Celt, personal attacks are against TOS and will likely get you into hot water with the MODS.

ML, apparently you cannot read for comprehension. I called the woman 4 times. If she doesn't want to take my call, or return it, at this point I owe her nothing. Yet you continue to grind your axe...on me.

Yawn.

I stand by everything I have said, and have no more to say to you. You're just not worth it.

celt...

I don't see why you would resort to name calling. If you don't like what she is doing, why do you do the same?

You don't have to agree with her, it is a free country. Mel not once called anyone here an "A$$"....

Mel,
I for one appreciate what you are doing. I do not think you are bine an "A$$" at all. I see you as persistant.....The discussion here has given me a lot to think about.

Penaltykill,
The OM's wife in your situation can be a witch. Fine. What bothers me from your post is that you somehow feel she did not have the right to contact your H. That she was only being vedictive. Why is her telling your H wrong? Is it not a fact that her telling your H would have no impact if your H already new about it? I confess that I don't know your whole story, I am only going on what I am reading here......


I do think your comment about her not having all the information as you had is a bit strange. Of course she does not have all the info. She was not there. As BSs we don't have all the info, we are lucky we have a few red flags here or red flags there sometimes. But that should not stop us from exposure.


Daisy

But can you stand by this statement without getting so upset and launching personal attacks?:

Thanks Daisy. I am reminded here of what happens when one does not have a solid argument; they must resort to personal attacks when they know the facts, reason won't serve their cause. Just the fact that they attack, exposes a weak and untenable argument.

But I do have a tough hide, too. I have raised [and buried 1] 2 teenagers, so not much phases me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And I DO work out almost every day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

PK,
Again I think her exposure would have had no impact had you told your H yourself. Don't you agree?

It just seems that you are very angry at this woman. If you see your H as being the only victim (which really is not true, OM's wife is a victim even if she has A's as well), then you could have prevented that had you been the one who was honest with him. You really should not be angry with the woman, IMHO.

Daisy

If I may say something,
Exposure, as I have learned on this forum, has one purpose and one only.It is used as a tool in Plan a to bust up an ongoing A. I thought that was what exposure was used for. I never really considered it as a tool for something about morality of the BS or anything like that.
This thread has brought to light a new component of exposure that I never really considered before. That somehow exposure is also used to cleanse and validate the BS/WS from the sin that has been commited to the OP's M.
I had no notion that Dr. H ever intended exposure to somehow be self effacing for either BS or WS. Am I reading this wrong?Frankly, he does not expound on this theory, and I think this tenet of exposure is the added theory is the manifistation of people who are on these boards.
for what it's worth.
All blessings,
Jerry

st, Harley is a full proponet of exposure to the spouse regardless of the state of the affair. Even if an affair is ended, the victim spouse needs to know about the affair.

They have a RIGHT to know. It is pertinent information about their life to which they have a RIGHT. It is cruel, manipulative and dangerous to not tell them.

So yes, there is much more reason to expose beyond just stopping the affair.


I do not know what you mean by this. Can you expound?

Here is what Dr Harley says about it:

From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Jerry,
Yes, the Harleys use exposure to end an ongoing A. I would be interested to know whether they would tell a FWS who never told his/her S about his/her A, that they should expose. If I was in US I would call the show and ask, but I am not.

We have gotten away from what the Harleys recommend to END an A. Yes, in PK case, the A was long over....she herself initiated NC. But, it seems to me that if she had exposed, the OM's W's exposure would have very little (if any) damage to her M. As is, her H had to find out 4 years later.....he chooses to forgive her A and the fact that she kept it a secret. PK is a very lucky woman.

Your case is different again....and I have said what I wanted to say on it yesterday.


I don't see what is wrong with Exposure after the A ended. I don't really care what the Harleys say on it. I respect their position on exposure during the A, agree with them. Don't know what their position is on exposure after the A ends. I guess we are getting into clouded waters here, becuase the A is over, we don't expose to bring the light of day on it. For me, I would expose, not to be vendictive, but to give the other person all info. Maybe I do look at it as too black and white, but since I would want to know, I would tell.

Daisy

Penalty,

Correct me if my perception is way off base, but I find it difficult to believe those phone calls and attempts to contact her were an attempt by you to apologize or offer an explanation at all. I believe, in your current state of thinking, she was 100% right to have avoided your contact.

I presume you are on Marriage Builders in an attempt to learn as you proceed through your own marital recovery. Which thanks to OM's W AND you couragously fessing up is apparently finally occuring in your marriage.

IMHO, Melody is not being condenscending...she is just right and knows it. She is attempting to instill her knowledge on to you. The great thing about this place is that though you may not "get it" today...Melody knows and is counting on the fact that her words will be preserved on this board so that you can come back and reread things from a new prespective one day when you do finally "get it". I have great hope for you because if you weren't conflicted you'd have no reason to take the responses here with such hostility. However, even if you never do "get it", at least others, perhaps further along in the recovery process than you, have learned from her words.

In spite of OM's W's perceived or actual motivations, the OM's W in your instance did you, your marriage, and your family a huge favor. I hope you get the opportunity and understanding to thank her one day for what she did for you. I also commend you for coming clean when you, admittedly, could have maintained the walls of denial.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I may have misread or inferred incorrectly but did you say that back when you and OM were together in your affair you knew OM's W was having or had had an affair and you said nothing to OM? Please clarify.

Mel,
Thanks! Great post....


This is exactly what bothers me about my H's actions. It is what he really things of me by keeping all his past actions to himself.....He had me believe he was one way, when he was really manipulating me!

