You stated,

Is it bad that I don't want my H to have an affair? Is it bad that I am ashamed of him for obviously lying to me which has lead me to snoop?? Does he have the right to be angry with me for snooping? Should I just accept the affair and move on?? Or do I fight for the marriage??

I am struggling with this decision. I feel you give very valuable advice here and I am asking you this very seriously...

I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place and my personal indecision is what is actually hurting the situation the most...

Alison,

Keepmovn4wrd's mantra of self respect(he may not call it that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />) works 100% of the time. Does that mean it will save all M's ?... definitely not. But even if it fails, you walk away from it with that self respect intact.

Alison, what is bad is your H lying to you and cheating on you...not your snooping. Snooping is not a bad thing though I know it makes us BS feel bad about ourselves. If you H had nothing to hide you would have no reason to snoop. In fact if he truly wants to heal your M he will give you full acces to all email and phone records.

That is exactly what I want - My self respect back. Everytime I open my mouth I lose my self respect because I know the words I say only push him away...

I have so many questions for keepmovn - I hope he comes back soon!

I have been reading all of keep's posts and I agree that what I am doing right now is not working, so it is time I did something different...

Hurry keepmovn!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You aren't pushing him away. He is choosing to walk away. We don't get to control other people's actions, only our own. How he takes and handles your words are his decision.

The whole concept of not ever checking up on a spouse is an interesting one. I believe my wife had that right up until she walked all over that freedom. I'm sure many others loved that way, right up til they had their hearts broken.

RookKev,

I think we are on the same page about Keeps "Plan" especially as it relates to Allison. Allison, how about implementing Plan A and MB principles fully, as you have been advised instead of trying to do it your own way and/or switching gears mid-stream? From what I remember of your thread you have been all over the place emotional and SWITCHING plans over to a "Self-Confidence" or Tough Love Plan, as I perceive it, it not in your capabilities at the moment. No Plan is perfect, but in MY estimation the MB plan is the best. I could be wrong. If you disagree or need more research Keep's plans are available on other sites as you can read in my next post. Be advised, marital reconciliation is a process and generally there are NO quick fixes.

Mr. Wondering

That's cool if he wants to walk away, but I need to stop chasing him. I do feel that is pushing him away - I feel desperate - and I believe he percieves me that way as well and I don't want that...

I have been, to no avail, trying many things, none of which are working and I believe Keep's aproach is the best one for ME - at this time... I know if I do it I will make myself a stronger person - I just have to get there and get strong...

I have thought about switching plans, but have been in a solid Plan A for some time now - have not deviated...

You may be absolutely correct by saying that I may not be able to handle this approach, but I must at least give my H the perception that I am "letting go".... And that is what it will be - a perception...

I know there are no quick fixes, sucks but I do know it. I am just struggling being a full time mom and I am wearing very thin on the emotional side of things and I want my H and DD's daddy back...

All my friends, family, and my IC think I am a sap for what I am doing, and quite frankly I see thier point - cuz I do feel like a sap - and no man has the right to do that to me... Although I am fully aware that I am allowing it, but I don't want to allow it any more...

Keepmvn4wrd,

In the same post that Allison quoted above you also made this assertion:



Keep,

Unfortunately, the PRIMARY intent of this website board you find yourself posting on is a site dedicated to Marriage Builders principles. Those coming here, registered and unregistered alike can pick and choose the plan that suits them the most. After reviewing you history it seems you like to promote either Dr. R.H’s, Dobson and/or the AR dot com plan as your own, based upon your supposed own analysis (your old posts seem to quote Dr. RH's Break Free Plan). They are fine plans and great as a discussion points, however, in practice most BS’s do not find themselves in such great shape with such fine self-esteem to properly apply such plans. I surmise Dr. Harley has taken the condition of the BS into consideration when he developed his proven plan. IMO, Plan A is not supposed to be a door-mat plan. It is supposed to gradually guide the BS along a well laid out path towards becoming more confident, attractive, self-assured and prepared for Plan B, if and when Plan A fails.

(*sidenote - the Dr. RH's Break Free Plan is also copyrighted and it is a violation of the TOS to post copyrighted material)

BTW, the MB Plan A worked for me. In hindsight, a tough love plan most likely would have worked also...perhaps even faster than the MB plan, however, I was in the wrong state of mind to implement it. I was confused, shocked, angry, frustrated…you name it and I consider myself one of the most level headed secure positive individuals that I know. I have practically no family of origin issues and, all around, consider myself a pretty confident guy. I can only imagine the desperation felt by the WW at home with say 3 small children. To say simply be happy, get confident..just won’t work for them. So, the Marriage Builder plan is what I felt at the time, after much research and review of the other plans you seem to subscribe to, was best suited me and my situation and it worked beautifully.

