Eav, you are right on the money.

I for one am really glad we are discussing this. I first reg'd at MB in 1999 as a WS and was treated with universal love and compassion. Not that I wasn't called to task from time to time, but it was done with respect and compassion.

That provided me with an environement that encouraged me to face my responsibilities to my wife and helped me work through a lot of things.

I've noticed over the years that the 'tone' of these boards has changed and it hurts me to see people whose marriages could have been potentially saved driven off by the vitriol of nasty and rude posters.

Like I said, I'm glad this issue is being addressed. To be sure the mods and admin have a huge job to tackle. When I first joined, the boards were still new and the poster base was very small compared to what it is now. Still I'm glad and grateful for these wonderful people who volonteer their time and care to help keep things on track.

We should all pitch in and get them a gift basket or something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think opinions backed up by facts, figures, examples, and citations from recognized sources have a better chance of influencing others. Just my opinion, of course.



And a very good opinion, Longhorn. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Sincerely,
K.D.'s Heartbreak

Maybe it would be helpful if those who have been on the board for a while and have been through the MB process and either recovered their marriage or divorced can give a link to their story or write their story and be able to post it. I think it would be helpful to new people if they knew the background of the person advising them what they should do.

Everyone should be able to post their opinion as they see it and also to give encouragement to anyone. But when someone posts to a new person with the...ok here is what you need to do attitude...then I feel like they should have to at least provide what they went through and what helped and what didn't help for them now that they are recovered or divorced.

For instanceI I feel like I can voice my opinion on a situation because I am a smart person who can think and reason, but I do not feel qualified to tell someone what they should do in Plan B for instance or even when to go to Plan B because I have not done that.

To me when I read Mimi's story or Lemonman's story it made me appreciate where they were coming from in their advice. Much more so than someone just telling me how much they know...share with me your personal journey then I can relate better to that.

I guess that is my long winded opinion and my way of saying that everyone has something valuable to contribute to anyone, but if you want someone to follow what you say then you should be able to back up your words. We are talking about people's lives here. Everyone needs to take what they hear here and apply it accordingly to their own situation.

I think it would be helpful if a staff member of MB posted on the forums from time to time. But that is just my opinion!

i would love it if Jennifer Harley would post here once in awhile...she has helped me so much

i wish others could benefit from her wisdom also but i know the cost is a big factor

I don't post a whole lot, but I look for Mel's posts. She is a no-nonsense kind of person, and I think that many of us need exactly the straight-forward, no-nonsense advice that she gives out. I don't find her rude at all...just absolutely honest and very often as funny as all get-out!

I also don't post a lot (as you can see by my stats!). But, I have lurked around here since the fall of 2003. Though I have gained insight from many people's situations and points of view, I have to say that I came to look for Pepperband, MelodyLane and Lemonman for no-nonsense opinion and/or advice. There are others that don't come around much anymore that I also looked for, like Gimble and BobPure, but that seems to be for a different reason.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> HEYLADY...

fall of 2003...
13 posts...

better catch up

Slacker..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

ARK

OK, THAT WAS REALLY FUNNY!!!!!

come on guys, lighten up. yes we want to save our marriages and improve ourselves, which includes improving how we talk to each other too. for the record, i liked the playground comment, to me it sounded exactly as it was meant, an attempt to let you all know you are not being harshly scowlded.

see the thing is, especially because we cannot "hear" inflection of the poster, or see the rest of their body language, who you "hear" a post has a lot to do with how YOU choose to hear a post!!!

yes, some words are so obviously rude, but still, do you choose to hear those words as coming from a person who is just rude in their core or from a person who may be hurting???

something to think about, don't you think???

and if you practice doing that here, choosing to listen with compassion, empathy, or whatever word you choose that makes you come out of yourself and really look at the other person's perspective, just think about how much that habit can help you in your marriage or any other real life relationship.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!

one more thing: all the mods here ROCK, all the long-time posters ROCK, all the newer posters ROCK. and sometimes, (only sometimes) i almost can get myself to say i rock (but that's a totatlly different issue, HI JL).

i'm in.

