On feb 1 I let my WW spouse know that I would not let things continue the way they are indefinitely, that she cannot fince sit for ever. I did not make any demands or tell her she had to do anything, I just let her know things were not acceptable the way they are right now that the ball was in her court & she would have to choose which direction it will be going.

I haven't as of yet followed this up with anything as of yet because I wanted to let it stew for about a week & than she got sick. she is getting comfortable with the way things are because of the changes I have made & acknowledges those changes but there is nothing changing as far as the R goes, I have nothing more than a roommate & I feel that I have to let her know what Im feeling about where our M is at & that I wont live this way I deserve to be loved & cared about. I don't expect her to have to do anything, I cant make her do anything & Im not trying to she has to do that of her own free will.

Im getting to the point where I need things to move in a direction one way or the other, she is a big conflict avoid er & never has any input or suggestions about anything. When asked about what she is feeling or if she has any ideas of things we can do to move on she says nothing.

I would like to get your input on how to handle this, even my IC is at a loss of what should happen next & loosely suggested I should throw in the towel & hes for trying to save A M at all cost, she has from the start never had any consequences for the A because of the way I handled things in a calm & understanding way & no one that she cares about there opinion of her knows about the affair, whats next?

Cliff

Hi,

Once you set the expectations, it is not wise to leave it up to the WS.

What are your perosnal boundaries? What is your plan? Can you call Jennifer C @ MB?

L.

I not sure I was setting expectations, I was just stating that our current situation, lack of companinship communication etc in the M was not acceptable to me, I was not expecting her to do anything about it, just letting her know I wasn't happy with the situation & was not going to stick around forever while she made up her mind.


I guess my biggest one right now is time, how long am I willing to stay in a one sided marriage.


basically my plan is do plan A, there is NC. Im not really sure what else I can do with out her making some sort of commitment. I have been working on myself a lot over the last 3 1/2 months everyone including her has commented that the changes I have made ( she has also stated she is not sure if the changes are genuine or if they will last) my IC thinks I have done a great job & cant believe how calm & understanding I have been.

yes but Im not sure it will do any good without the WW participation.

Im open to any suggestions that anyone may have.

Cliff

Listed below is my input on the questions I asked:

1. Setting expectations:
a. No longer waiting for the Ws to change.
b. Making changes for yourself and your family.
c. You notify her that 'if' she decides to come back to
the family, then and only then will you and the family
'think'about recovery.
d. The family no longer revolves around the WS.
It revolves around the needs of the family.
c. WS' don't fit with a family arrangement. A wife and
mother does.

2. My suggestion:
a. Call Jennifer ASAP. Worth more than you know.
Jennifer will help you formulate a plan for u 1st and
for the M 2nd. Jennifer is worth every penny.
b. If you can afford it, it w/b time and $$ well spent.

3. When the WS babbles stuff like, 'not sure if your
changes/improvements are genuine'. Babble back: Mine
are, when will yours be?


Never allow the WS to give you any guilt from the A.

Learn to reverse babble.

Go read Love must be tough by Dr James Dobson.

L.

basically my plan is do plan A,

why would you do plan A if you already have are doing plan A....

why not Plan B...
where you say your indecision is really a decision....

and therefor I decide as well..
that I am not interested in a marriage of room mates...

unless you are...

you want things to change...yet it sounds as if your plan is to do that same thing you have been doing...

why give such declarations unless your plan is to decide that you can live like this...

time for plan B...
time for the reality of her choices to come home to roost..

ARK

ark - I think the answer to this is because the affair is over and NC is established. Unless you're advocating a post-affair Plan B.

If the affair is REALLY over, I say Plan A isn't the right call either - assuming you actually did a good one to begin with.

Why did the affair end? Is it because your wife came to her senses, or did OM drop her and she defaulted to you? It can make a difference, I think.

I'll ditto Orchid and say drop your IC (who is out of ideas and just taking your money) and try one of the MB counselors. Why not? Don't expect your wife to participate - don't even ask her until the MB counselor gets YOU going in a good direction.

I have zero experience with post-affair marital recovery, so that's the sun total of what I can offer.

I wish you well.

WAT

anyone who refuses counseling in my opinion is NOT committed to recovery...

I wouldnt choose to live that way....

I think can plan B can be for fence sitting whether contact or not...

I dont know..being an action type of girl..the thought of staying in limbo is torture..

ark

It is! I was there for many years pre-affair.

How to do Plan B here? Can't make her move out. Foolish and neglectful for him to move out.

WAT

First let me thank everyone for taking the time to reply.

Orchid,
On expectations, you have pointed me in the right direction I was afraid to make statements like these without checking here first that's why I left it where I did, I didn't want to come across as making demands. I will try to call Jennifer & see what she has to say about everything. About reverse babble Im learning it as fast as I can.