Further, I noticed you’ve never had to deal with infidelity in your own personal life. It’s wonderful you stop by now and then and offer great “man up” advice but you are handicapped by your lack of experience to offer constructive advice at the right time to many a BS that arrive here at Marriage Builders. They simply come here confused and lost. They are simply not able to apply your suggested “self-confidence”, 180 degree approach. Whereas, Plan A can get them there. Many of us even post to Plan A’ers about the 180 degree approach and “self-confidence” approach while the BS’s are implementing and learning WITHIN Plan A. When we sense, based upon experience, what the best time to offer such advice is. (I am not claiming to be a professional, just experienced). The attitudes you suggest ARE effective but under Harley’s plan are introduced slowly and deliberately.

Marriage Builders is in my opinion, the best known, proven, path to marital recovery after and during infidelity…bar none. If you have actual statistics which demonstrate these other so-called plans that work better and faster, in practically every situation, please provide them and I will be the first to concede. It is very easy to sit back and say “Be self-confident, be happy, don’t pressure, etc.” but until the actual situation comes to roost in your house….you really don’t know how you’d respond. I surmise you’ve been fortunate enough to have done the work up front. You’ve learned and read the lessons and if infidelity came to roost in your home today...you’d do exactly as you preach...and you’d be successful at it. So you are right in a way, however, 99.99% of the posters that arrive here daily have not had that luck, forsight nor fortitude. They must process what you already know while in Plan A, and then deliver what you already know later in Plan A and more so later with Plan B.

My conclusion, your advice is good and well intentioned, I'm sure. You’re entitled to your opinions. However, I you should refrain from knocking Marriage Builders (especially on the actual website PROMOTING it) which you haven’t practiced in reality. I am glad you’ll likely never have use MB, but, just the same remember the PRIMARY intent of this message board is the discussion, delivery and implementation of Marriage Builders principles (as stated by TEMPEST). Knocking what we firmly believe is just swimming against the stream or preaching to the choir. I also believe it confuses the new arrivals and lurkers. In case you didn’t know, there are other sites dedicated to your beliefs.

Peace,

Mr. Wondering

Oh Dear - I hope I didn't start something bad here. Now I am feeling badly. I just feel that what Keep says may ave some merit - at least I would like to try it.

MrW - I appologize for stirring something up. I just look at every angle, and I believe I may want to try Keeps approch...

If I should be on a different site, let me know which. I truly enjoy and appreciate the quidance and advice I receive here (most taken, some not) and would like to continue to be a part of MB...

Alison, no one is saying you shouldn't be here but you need to stick with one plan and keep at it. It takes time, patience and determination to do a good solid plan A and then possibly move to plan B. Exposure being one of the key components to plan A.

No worries...Allison.

You've got mail (at least in a couple minutes you will).

Mr. W

Allison,

The point here is you need to stop trying to quick fix things. That is what you keep doing. Everything you see here is a timeframe plan. It's actions speaking louder than words. It's a life changing decision, not a band-aid.

You need to realize, you can be 'loving' to your WH, and not be needy or clingy. That is plan A. And, when you get to the point when you feel like you are the wife you want to be for him (while he is at his worst to you), you can then say, I'm taking a new step. And go into plan b.

Whatever you do, you need to realize, these are all things that generally take 3 months to 2 years to have their full effect. It's not a quick fix thing you're dealing with.

I would just like to state that some things work for some people and some things dont. The purpose of Plan A is to build me up, right?? Well - I still feel like a sap and I am feeling as though it may not be MY best course of action... I hope that is alright...?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I need to really focus on me - I will still be respectful of my H when I see him and follow Plan A when e comes to see DD, but I believe I must "let go" and be a bit distant...

It was funny this weekend when we were hanging out with friends - H freaked out a bit when he didn't know where I was... So maybe I just might need to try this a bit...

I really don't know what will work, but again, what I am doing is not cutting it for ME...

I would say that is right on. You have to make sure you are comfortable with it. Although, plan a does hurt like ****** at some points. And yes, it makes you feel like a sap at some points. And then, when it's all said and done, you can look back and say, you gave it your all.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be confrontational with you.

-hang in there

Rook - no confrontation felt at all on my part. I am just trying to let people know that I am doing the best I can for ME - it has to be exactly what you said, "what I am comfortable with"

I will still do Plan A when he comes to see DD, but I am going to try to distance myself a bit... I have to do that for me - not to necessarily try to get him back, but I have to let go a bit or literally will drive myself crazy!!