Doing counseling has increased my awareness of how people hear, listen, perceive things differently.

An example:

A client comes into my office for a session. It's getting near the end of the session time. These are the varied reactions I have gotten from different people.

1. A client initiates a comment about "I see it's near my time to end." They proceed to stand up, grab their coat, walk to the door, walk out to the desk and set up another appointment.

2. A client notices me taking a glance at my watch or a clock and says "Oh, it's time for me to end now." They stand up, grab their coat, walk to the door...........

3. I have done #2 with no notice on behalf of the client. I say to them, "We need to finish up now. Our session time is up for today." They go "Oh, ok. I hadn't noticed." They stand up, grab their coat, walk to the door......

4. I have done # 2 and #3 and the client gets on their coat, goes to the door, and continues to stand in the doorway talking about whatever, saying "I know it's time to go, but......". They continue to talk until I prompt them with "Yes it's time to go. I'll see you next week."

5. We have gone through #2, #3. This time, however, the client doesn't get up or acknowledge my comment that it's time to go. I have to prompt them again. "That sounds like something we can talk about next week, but now it's time for you to go. My next appointment is waiting." They continue to talk as they stand up, put on their coat, walk to the door, linger in the door, and I have to walk over to them in the door and repeat, "We can discuss that next week. You need to leave now." They walk slowly down the hall, looking back. I say again, "I'll see you next week" and go back inside my office.

6. Prompts from # 2 and 3 have occurred. The client continues to talk. Doesn't acknowledge my comment in any way. Keeps on talking as I repeat my prompt that it's time to leave, that we can discuss it further the next week, that I have another client waiting, etc. They continue sitting in the chair, maybe say "Oh yes", and continue to talk and sit in the chair. I prompt several more times with no response. I finally walk over to the chair and say "You need to go now...Let me help you on with your coat." They stand and I assist with their coat. They stand there, not moving, and continue to talk. I prompt them again about leaving, ending the session. They continue to stand. I walk over to them, touch their arm, and walk in the direction toward the door, with them very slowly following. They stand in the door and talk. I prompt them again that we need to end the session...etc... They stand in the door talking...and talking. Finally I say, "You have to go now. You need to leave right now." Then I still have to walk them down the hall, my hand gently under their elbow, and direct the office assistant to set up another appt. with them. They continue to try and carry on a conversation with me going back down the hall. I walk into my office and shut the door.

My first client would have been terribly hurt if I addressed them in the way I spoke with anyone else.

My second client would have been hurt if I addressed them in the way I spoke with # 3, etc.

My third client would have been hurt if I addressed them in the way I spoke with ..........

And on and on...

I became very uncomfortable at levels 5 and 6. I would normally never speak that blatantly, or physically assist a client out of my office. I was concerned about how it may have impacted client 5 and 6. Then I realized, they never even "heard" me until I elevated my message to levels 5 and 6. So what I and others might perceive as "rude" or aggressive, was their starting level of perception. Number 1 would have been devestated at levels 3, 4, 5, 6....

This is the reason that I believe tolerance of others ways of presenting info, sharing thoughts and opinions, etc., is needed. A level 1 person may not be able to hear feedback from a level 3, 4, 5, 6, person due to their hurt and/or shame. A level 6 might only hear feedback if hit over the head with the proverbial 2x4. If a person has expressed that they don't need to be "beat up" respect it. If a person says "Bring on the 2x4!", go for it, if that's your style.

It's my value that if the level of perception is unknown or uncertain, start at a level of greater sensitivity. Then move up if they don't seem to hear, perceive, etc., and are still seeking feedback.

There's been enough hurt, anger, sadness, in all of our lives.

Heartmending, taking someone's arm and assisting them to the door while still talking to them is a VERY GOOD COMMUNICATION SKILL.

I saw this in action the other day when my young (23 year old) assistant did this to a student who would not stop talking even though my assistant was extremely busy.