Ark,
I have been thinking along the lines of what you suggested, Im just trying to figure out how to put it without sounding like Im making demands. I will see what Jennifer has to say about it.

WAT,

The OM did drop her to try & fix things with his wife so she did default to me, said she is staying because she didn't realise how I felt & wants to see if her feelings come back but doesn't feel like she has to do anything the help them come back. For example I have not asked in a while but she refused to fill out the EN questionnaire because she would fell uncomfortable with me trying to fulfill the main ones @ this point.


Everyone thank you once again for taking the time & making the effort to help, since I told her about things not continuing like this for ever the has been a little progress but I still don't feel like she will talk about R issues she is more into sweeping things under the carpet & hoping they will fix themselves or magically go away. As far as plan A I know It doesnt really fit the situation but its all I could think of to try plus it basically what my IC suggested doing.

Cliff

bump

I have been thinking along the lines of what you suggested, Im just trying to figure out how to put it without sounding like Im making demands. I will see what Jennifer has to say about it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />cute very cute...

I will let my own boundaries be used as a weapon against me..

I will let my wife use my need to not live as room-mates be turned in to a selfish demand on my part...

I will live without any personal boundaries to save my wife from seeing that I alone value myself first....

now thats what I call a heavy heave fog..visited upon by a BS...

if I stake claims of what is intolerable in MY universe...

my spouse may see them as selfish demands..

dayum straight its selfish to want to live a life of being doing and giving to another...and receiving and getting from another...

THANK GOD theres a lot of selfish people willing to do that for eachother...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />ARK

Ark, Im getting confused or I miss understood what you were trying to teach me in an earlier post here's the link.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2904635

If I understood you correctly in this post you suggested not making any demands, did I not understand what you were trying to tell me ?

Cliff

Cliff,

Take a look at how you asked Ark to explain herself. Did you notice you may or not be confused or you may be insulted by her post but you still asked her to clarify.

That was good. Now go use that type of logic on your WS. If she doesn't answer, let it go. The point is you will have put that question or doubt in her mind and you need to let it work it's way into her conscience so she can answer. The answer may be given in any form. Expect the WS to answer you with rage, anger, scarcasm, dead silence, etc. Doesn't matter how she answers you, you just let her hear herself and keep mum.

A well posed question can say more than a heated arguement and takes less effort. So go work on your questions and learn to walk away. Let her come to you. She will...... in time. If not, it will make moving forward w/o her easier.

L.

I have been thinking along the lines of what you suggested, Im just trying to figure out how to put it without sounding like Im making demands. I will see what Jennifer has to say about it.

cliffy..

what I am trying to say is that you should not be afraid that making a boundary...

I will not live as room-mates...my desire is to live with you in an equal loving relationship...

that is NOT a selfish demand..
it is YOUR boundary
it is your goal
it is your expectation..

it is not selfish
it is not wrong..

people don't say..

I wish to live a marriage of room-mates and terse civility...
that is my dream...

I think you are getting to caught up in her reaction or counterpoint...when there is no need to concern yourself with what/when she perceives your boundaries to be demands...

they are far from it..

ARK

I don't think anyone has commented on this bit of information. Did you expose this affair? According to you no she cares about knows....why not? So before Plan B (which would be the logical step if the affair remains entrenched) the next step to me....is exposure. And please chere....don't tell me you can't. Is the OM married? His wife is the first person to call. Then your wife's parents and siblings. If that has no effect....you'll have to do a wide exposure that puts pressure on the affair.

Orchid,
first let me state for the record that I never get insulted or mad @ any advice or suggestions Im given on this board by anyone especially by people that I have asked for their advice & opinion. I was never insulted by Ark & meant no disrespect to anyone, this is a learning process for me & sometimes my fog or thick skull can get in the way of my learning.

Ark,
Thank you for clarifying it is clear that I miss understood what was said in the earlier post & Im sorry for that with everything that's going on it can take me a little while to "get it"


Star*fish,
I have wondered if exposure to her parents would help, I would be breaking a promise to her that I made that I would not though & my IC does not think it would help.

I do need to clarify something that you may have missed before you reply though. NC was established 10/25/05 On D day when I found out(prior to MB) I gave them both a choice
they could continue with their actions & be together & I would get a D but he had to expose to his W as it was not fair to her. It was also said that if they ended the A I could careless what he did as long as he left her alone & left us to work on thing, so basically she came back to me by default because the OM chose to expose the A to his wife & try to work on their M the last contact I had with him his W had kicked him out of the house & he was trying to fix things with his W. She says she is here because she did not realise that I actually cared, but feels that she doesn't have to do anything until her feelings start to come back if at all.


