((((( justpeachy )))))

Yes you ARE dear lady. A "thumper" with grace and class. And your friend who stood for you in that prayer circle....what a precious friend to have.



The "essence" of Chrisian living, to live and stand on God's Standards, not the "worldview" of society.

God bless and keep you in His arms!

thanks.

It crushed me when I found out the ow stormed off and left. Showed me that she was there for "show" only. That she was not open to healing.

She was just laying the trap even deeper for my xh. At that time, she was trying to pretend she could be a good and decent wife AND STEPMOM to my child. funny, but ow2 tried the same thing.

So many here just do not get the extent of who or what they are dealing with.

To go so far to break up a family? That takes something. But to break it up takes even greater faith. My ds knows even at age seven...that his mommy did all she could do for daddy and their family. That daddy just couldn't do it. Mommy did though. And he knows who is there for him. It's me. He knows who to depend on. Me. And my ds knows that adultery is wrong. He learned this at sunday school and told a teacher a few weeks ago this...and it hurt hearing it...but the teacher said it was "good that he learned this lesson early so he will not do it in his adult life"...

my son to teacher: "I know why God says not to take somebody else's wife or dad. My daddy did that and it really messes things up. I hate going to his house and then back home. I don't really get along w/my step brother. I don't know my sister too good."

That's what my child said. He spends little time alone with his dad now. He does NOT like family values' son from a previous bf. That little boy is sweet, but they don't get along. Any ideas why? HIs dad never has much one on one time with his own child. He's being torn by fv's other son from bf, and their baby. Sad part, is my son said to me this week that he does NOT feel like their baby, IS HIS SISTER. He says he doesn't know much about her. That upsets me.

My son feels like a stranger in a strange land.

So if exposure can save your kids from a life like this...what is there to lose?

IF EXPOSURE WRECKS YOUR MARRIAGE THEN NOTHING WILL SAVE IT....period.

My xh was/is king of cakeaters here. Until he bottoms out he will not change. and sadly...I know now, ANY CHANGE IN HIM WILL NOT COME FROM ANY STIMULUS OTHER THAN HE LOSES HIS MONEY, COMPANY, OR LOOKS. It will have to be some ego crushing situation that comes to bring him down and maybe then have him change.

So expose away. Follow the plan to a T. Don't spend too long in plan A...but when you're in it, do a killer plan A. If no change, follow the plan to a T. Do a great plan B.

Look. Lemon knows this. NOBODY IS A TEXTBOOK. All WS react differently in affairs...although they say many of the same words...and do many of the same stupid actions. Nobody can predict what they'll do. Some come home. Some do not. In my xh's case, his MONEY was his perpetual giant pillow he'd fall down on...but then bounce right back up. It was his wealth that prevented him from feeling the pains some other WS feel that can actually imho bring them home. I think had he made less money, we'd be recovered sadly.

But then again, I am grateful for where in life I am now. And grateful to people like Lemonman here who do NOT PAD LIFE FOR ME EITHER...so I can fall down on my derriere and say OUCH...THAT HURTS...and get up so I can get going again. No padding. Just tough love. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Although a little padding (like a trip to carribbean, day spa) would be nice now and then for a busy working gal..who's on call right now...beeper/cell quiet amazingly! so that's great <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And yes...the negative energy will come back to you if you create it...or ignore it and think it will go away!

heck!

Why didn't I think of this before? The best analogy by far...the "IF I IGNORE IT PROBABLY IT WILL GO AWAY" medical scenario!

Exactly my point, to whose benefit would it have been to expose in my sitch? The only answer I can come with up with, is revenge to FWW and Om. At the expense of my sons and FWW.
Does anyone really see a benefit to this? I would argue with anyone who does, yet others are continuing to tell Lem he is 100% right.
IMHO, I totally disagree. There are times when exposure is all wrong and done for all the wrong motives.
I will stand on that point forever!
All Blessings,
Jerry

Wait a minute, Jer. We are talking about a general principle here and y'all are getting off into exception la-la land. Sure, some may argue that there are exceptional cases and make a good case, but that does not define the RULE. The exception does not define the rule. Nor does the exception invalidate the rule.

One can agree that there might be exceptional cases and still agree with the general principle that exposure is good, beneficial, and moral.

As far as one's "motives," I don't view that as a legitimate superceder to the victims right to know. Motives are irrelevent. Who gives a damn what the teller's "motive" is? It has nothing to do with the victims right to know. If the person should be told, they should be told, regardless of my "motives."

Look
[if Both persons are married during time of the A]
then there ARE 4 people in this Infidelity rectangle.