I was really impressed. My assistant stood up from his desk and said "wow, that's great", "gosh, yes what a good idea" and meanwhile had him by the elbow and was moving him towards the door.

No one was offended, my assistant could get on with his job and the student felt listened to.

Excellent post heartmending. Excellent. I don't think I have seen it explained better.

Tempest

IME people exposit opinions and they expect others to AGREE with them, not just be kind about them. When people's opinions are forcefully disagreed with or worse, demosntrated to be incorrect some people's sensitivity to 'rudeness' increases enormously presumably out of embarassment.

IMO being 'kind' about a persons incorrect and even dangerous opinions is the worst kind of condescension. "thats nice dear".

When a person avocates actions that are contrary to those which Harley espouses and that have been proven to fail in sit after sit, it is a kindness to point out to that person why the opinion is wrong IMO. Politley, if possible, sure.

I was advised very forthrightly not to expose, not to plan A, not to police my own personal boundaries and in fact not to bother at all with trying to save my marriage....over the months. The very things that have probably saved my marriage. Some of the same wise heads who have been slated recently or their combative attitude dismissed such talk, grabbed me by the collar and dragged me to doing the right thing. Was I p1ssed at the time ? Heck yes, but I learned RIGHT FAST.
Tempest PLEASE continue to police decency and politeness between posters, but PLEASE don't allow crackpot ideas to be offered the same credence as Harley-proven ones.

Thanks.

Tempest,
Here's bob's good words: "IME people exposit opinions and they expect others to AGREE with them, not just be kind about them. When people's opinions are forcefully disagreed with or worse, demosntrated to be incorrect some people's sensitivity to 'rudeness' increases enormously presumably out of embarassment."

That being said, I don't expect many to agree with my views. I don't particularly like to hold hands (*although I do support people well)or make them feel warm and fuzzy when they are up against some of the hardest and most cruel situations that they will ever come up against in their lives.

I am not going to agree with somebody if I perceive that the advice is doing further harm to an already harmed BS. I just won't. I will try to be kind to the BS who is undergoing the crisis always. Supportive yet offering concrete thoughts and applications when I can.

When we pat somebody on the back, basically tell them what they want to hear (your WS will return, you're doing good, etc)does that do any good? No. Not at all.

From what I've been told, this and discussions like this have been going on for some time. And will continue to go on as posters come and go...eventually I will go. Don't know when...but my soul will tell me when to move on. Until then, I just want to help as I can. Help people heal when able, and help them to wake up and smell the coffee when needed also!

For me, offering an opinion isn't abut trying to convince someone that my way is the right way...or right opinion. It's about sharing a viewpoint that I have found helpful. The sharing isn't to convince someone to change or to see it my way, but to offer another way of looking at something. If it's helpful to someone else, good. If not, that's ok, too. It's not my intent to prove myself "right" or "wrong"....anymore than it is to try and prove my feelings as being right or wrong.

We are all adults on this forum. We are responsible for how much or how little we choose to listen to varying opinions. If there's someone whose opinions and/or style of presentation has been helpful, then ignore othter's feedback and go with your own instincts.

Heartmending, this is one of the BEST posts I have read on these forums so far. This was an absolute wonderful, accurate and articulate post... EXCELLENT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The above quote if from Melodylane's response to 2BNormal's thread on whether or not she should contact OMW. Circumstances irrelevant, issues irregardless...this is an attack and needs to be addressed as such.

Calling posters shallow and moral cowards is the best way to run people off this site and prevent them from getting the help they need. This needs to end.

I agree as well. THIS needs to end! Thank you for posting this Owl!

Owl and 2B,

Send a message about the post to one of the Mods privately. "Tattling" on a public thread just smacks of coaxing people to take sides...

How do you send a PM to a mod? I would have taken that route but didn't know how to send a PM to one.

At the bottom of the forum page are the mods names listed. Each name is a link to their profile, and their email address.