I want to make it very clear that I respect what everyone has to say & value there opinions. I understand that everyone who answers my posts is doing so with a kind heart & good intentions, I also understand that know one has to answer or take the time out of their day to be here helping it is appreciated,

THANK YOU

Cliff

Thanks for the additional information Cliff. I misunderstood "fence sitting" to be ongoing contact with OM rather than withdrawal and inaction. Okay....so now that I "get it"....I think as long as no contact has been established, and the other BS knows....I wouldn't further expose just because she's just not working hard enough on the marriage. In fact, I'd advise against it....it will look punitive....and will serve very little purpose.

It sounds like you're struggled with more exposure because you feel that you missed the chance to have additional consequences as a result of more folks she cared about putting pressure on her. Since the purpose is to end an affair.....and this one's ended.....using it for the purpose of creating more shame is unlikely to do much more than destroy more love. You CAN encourage her to expose it herself to someone she trusts who can help her. But exposure really does very little to make the WS re-invest in the marriage, even though it's pretty good at ending affairs, it's not really too good at rebuilding them....which is why it's best done and understood early on....not after the fact.

So, none of that answers your REAL question which is I now understand...."What to do next if she doens't re-invest in the marriage....ever?" Well, you can continue to use patience and hang on and see what happens....all the while making sure that you've done your best to stop the LBs and offer the marriage as an attractive union. Or, if you find you can't go on, have lost all steam, are getting depressed yourself, or losing love for you spouse....it might be time to consider a higher risk strategy like Plan B. Or, you might try some of the other programs like Retrouvaille that are really good at short, concentrated, "reconnection" type weekends that I've seen really helpful for many couples. Another strategy that I think is really pretty effective for BSs whose WWs haven't "re-engaged" is the 180 Divorce Busting strategy that Michelle Weiner Davis uses.

hope that gives you some stuff to think about.

No problem Star*fish, I had asked about the 180 divorce busting before here http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

but never really got a response I do feel like Im getting to the point where I feel like this

"if you find you can't go on, have lost all steam, are getting depressed yourself, or losing love for you spouse"

Im very tempted to give her an ultimatum between D & committing to try in the M. the options I have in mind for her to try are the surviving an A book, the EN questionnaire which she has refused in the past Or the best option counseling which she has also refused. What do you think about it?

thanks for taking the time

Cliff

Orchid: Cliff, thanks for your clarification. Please understsand I am a woman posting to a man and you know how the communication lines c/b crossed even without the stress of difficult subjects such as an A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Now it is ok to feel insulted or hurt. How we individually choose to react once those feelings are thrust upon us is the key. You seem to have a good attitude and this will help you heal quicker.

Btw, I don't know or think your skull is thick but sometimes that c/b protection. LOL!!! Still wear a helmet when necessary. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> MB is a kind of M helmet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Orchid: The goal is to make you feel safe. Breaking a promise to a WS or WS attitude is going to happen. If the Xws isn't making you feel safe as an H, then you have t/d what you need to feel safe. This c/b a gauge for you to see where she is really at.

Here's why (providing the expsoure is done in the right way with the right agenda and attitude (whether the recipients appreciate it or not):

1. If she gets mad at the exposure, she is still a WS. WS don't like exposure. They hate it like dracula hates daylight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

2. If she feels hurts and cries but undertsands, your W maybe trying to climb out of the Xws' skin. Not totally out but trying. This is a good sign.

3. If she is angry at herself, cries, and asks for your forgiveness and help...... the Ws has been almost snuffed out and your W is getting her control back.

See how she reacts is your gauge more than what she says. Keep those thoughts in your back pocket and you have a powerful tool. Just have to teach you what to say and how to act so you can gauge her status w/o her babble.



Orchid: You gave them a choice but it was up to each of them to decide. See how the BS doesn't control everything....yet?



Orchid: If the OM choose to really expose to his W, he is closer to recovery than your WS. If that is true. If your Ws came back by default, recovery is doable but she has to expend extra effort to overcome her rejection issues from the A. Unfortunately that often means the BS gets the brunt of more depression and babble. You have to learn how to NOT allow that to overtake your personal recovery plan.



Orchid: Yea, some truth mixed in w/babble. That's like saying, my arm is bleeding but I won't take any first aide action until I see it start to repair itself. I will leave the dirt and germs there as is until I see the wound closing. Does that make sense to you? :rollingeyes:



Orchid: Good. Respect is good. Just work on keeping you healthy and in a good plan.

Have you read His needs/Her needs? Ever talk to Jennifer @ MB? She is great working with BSHs and WSWs.

take care,
L.

Orchid, what ddo you think of my last question of star*fish?

Im very tempted to give her an ultimatum between D & committing to try in the M. the options I have in mind for her to try are the surviving an A book, the EN questionnaire which she has refused in the past Or the best option counseling which she has also refused. What do you think about it?

Cliff