Daisy

Harley NEVER makes exposure to the victim-spouse contingent upon the state of the affair.

In fact, in the example from the article above, the affair had already ended. He states that: "it's the first step toward marital reconciliation." THAT is the reason for exposure to the BS.

That is because a marriage cannot be rubuilt on a LIE. The truth must be known in order to rebuild the marriage.

Harley makes it pretty clear in that article I posted above that he believes the BS has a RIGHT to this information. He does not make that exposure contingent upon the state of the affair, but states it as general principle. He states that it is CRUEL and manipulative to NOT tell the BS.

Lem....

At first I missed your post to the "pen and ink" question I had.....

It always amazes me what people collect <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I got no such passion, so cannot directly relate. My father collects country music records, has 7000 all over his house, so I have seen the collectors mind at work first hand..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
It always amazes me, but nevertheless I am a little jellous, as I got no such passion. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />.....

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Celt,
I don't feel this way at all and if you had been around these boards a little longer, you would know that Mel is shoot from the hip truthful person.
Your assumption is disresptfull and unwarranted.
It would seem that you've never been in the position of feeling completely destroyed by infidelity. I hope you never have to face it.
Having said that, when one does have to face it, there could be no better person than Mel to set you straight in your ensuing line of Bs that you will eventually encounter.
All Blessings,
Jerry

{{Jerry}} <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

edited to add: Thanks to {{Mr W}} <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WD, where do I say that I am angry w/this woman? Saying that she did a vengeful and vindictive thing is much different than saying I am mad at her.

There were no red flags. Here is the story: After I had seen OM for the first time, I was very upset. I told someone who was a close friend that I had been to his house, and left before the deed occurred, in tears. I was very troubled. I told the friend nothing more. The A began after that. No one knew.

Years later, this friend of mine was no longer a friend. She and her H were divorced, due to her infidelity and alcoholism. She was and is an active alcoholic who endangered her children on a regular basis. I was the legal guardian of her daughter and son should she and her ex-husband decease - the children had asked for this and had grown being at my house quite a bit. I found the daughter's blog in a link from my daughter's. The daughter, in her blog, was drinking, smoking pot and having casual sex, all under her parent's noses. She said: "I have begun to substitute casual sex and drugs for love and affection". I will never forget that sentence.

I told my ex-friend's H, with whom my H and I are good friends. I could not trust the ex-friend to do the right thing. She allowed her daughter and friends to drink in the house while she was off with her own BF, among other things. Perhaps you could call it benign neglect. I knew that the daughter's grades were suffering.

My ex-friend, in retaliation for what I told her H, told the OM's wife (who was divorced from her H already). She knew I had been in the house and left. That was all she knew. The OM's wife called my H.

Don't think I didn't realize what I was risking when I told my ex-friend's H about his daughter. I took the chance, because there was a child at risk.

There were no red flags. No one knew an A had begun and ended long ago.

When my H asked if I had been in their house I told all. It was not pretty.

Yes, I should have been honest with my H long ago. I feared that my entire family would suffer for my bad decision to have sex with someone else eight times.
I was scared. I had young children.

Where have I said that I was right? Where?

But as I *have* said, no one will convince me that the OM's wife did the right thing. No one. It *was* petty and vindictive. She had no marriage to save. The act served no purpose other than to harm. She did not want the truth, or she would have taken my calls or returned them. So please spare telling me what I owed her.

Many of this woman's friends are no longer her friend. They do not believe that she did a good thing. No therapist that I visited believed that she did the right thing.

ML, where are my "personal attacks" on you? You have insulted me when you disagreed with me. I disagree with your approach, and have been civil. You continue to berate me.

I have no wish to discuss this any further. Exposure a la MB, is for ending A's. Period. Further reason for exposure is *not* outlined in MB, precisely because of all the gray areas. It is not a black and white world.

I much prefer what Just Learning has to say about things, which is detailed in the thread I linked in my original post.

I don't see what the love fest is with Melody Lane. I don't like the woman and I make it a point to take disparagging shots on her whenever I get a chance. Personally, I'd like to take her out behind the woodshed.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh $hit....that probably does not sound so good now that I have reread it.

LM :smirk

This is the exact reason why I am where I am today !! Well, that and the fact that he could not/would not give her up and kept playing me ?? See, I still do not know what the heck has/is happening in my marriage.

So, for that very reason.. as my son would say

I am

O

U

T

And, actually feeling pretty darn good about it. In fact, my hand is hurting from patting myself on the back !!!

Not only is my WH a liar and a cheater.. he is a chicken too. Boy, I sure know how to pick 'em....


My very best to you - car

Buhloney. Nowhere does he say that the only purpose to inform a spouse is "to end the affair." NOWHERE does he advocate deceit, as you suggest. Here is what he DOES SAY:


AND


Exposure is for marital reconcilation as you can plainly see in the article written by Dr. Harley above. NOWHERE does he ever advocate deceit, as you suggest.

There can be no reconcilation in a marriage that is built on lies and deceit. Further, as Harley states, it is CRUEL and manipulative to continue to deceive a spouse about your affair. He calls those that do: "dangerous."

Concealing an affair from a spouse is compounding the crime by adding a whole new level of deceit and fraud to the mix. The BS has a RIGHT to know what is happening in his own marriage so that he can make the decision whether or not he chooses to stay married to an adulterer. He also must know it so he can understand that his spouse is not to be trusted.

So don't try and tell anyone that Harley advocates lying about affairs, he does NOT.

You LOVE wrassling with me, admit it, yankeeboy!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />