follow ME," OUTSIDE of Christology, has NO meaning or imperative to "Christians" or to anyone else.

ONCE you toss out the Scripture, what is left to BELIEVE? But that gets us into a discussion of what you mean by "literal," and you've already dismissed that as "theologically unsound and not for discussion."

Endures, I base my advice to Christians UPON the Scripture. IF the Scripture is NOT applicable to Christians, then the simple imperative of Christ; "If you love me you will obey my COMMANDS" has no bearing and I see no further help that can be offered of a Christian perspective that puts "God's will" ahead of human will or reason.

I wish you well. The tenets of MB will help, but YOU are the wrong person for us to be talking with for even that to help. ONLY the husbands and wives directly involved in the adultery can be helped by the MB tenets and advice for ending affairs and rebuilding their marriages.

YOU can learn the prinicples and they may help you, perhaps even in a role as an advisor, but not in the DOING that will be needed.

The rest, regarding the effects on the local church, are theologically irrelevant and practically unhelpable.

I sincerely hope it all works out well, but withoout the Standards of God, I am NOT optimistic.

God bless and good luck.

ForeverHers.
That is too strange that we were posting at nearly the same time. (And I haven't written for several days)
(My post is just above yours.)

I see by your message you were coincidently addressing what I was referring to...the first part of my post.

I think you and I both believe that the BIBLE is God's
Word in it's entirety and not to be picked and chosen
what parts to believe.

What do you think about if Luke actually told endures that sex with the preacher's wife was GREAT; telling these intimate details to the very woman that told his wife about his 'alleged' affair???

Does that seem strange to you?
What is the definition of a 'troll' on the marriage boards.
Is it someone that stretches the truth?

Celt - The short answer to your inquiry is that the Scripture is 100% the inspired word of God in its original writing. It is "literally" the the word of God, but it is NOT "ALL words are to be taken 'literally'." The Scripture makes use of all forms of writing, literal, figurative ,allegory, prose, poetry, etc.. One, for example, does not believe that God has "literal" wings like a bird, or other such phrases that have been employed.

However, the truths of the Scripture are quite real and literal. The commandments are NOT suggestions. There IS only one way to be reconciled to God, and that is Jesus Christ.

When God says, in Scripture, that Adulterers (who do NOT repent) will NOT be in heaven.....take that serious warning "to the bank," just as "do not eat from the tree in the center of the garden or you will surely die" was true.

Put it this way, Celt; If the Scripture is tossed out, WHAT is the basis of "belief?" WHAT is "believed in" and WHO is "believed on?"

Suffice it to say that the "liberal churches" are sliding into apostasy based upon NO "Rock" to anchor them. It is sad, but it is yet another fulfillment of prophecy....
"tickling the ears...."

God bless.

Hey there,

I don't have enough time to post, but will later.

Celt & FH, we could start another short thread to answer Celt. That way this thread won't get threadjacked and Endure's thread can stay on topic. I do think that FH has some very good things to say about this though.

Back to you later.

S&C

FH - are you serious?

You must not mean this "literally." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Otherwise, friends and family - and even strangers on this forum - cannot help those involved in adultery.

And those who have been fortunate enough to avoid being involved by adultery can certainly be helped by knowing MB tenets - to continue to avoid adultery.

FH - In your earlier posts to Endures you were anxious to help her and warned her that "un-Chriatians" were attempting to advise her on matters of both her Church and the affairees. The implication - She was better off listening to you. Now you're saying that you can't help her? Is this because her Church is the wrong kind of "Christian"?

For Celt - yep, it IS strange and weird for a WS, Luke in this case, to describe awesome sex with his affair partner to a person, male or female, trying to help. Strange and weird but typical. Very typical. AND - not related to whatever their faith might be.

This suggests again that you are not yet fully informed of the "disease" that is infidelity because nothing in this story is atypical. Also, we have not seen your story described. If I've missed it, perhaps you can direct me to it. Even a "heathen" or someone who doesn't believe humans and dinosaurs cohabitated can have useful information. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> For starters, see the links in my sig line below.

WAT, I am not going to get into this with you nor rise to your "baiting." Endures has chosen to NOT want the Scripture involved in any advice, and I am complying with her wish. I think she is WRONG, but it is HER thread, as I told you earlier on.

I will, likewise, NOT respond to your jousting about what I said about the MB tenets. THE point was, and is, that regardless of how much anyone outside of the marriage knows, ONLY the Husband and the Wife in the marriage CAN apply them and recover THEIR marriage, NO ONE else can "do it for them."

Back to the below zero weather....

Celt & Forever,
Again, I did not say we don't believe in the bible. Did you read that in my former post? We do not take take the Scripture (for the most part) in its LITERAL context. Yes, we believe that its scribes were God inspired. I suggest before you form opinions, you understand what I am saying. We read the Bible in worship services, we have Bible study, and so on. However, some denominations read and interpret the Scriptures exactly as they were written, others do not. Ours does not. As an example, some faith traditions read the story of Genesis and believe that Adam and Eve really existed. Others believe that the story of Adam and Eve is an illustration or a way of describing temptation and shame. But rather than debate this any further, I suggested (and still do), that you visit the website to get a better understanding of the denomination.
LJ

Celt,
You are one piece of work!! Luke is my dearest, best friend. But I don't condone his affair, no matter how much I love the idiot! Yes, I sat down and talked with Janet, and I'll never be sorry I did. I feel better for it. He sure as heck wasn't going to tell her! He was enjoying his new "love"! No, it isn't wierd at all that he said the sex was awesome! He didn't go into detail and was a little sheepish saying what he did say! He was trying to justify his affair.
I think you are itching for an argument and need ForeverHers to fan the fire with you. Forget it. Think what you want. I don't care what you think. I posted here because I hoped to get advice and feedback on the issue I was describing. You don't want to advise. You want to refute, defy, and accuse. Well, go ahead. Whatever turns you on. But I'm done with your pointless yammering.
LJ

Endures, I am out of town helping my aged parents and am unable to do more than sproradic reading, and less writing, on MB.

You requested no theology, and I am complying with your wish.

If you want to discuss that sometime, I will be happy to do so, but after I return home at the end of the week.

Regardless, the question I would ask is NOT if the Bible is read in church or at home. The question I would ask is "what parts are to be accepted as the literal word of God on the subject" AND which are "not literal" and not "God's Word" or binding upon a Christian. In short, WHICH parts and/or commands ARE applicable to ALL Christians and which are not.

I am NOT interested in whether someone believes in a literal Garden of Eden or not, with respect to Adultery and recovery of a marriage from Adultery.

BUT, I AM concerned about someone submitting their will and desires to God's commands, no matter what they are feeling BECAUSE it IS a command of God that is LITERAL and binding upon all Christians. For example, "Thou shalt NOT commit adultery," is not a suggestion or subject to interpretation or subject to a human's will or desire.

That an unrepentant Adulterer WILL NOT be in heaven is LITERAL and the TRUTH, God's truth. That truth is based on Scripture, hence my concern about what is "literal" and what is not, in your opinion or the opinion of the Church of Christ. Hence, my primary concern is for Luke's soul and for Kathy's soul, whether or not I might "like them." Unrepented Adultery would seem to say that they would fall into the class of people that Jesus will tell "away from me, I never knew you." Hence the warning of the Parable of the Sower. Be SURE of your faith....examine yourself....see if what you do is "of God" or "of Satan"....IS what I would want to say to Luke and Kathy.

Once the authority of Scripture begins to be "supplanted" by human "exception," the slippery slope begins and can accelerate into apostasy very quickly. It is also the subject of Jesus' warnings in Revelation to the Churches.

God bless.

Endures said: " Celt,You are one piece of work!!
Luke is my dearest, best friend. No, it isn't wierd at all that he said the sex was awesome! He didn't go into detail and was a little sheepish saying what he did say! He was trying to justify his affair.
I think you are itching for an argument and need ForeverHers to fan the fire with you. Forget it. Think what you want. I don't care what you think. I posted here because I hoped to get advice and feedback on the issue I was describing. You don't want to advise. You want to refute, defy, and accuse. Well, go ahead. Whatever turns you on. But I'm done with your pointless yammering."


Endures, my yammering is done. I have better things to do with my time. I am not itching for an argument,I just don't believe parts of your story! I will not be posting on this thread anymore.

Because I do not believe Luke told the very person that is telling ALL to his wife, that he thought sex with preacher's wife was awesone. He was a little sheepish when he said it. HAHA I guess he would be!

The reason I have doubts he told you this is he knew you would feel it your duty to go right to his wife and tell her what he said about the great sex. MAKES NO SENSE TO ME WHATSOEVER why he would tell you this. (He didn't tell your husband but YOU, a female.) TOO WIERD.

Continue on with your story, say anything you want; don't worry I will not be posting anymore.

Endures, for what it's worth, allow me to repeat that the story you have related is so so so typical of affairs and the actions of affairees. None of it is hard to believe for someone who is reasonably aware of infidelity dynamics.

It's also typical that those who have not had to deal directly with infidelity are understandbly unaware of how similar affair stories and affairee actions are to each other. I suspect this includes celt who has ignored my requests to tell his story. His questions and reactions suggest he is a bystander.

I will coninue to follow your posts and offer whatever I can regarding infidelity dynamics. As I've said, the actions of affairees are so similar that it won't take long for you to be as much expert as any of the rest of us amateurs here.

WAT