And thank you for looking in on me... This is a tough road!!

I am not sure I am qualified to give advice since Mr. Wondering seems to think that the only people who are qualified are the ones who have had an affair in their life.
HHHMMMM, I wonder when Dr. Harley went through Plan A and Plan B.. OOOOHHH well, what do I know huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am glad Plan A worked for you Mr. Wondering. Believe it or not, I only care about reality. Reality has taught me to do what works and to stop doing what does not work. You keep doing what you are doing if it is working. I applaud you...

Now for Allison....

Allison,
There is nothing and I MEAN NOTHING, negative about being more confident and showing more self esteem. It matters not whether you want to call it Plan A, or Plan B or Plan confident. Call it anything you want. It is ALWAYS to your advantage to appear confident in matters of the heart. You and I both know that even a small child can somehow detect lack of confidence. So, don't let others tell you different.
I have seen a few on here who have done plan A and plan B and saved their relationship who I have SEEN with my own eyes say they WOULD NOT DO IT AGAIN if their spouse had another affair. I wonder why they would say this if they are so sold on it?




No. It is natural and real. Most people do NOT want their spouse to have an affair.



Don't beat yourself up. That is one of the first steps to positive self esteem. He does however have the "right" to lie. He can choose to lie to his little heart's desire.It is HIS choice, not yours You do however have the "right" to not be happy about the lies. The question should be, what does a person do when they are getting lied to, is it not?



Of course he has the "right" to be angry. This is what always stumps me about the BS. They feel they have a right to be angry, (and they do) but that the WS has no right to be angry about snooping. It is a false assumption that does nothing but keep you in a selfish bondage. Let him have whatever feelings he has. Let him be who he is. He wants to lie, so be it. He wants to be angry, so be it. No biggie. You are a big girl, you can handle it. Let go. Lighten up. Let him be angry, sad, miserable, happy.... He isn't your "project". Is not the question again... How do you handle a person who lies and is angry and is having an affair?


AH HA..... THAT is the question. I will give you MY opinion.
This opinion is based on reading EVERYTHING and ANYTHING I could get my hands on about this very subject for many years. I DO know the Marriage Builders principles as well as most. I have studied and observed them. I have watched THOUSANDS of people on this site try and explain and try to work them. It is a GREAT program. Harley says in his opening remarks on this site that ANYBODY (I think that would include me) can participate on this site. He recommends they are familiar with the concepts. (I am)
I don't see anywhere that I can't give other solid advice that have SAVED THOUSNDS of other marriages. I am on the side of saving marriages. That is what is important.

Should you accept the affair?

YES. You ARE going to be ok. Maybe this is the best thing that ever happened. Accept it. MILLIONS of people have been hurt by affairs. The question again is....What is accepting it and what do I do now, right?




Letting go does not mean you are not fighting for your marriage any more or less than anger and crying and pleading means that you are fighting for it. The question is to do WHAT WORKS to bring them back to the fold.

If plan A works so well, then why is it RARE to have the spouse come back while in plan A? Why is it when you are trying to meet their needs, they stay away and wiggle waggle and when you go to plan B and stop meeting their needs that they come back?

This is part of the problem. People are sometimes too focused on the word "needs". The TRUTH is that they are not really needs, but PREFERENCES. It is only a preference that he not lie to you. It is not a need. A need is something you have to have to live. An honest, affair free relationshipo is not a need, but only a preference. When you start to look at it in those terms you start to understand that I AM CORRECT. It really is only a preference.

What if your WS has the "need" for you to leave him alone so that he can see how much you mean to him? How do we know that isn't a need? How do we know he doesn't have the need to have 2 women in his life? What if that is one of his needs? See what I am saying?




Thank you. I have helped a lot of people. It is hard on this site because so many people get defensive because I dare to say it is ok for you to stand up and show confidence and a little backbone by laying it on the line.
They have not been paying attention because I have witnessed almost as many people on this site that have ONLY COME TO THIS SITE BECAUSE THEIR WS HAS USED THE VERY PRINCIPLES I AM TALKING ABOUT ON THEM.

Notice how confident the WS seems to the BS when we listen to the betrayed on this site. Notice how the BS wants to chase and pursue and beg and plead despite the way they are treated? Where was there plan A approach that got YOU doing this?

I haven't noticed too many WS having to plan A when they are in an affair to get the BS to love them and yet this site is filled with people wanting someone who they PERCEIVED TO HAVE LET GO.