Sorry,
But IMO ALL parties AFFECTED by this Act are entitled to Know.

My goodness,
If I just happened to be the BS caught on the outside,
I'd sure want to know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

If my W has had OTHER A's ........yea, that's relevant information too. (and I mean relevant TODAY)

My goodness,
If you were that 4th person (and out of the Loop) ......you really wouldn't want to Know??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

(And thereby then have at least a fighting chance of improving your own M or life ......or at the least be able to make sound decisions based on accurate information).

So for those that don't Want to reveal,
your position is that YOU yourself,
would Rather NOT know about what your S has done or is currently doing??
Really?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I am always shocked by this attitude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
How sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately,
these fears and justifications,
are simply the same repackedged ones that you get Whenever you get even a newbie poster who's scared to death of Exposure.
"But what if, they might, ect,.."

No one can fix or heal what they don't know about.

If the BS's aren't going to look after one another, then who is?
The WS's?
Yea, good luck living your life with that theory.

Mel, I am not saying that the exposure rule is a bad thing. I am a huge proponent of exposure during an on goin A, or for that matter, anytime it will destroy A actions. I'm simply saying there are always exceptions to every rule. I have a problem saying that there are no exceptions to this rule, when, clearly there are. Therefore it is not a rule of 100% everytime.
I think my sitch, if anyone bothered to read it, was just such an exception. Doesn't AA step say make amends to all those whom you've harmed, except when doing so would cause more harm than good?
Same principal applies here.
Top Rope, you have clearly not read my previous post and should you care to do so, I think you would be hard pressed to build a valid case of who would benefit from exposure in my particular instance. If I am wrong about this, please feel free to enlighten why I was wrong in this case.
That being said, I am a very strong proponant of exposure; as long as it serves a good and useful purpose!
MVHO,
All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry, but no one has SAID there are not exceptions to every rule. That is just simple common sense that goes without saying. Again, you cannot use an exception to disprove the rule. [if it even is an exception, that is debatable]

The goal is not to define and debate EACH AND EVERY individual case in order to define a principle. That would be ludicrous.

And this is where we part company. I am in favor of warning someone when they are being harmed behind their back, regardless of the affair status. Their need to know does not die when the affair dies. There are many more reasons to expose an affair than my own selfish benefit.

If we only do good things when and if it personally benefits us, then that is a damning personal indictment. Do you only do good things when it personally benefits you? We can't claim to have any principle higher than profound indifference for our fellow man and selfishness if that is the case.

Selfishness is a principle, but certainly not one I would want to cultivate.....or speak about publicly.

Jerry....

I would like to point out to you that you don't know what the OM's W in your case would do with the information. Maybe she is sitting at home thinking, every now and then, "maybe I should have given our M another try...he only had 1 ONS." As is, knowing that he did have more, may be painful to her, but maybe it will definately put to rest for her that the decision to leave her husband was the right one.

Now, I am not saying that the above would happen, but it is as likely as the scenario you brought up.


I can tell you personally, I would want to know, even today (seeing as I am heading towards D) what my H was up to a year or 2 ago. I tell you honestly, I would want to know even 2 years from now(2 years or whatever after the D), what he was up to. the OM's wife in your case, may or may not feel the same as me, but I would want to know.


Daisy

First off, since when is exposing to the OP's spouse doing any harm? I propose, "honesty" in their relationship, no matter what the outcome, is good 99.99% of the time (leaving just a little wiggle room for the "exception" theory).

Second, we are talking about the BS exposing to the OP's spouse. The BS was not the addicted party nor has the BS harmed anyone by their choices. Only by withholding and keeping the "secret" do they actually become the perpetrators of "harm". Would not anyone in AA wish they had done "no harm" up front for which they had to make such amends for later?????

Infidelity is a plethora of mistakes and bad choices. Not telling is just another example of such.


No worries, Mr. Wondering



p.s. - threw in some extra """"'s and a double negative just cause it's a Lemonman thread anyway.

mel and daisy,
I am not truing to dodge any tough Q's here, but let me make the sitch perfectly clear. His W has D him and is now remarried to another M. Do you honestly think my telling her, is somehow, even remotely going to change things for her, and more importantlly, will not destroy 3 and 1/2 years of Recovery for me and my wife??
If you feel this way, let me know. I've have decided that if that is the general concenses is that I'm wrong, I will spend the 185 dollars and ask SH himself. If I do that, would you all accept his opinion?

All Blessings,
Jerry

No it is not, Jerry. AA does not advocate using excuses for doing the right thing. Warning a person they are living with a cheater is not "harm." Not warning her is "harmful."