I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place and my personal indecision is what is actually hurting the situation the most [/quote]


What I think you should do right now is have a gradual change in attitude that your WS can't put his finger on.(know the feeling?)

Let's call it plan A ok? I will study your situation tonight and tell you what I believe is your BEST chance to save your marriage. Many of Harley's principles are involved. I would hate to have too many people with their undies in a bunch, so let us call it plan A huh?

If I see others piping in and trying to mix you up, then I WILL bow out. I realize that you did ask me for my thoughts, but there is usually others on here who have a hard time letting a relationship be helped unless it is there perception of what a poster should do.

Go and read ole 2 long's saga and observe what your heart tells you about that.

Read about Mimi. I piped in with a few suggestions that she used.

Go read about FoxOr. I told him how to handle his situation. Once he followed it, of course she came back....
He then of course blew it again, but that is beside the point...

Check out the thread from Jen Brown.
She had an affair. Her husband did NOT plan A her. He told her to move out. He did not plan B her. She chased him for around 2 years, and the last I knew, still was hoping she could get him back. He just told her to go because she had an affair. Read it from the perspective of what HE did. I see no plan A or plan B...

It is up to YOU to do and follow the approach you want to use. I only want you to save your marriage. I could care less what method you use as long as it works. It matters not who gets the credit or what. If it looks like a doormat, feels like a doormat, and gets stepped on by others, then I call it a doormat. You do NOT have to let someone continue to have an affair on you and sit back and wait it out while you are dying inside. Your choice. Let me know what you need from me and I will be glad to help. I do however not want to get into another Harley vs Keepmvn4wrd.
I think he is fantastic. I think I am too....


Good luck...

keep,

actually your words are more plan A than you think. This is my piggest complaint. Plan A isn't about being a doormat, and being needy and clingy. Plan A is about showing your spouse love, but still placing boundaries. Plan A is about become a better you - looking, feeling better all while still loving your spouse - meaning no LB, or DJ...It's not about just keepign quiet and allowing your spouse to walk all over you.

And Keep - a TRUE plan A will help <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and if not - a TRUE plan A will set up for a good Plan B - where you are ready to walk out.

Unfortunately - like my other posts states, we have alot of coddlers and alot of people who don't get the Harley's advice or really read about Plan A...and don't REALLY do a plan A. It's what MANY people are trying to tell Alison - is that she is NOT in Plan A...She is in PLan Alison.

I do believe MB works...but also know it doesn't for everyone. But it wont work if you are modifying it to fit what makes you most comfortable, and it doesn't work when you are being a doormat for your WS.

So I agree with your post about confidence etc - you shoudl REALLY read up on Plan A as Plan A does teach that...before you critisize it. Critisize people's INTERPRETATION of Plan A, but not PLan A itself...

Keep - thank you so much. I will not accept your bowing out if this stirs up anything - you will simply just have to email me... With your wifes permission - crap did I just say that?? Yup - I did... Anyway - I am NOT trying to bust up anyones marriage so please only help via email if you are comfortable with it...

Once you read my story - There are a few threads from me, but I think the one that tells the most background is the one titled "Is He Cheating"......

Right now I am getting a TON of flack about not being in a true Plan A, but you know what - I AM DOING THE BEST PLAN A that I CAN.....

And Honestly - I am feeling like a doormat and I do not want to anymore...

I want my confidence back and the Plan A that I am doing is not giving me that...

I realize that many of these situations are similar, and yes my H is a WH, but Plan A may not really be working on him... And I know it is not really working on me - and I AM THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON RIGHT NOW!!!

Sorry Keep - I am not yelling at you - just quietly screaming so I can get it into my own head!!!

Thank you for your support!!!

Alison

I am not saying you are wrong or incapable. I agree with nearly all you write. I think your timing is off on some threads I have reviewed and I merely chalk that up to lack of personal experience or attention to an entire thread. But, to come to the Marriage Builder's site and slam Marriage Builder's (yada, yada, yada), in my opinion, IS disrespectful. Further, to promote other plans as if they are your own, to portray yourself as experienced when you are not, to suggest specific successes as blanket authority and to not be cognizant of the fact that you do not have THE answer for everyone is a bit over the top...in my opinion. It is welcome...it's a public board, I merely call you on it so others are perhaps not distracted.

We are on the same team. We are both here to save marriages and I have no interest in continuing into some protracted argument about this issue. I posted my opinion and I think my post to you was effective...you changed your ways in the post above and put "your plan" within the context of Plan A. That is effective...and, in my opinion, the best way to deliver your effective ideas and principles for saving marriages on this website. Thank you.

No worries,

Mr. Wondering