Jerry,
I am telling you how I feel. You know how you feel, why would you need to call SH? Is this not the point Lem was trying to make, that there are some things we should know how we feel about without having to refer to the Harleys (or anyone for that matter)? If SH told you today that you do not have to tell, that would not change my position on it at all. Why should it? They do give good advice, I have talked to them myself, but they will not teach me what my moral code is. I have it, and I am ok with it. If you do not feel she needs to know, then do not tell her. You have your reasons. I am not trying to convince you of anything, I am only sharing what I believe and what I would do, I would tell.

But honestly, I do not see why you think that your recovery will suffer? That part is confusing to me. Maybe I don't see something because I am not in recovery.....

Furhtermore, if there is any "backlash" as you feel there might be from her finding out, don't you think your FWW needs to deal with it?

I do not have kids, so I don't know how I would feel about them finding out......I cannot put myself in your shoes....

Daisy

First off, exposure doesn't ruin marriages, affairs do. But in your case, if they are divorced, I wouldn't bother personally.

Jerry:

For the record, my original post was not talking about cases like yours. In your case, given the fact that the other party have divorced, I don't know if I would bother exposing to them now..."why bother" is right. This isn't the normal case and is not the point of my thread. Why do you feel that you need to spend 185.00 for someone to tell you that your are right. I am not quite sure why you got such in a tizzy about this.

I have yet to see a post that has logically explained how we as a BS in knowledge of an affair can morally withhold this information from the other offended party (other Betrayed Spouse)....Our own recovery and "motives" should have NO RELEVANCE...yet half the posts rationalizing this bring up that reason....gimme a break. Let me be a little more clear....as a GENERAL RULE (with extremely few exceptions), I believe that ONCE a Betrayed Spouse finds out about the affair, they have a moral obligation to inform the other betrayed spouse ASAP.....they should do everything humanely possible to give this information to the OP spouse, so they (OP-S)can MAKE their own decisions of what to do with it. It is NOT OUR RIGHT TO MAKE THAT DECISION FOR THEM. I REPEAT, IT IS NOT OUR RIGHT TO MAKE THAT DECISION FOR THEM !!!! The very fact that I see so many people still rationalizing this and finding many more exceptions than there really are is very sad....but predictable.

JustLearning, you know you are my MB idol and I am a "wanna be" of you.....but I have a question of you. You said I was up to NO GOOD with this....WHY would you say that? Is it bad, to question people on this? Trutfully, I don't understand where POJA has anything to do with this. The other betrayed spouse has the right to know this information.....if we know about it, and keep it "quiet" for own selfish and self serving motives....well then....we are hypocrites.....to the core.

For those, I do believe in Karma....I really do.

That is just my point. Indeed this ruffles some of the people who believe themselves to be of the highest integrity....yet could probably find a "marriage building" excuse why exposing is not right for all......Remember, once you know of an affair, your personal right to keep this private is withdrawn.....(With very few circumstances) there is no decision to be made.

I appreciate everyone's input. This is a good discussion, even if one's moral envelope feels insulted.

Lem

Lem, I think he was teasing because you are a rabble rouser and brought up a controversial topic. But a VERY GOOD topic! I am very glad you did and I betcha JL agrees since he never runs from controversy himself.

LOL.....well I wonder where he would ever get the idea that I was a rabble rouser... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem

**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't feel it is my "moral responsibility" to go tell anybody about a mess someone has made of their lives.

When WS and OP chose to have an affair, that did not immediately make me responsible for anything related to their bad choices. Period.

Does exposure help? 99.99% of the time, yes. Still not my "responsibility".

Would I want to know? Probably so. But I don't think I would think it was the other BS's "responsibility" to tell me. I would probably appreciate it, but not "expect" it.

I think a BS has a lot of pain and devastation to deal with and making them also "responsible" to expose is hogwash. I have seen the masses come at people to expose and get downright disrespectful if the BS doesn't go and do as their told right now. I remember one recently who was actually saying "hey, I know it will help, I see the benefits, I understand, but I'm not emotionally ready yet". And still they came after her to expose now! She had to repeat herself to get them to pipe down. And now, if she comes back to tell of a problem, I would bet she would get busted for "not following our advice" and "if you had done what you were told you would not be in this situation". Seen it happen over and over.

But, my main point is it is not my "responsibility" to tell the other BS.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and can live your life anyway you see fit...I happen to greatly differ with your sense of "responsibility"......and many others do also.....for that we can at least be thankful.

Thanks for the honest opinion.

Lem